A theological question of gaming

[Calax]

Probably. A polytheistic religion (or even a monotheistic religion in a polytheistic world) doesn't necessarily preclude the existence of other gods. I can believe that my gods created me, my land my people, and my nation while believing that you have your own set of creators who did the same for you. This is probably similar to what most people believed in the Near East in ancient times.

True, but then you run into the land of contradictions that David Eddings enjoyed yutzing with in that many monotheistic religions borrow heavily from Christianity, and include "There is no god but my god" as a tennant of their religion. Ignoring if their god is currently arm wrestling the gnomish god of stupid in the corner of a seedy bar.

[Ice9]

I have no idea David Eddings is. I was hoping that you were talking about Dave Eggers, but no such luck.

 

But that comment was about D&D universe which is biased by the three years or I so I was playing in a Planescape campaign. I never got the impression that belief in a set of deities was mutually exclusive. In fact, I kind of assumed ignorance on the part of most creatures. I figured with an infinite number of Prime worlds you're bound to have tons of Gods from worlds, that had never met each other, in conflict in the Outer Planes. Sometimes, I'd wager, these Gods even have overlapping spheres of influence. Though it could be that my perspective is far too zoomed out to get a sense of of the situation on the ground.

[greylord]

I think some have a big difference of ideas over religion is.

 

Catholics are not a religion, they are a church.

 

Lutherans are not a religion, they are a church.

 

They may claim they are religions, and they are...but in reality...they are a church.

 

They are the Christian religion and clumped into that group by others.

 

Islam is another religion, though most Christians probably do not realize that there are MANY different Churches/religious organizations in that religion.

 

Hindu is another religions with many different factions/churches.

 

Islam does not recognize Hindus as having any validity in religion or that any Hindu deity even exists.

 

Hindu is a polytheistic religion. They may worship different beings or aspects, or even have household spirits...but it is all one religion regardless of who or what they worship.

 

Greeks had a polytheistic religion with a pantheon. Some of them worshipped one deity, others another deity. These deities many times were opposed to each other and there were wars by the Greeks in this idea. However, they are ALL part of the same religion, even if they worshipped different deities.

 

The Norse had different deities and did not recognize the Greek deities as far as I know. They were a different religion.

 

Just because people worship different deities in a pantheistic religion, does not make them different religions. If they recognize another deity/being as part of their pantheon or religious ethos/dictates they actually are considered part of that religious umbrella. On the otherhand, different religions typically do NOT recognize the other religion's deities and hence will consider the other religions false.

[Volourn]

 

Acknowledging anothe diety exists doesn't been you are aprt of that goid's religious sect. That's silly talk.

 

 

[Calax]

I have no idea David Eddings is. I was hoping that you were talking about Dave Eggers, but no such luck.

 

But that comment was about D&D universe which is biased by the three years or I so I was playing in a Planescape campaign. I never got the impression that belief in a set of deities was mutually exclusive. In fact, I kind of assumed ignorance on the part of most creatures. I figured with an infinite number of Prime worlds you're bound to have tons of Gods from worlds, that had never met each other, in conflict in the Outer Planes. Sometimes, I'd wager, these Gods even have overlapping spheres of influence. Though it could be that my perspective is far too zoomed out to get a sense of of the situation on the ground.

Eddings is a rather prolific author, I don't really like him because the book feels like the entire world is set up as his fantasy, and the main character is obviously an author insertion persona (the best warrior, super politician, married to a political bombshell 30 years his junior...)

 

 

Acknowledging anothe diety exists doesn't been you are aprt of that goid's religious sect. That's silly talk.

No, but most of the churches in media I've seen either don't touch on the gods being connected, or if they do then "there is no god but god" comes in and is used as a dramatic tool to create conflict.

[Tale]

At this point I'm going to need examples. Because I still don't see it.

