Europe wants the UK to leave the EU

[Pidesco]

A European superstate is the only thing that keep can Europe from sliding into political and economical irrelevance. Not wanting it is just silly nationalism/patriotism.

[Morgoth]

A European superstate is the only thing that keep can Europe from sliding into political and economical irrelevance. Not wanting it is just silly nationalism/patriotism.

This way of thinking is a fallacy. Why create another US model when we already see that the US of A is slowly disintegrating? We don't want to go down that road.

 

It's no wonder the EU parliament is located in Brussels. It's this Brussels mentality (actually coming from France) that endorses centralization. Very dangerous I'm afraid.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Morgoth

[Walsingham]

A European superstate is the only thing that keep can Europe from sliding into political and economical irrelevance. Not wanting it is just silly nationalism/patriotism.

 

I really don't see how that's sensible, I'm afraid. A coalition of the willing is more effective in exerting power than a federation of the unwilling. IMO.

 

Plus it's not as if our individual military or economic power can be simply regarded as irrelevant. France, Germany, the UK. We all have the ability to project influence.

 

If being effective on the global stage is your objective then we'd need to come up with a coherent philosophy to bind our actions together. At present we have uneasy partnership between greed and bleeding hearts. Neither is in our - or anyone else's - interests.

[Nepenthe]

Plus it's not as if our individual military or economic power can be simply regarded as irrelevant. France, Germany, the UK. We all have the ability to project influence.

Well, a couple more rounds of austerity measures and you won't.

[Meshugger]

The only thing that the EU should be is a free-market zone with a parliament that consisting of members of each member state that make laws conserning trade. A common european court of human rights are needed as well to enforce the trade laws.

 

Any regular citizen EU knows this ands wants it that way. It is only the beaurocrats, half-wits and the megalomaniacs that wish for centralization of power and for resignation of sovereign state rights.

[Calax]

A European superstate is the only thing that keep can Europe from sliding into political and economical irrelevance. Not wanting it is just silly nationalism/patriotism.

No it's not.

[pmp10]

A European superstate is the only thing that keep can Europe from sliding into political and economical irrelevance. Not wanting it is just silly nationalism/patriotism.

No it's not.

So what is the alternative?

[HoonDing]

A European superstate is the only thing that keep can Europe from sliding into political and economical irrelevance. Not wanting it is just silly nationalism/patriotism.

No it's not.

So what is the alternative?

Running around in circles screaming.

[Gorgon]

What this crisis has demonstrated is that we are interlinked economically regardless of the common market. Now we were actually able to do something about Greece's near collapse, and it's not very likely we would have been as effective if Greece had not been a member of the EU.

 

If we are to grasp a more firm hold of the banking system and investment groups to prevent the markets spinning out of control again we need some kind of international economic policy and and an organ to enforce the rules. The very notion is at odds with the concept of national governments and seems like a fantasy, but actually the EU has been paving the ground with the euro for some time. We are getting used to the notion of solving problems together. Corporations function across national borders, legislation has to do the same to have any hope of being effective.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Gorgon

[HoonDing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcMddMTk0lM

[Guard Dog]

A European superstate is the only thing that keep can Europe from sliding into political and economical irrelevance. Not wanting it is just silly nationalism/patriotism.

No it's not.

Agreed. Nations are supposed to be about more than arbitrary lines on a map. There should be something that unites the people who live there like a common language, culture, core of beliefs. Nations that are artificial constructs that are forced together inevitably collapse. Yugoslavia comes to mind as an example. Don't get me wrong, the EU as an economic free trade zone/alliance makes a lot of sense. That is a very different thing than taking the full plunge as I have alwys thought the ultimate goal of the powers that be in the EU had in mind. Asking nation states that date back to the era of Rome to give up their national sovreignty to a European "super-state" is asking for too much. I know I'd oppose any such a thing here in North America. With arms if need be.

[Tigranes]

Asking nation states that date back to the era of Rome

 

They don't. Some do, in some form, but not most, and not in this manner.

 

Nationalism certainly isn't 'silly', though. If the EU tries to push itself as a superstate with that kind of dismissive thinking they'll be sabotaging their own project, fatally. I do think we'll see both regionalization and local fracturing at different levels and rates in our lifetimes, but not in the next 10-20 years.

[Guard Dog]

Asking nation states that date back to the era of Rome

 

They don't. Some do, in some form, but not most, and not in this manner.

 

 

In terms of language, culture and shared history I think it's fair to say many are that old. In terms of governments, no they are not of course.

[HoonDing]

Nations that are artificial constructs that are forced together inevitably collapse.

[Walsingham]

The only thing that the EU should be is a free-market zone with a parliament that consisting of members of each member state that make laws conserning trade. A common european court of human rights are needed as well to enforce the trade laws.

 

Any regular citizen EU knows this ands wants it that way. It is only the beaurocrats, half-wits and the megalomaniacs that wish for centralization of power and for resignation of sovereign state rights.

 

Thing is, Meshugger, you can argue almost anything comes under trade. Employment law, equal opportunities, discrimination, banks, pensions. I'm not saying you can't have a free trade area that doesn't go bananas. But putting a parliament and court on it is two of the 3-5 arms of state.

~

Gorgon if I understand you, you are suggesting that it's a good thing Greece is in the EU or we couldn't fix them. But if they hadn't joined the EU they'd have never gone on such a ludicrous spending spree in the first place.

 

As for justifying the EU as the only way to nail down international finance that's a pure chimera. You'd need to nail down the _entire world_ to do that. And somehow I don't see people going for that. Not to mention that the 'science' of economic control struggles at the national level, let alone trans-national.

[Guard Dog]

Nations that are artificial constructs that are forced together inevitably collapse.

Hmmm, ok I might be a little rusty in my European history but didn't Belgium fight a brief revolution to seperate itself from the Netherlands? Not what I'd call a contrived state created by outside powers following a treaty.

[HoonDing]

Nations that are artificial constructs that are forced together inevitably collapse.

Hmmm, ok I might be a little rusty in my European history but didn't Belgium fight a brief revolution to seperate itself from the Netherlands? Not what I'd call a contrived state created by outside powers following a treaty.

It was birthed when a handful of French speaking bourgeoisie got a bit too drunk while watching a badly-written play.

 

Still, after the "revolution" (comedy of errors would be more exact) the country was created during the Treaty of London mainly as a buffer between France and the Netherlands.

[Morgoth]

I know I'd oppose any such a thing here in North America. With arms if need be.

[Raithe]

One of the key elements thats troubling Greece.. is how bloody few of the people who live there actually pay their taxes.

 

It's a national sport to avoid paying your taxes. It's one of the key reasons the government there has always struggled to keep a budget afloat.

 

So say by some miraculous measure the EU actually works.. how long is it going to work, or be considered fair, if all the taxpaying Germans (for example) are paying money into the EU that goes to keep Greece afloat because those citizens aren't actually keeping up their tax end?

 

Of course, as was pointed out earlier.. The UK is one of the biggest contributors to the EU budget as it were, and one of the few that has actually provided the money on time rather then in dribs, drabs and constantly putting it off..

 

I'm really seeing the financial responsibility and economic wunderkinds at work with this history..

 

 

Edit: You always know it's getting late when you start twisting your grammar around..

Edited December 13, 2011 by Raithe

[Calax]

Couldn't the EU eject Greece from its ranks?

[Morgoth]

Couldn't the EU eject Greece from its ranks?

This is not what Josef Ackermann & Co. want.

[Humodour]

Couldn't the EU eject Greece from its ranks?

 

I don't think there exists any mechanism to eject an EU member state. Greece would have to leave voluntarily (i.e. under intense monetary pressure).

[Nepenthe]

Nations that are artificial constructs that are forced together inevitably collapse.

Considering they just took a year and a half to form a government, Guard Dog might not be far from the mark.

[Walsingham]

LOL. I'd forgotten about that.

 

It's an interesting one, asking when a nation isn't one. Given the vast majority of deaths in the 20th century were caused in civil wars (ref?) you'd think we might have given it more thought. Possibly a case of opposed forces. The strengths of the official state set aginst the strengths of all the breakaway movements.