[Calax]

In media in general for the point I posted the best examples is Edding's Elene church (which is an idealized view of catholics/christians), the other gods and dieties aren't allowed to be discussed except in very oblique terms.

 

The two closest examples to the monolithic churches I've been talking about would be the church in FFXIII (complete with a pope!) and the church of the light in Warcraft.

 

Although Warcrafts theology is one giant cluster F*** so...

[Tale]

In Warcraft, there's still more than just the Church of Light. Trolls and Orcs have their own systems. And the Church of Light's god isn't running around doing anything. As far as I've been made aware, they don't actually have a god to do that with, instead worshiping the concept of light as good. In what way does it manage to hold the entire world or be "perfectly real?" Dwarves and trolls both have a diversity, with shaman and priests.

 

Final Fantasy XIII definitely does have active gods and a certain Catholic semblence. But I'm not sure that the one game makes it so pervasive.

[Cantousent]

You've got me there, Ice. I was probably being a bit too northern and western European centric. Still, while there was conflict between Islam and Catholicism in various places in Europe to the south and east, my understanding is that Christianity was essentially unchallenged as the primary religion in those places that did not fall under political rule of Islamic forces.

 

You've also got me, grey. It's one of my wife's pet peeves that we call different Christian churches religions in and of themselves. What I always tell her is that it's just kind of the way we talk about it these days. Probably we should do what a couple of you guys have done which is to define the terms so we're all talking about the same things as much as possible.

 

With that in mind, to Ice's point, there's a difference between the turks fighting Christians in the Mediteranean and a signficant threat to Christians in those same lands by popular upswelling of Islamic sentiment in the populations. Those popular risings might have happened. I don't have a particularly strong background in the time period. ...But don't give one off examples and claim a rule.

 

In the world today we have kind of a buffet style attitude towards faith a lot of the time as it seems to me and still I think most folks nominally claim the same religion and church as their parents. That's just gut instinct though.

[Calax]

In Warcraft, there's still more than just the Church of Light. Trolls and Orcs have their own systems. And the Church of Light's god isn't running around doing anything. As far as I've been made aware, they don't actually have a god to do that with, instead worshiping the concept of light as good. In what way does it manage to hold the entire world or be "perfectly real?" Dwarves and trolls both have a diversity, with shaman and priests.

Actually, they do. The "Light" has basically been retconned into being the invocation of the Na'ru (after being retconned from God). Like I said, it's a bit of a quagmire to start digging into the Warcraft mythology as they tend to sorta splatter all over the place in what is a god, what isn't, and which ones are at the top of the tree.

 

Final Fantasy XIII definitely does have active gods and a certain Catholic semblence. But I'm not sure that the one game makes it so pervasive.

Xenogears/saga also has it (although not as pervasive... and you do kill God.) Suikoden... actually, many of the Japanese rpgs in the world have a single religious system in place. It's either based off of the Bhuddist or the christian models (admittedly, half their games have huge references to christianity built in).

 

Most western RPG's are derivative works from PNP or books. I mean you could argue that Jedi is the single unifying theism of Star Wars, and let's not get started on the God-Emperor of Mankind.

[Cantousent]

I was just thinking about the stuff in this thread and it occurs to me that good ol' paganism was still a chief rival to Christianity in well into the middle ages. If you call the period between, say 410 and 1250AD the middle ages, then you have a lot of conflict there and there was also the rift between eastern and western Christianity. ...And still, once Roman Catholicism took hold in essentially uncontested places, the real conflict came from within the religion, not from outside unless contested by force of arms. I'm sure the same is true of Eastern Orthodox and Islam.

 

That's kind of what I was talking about with pmp. Once a particular faith (I'll avoid using 'religion' as a nod to grey) become part of the culture, it's harder to take it out without something a little stronger than words to back up the argument. Today it's probably easier because culture is probably a lot less static in a society with ready access to a wealth of ideas and information.

[Tale]

Most western RPG's are derivative works from PNP or books.

Which don't really support it. Forgotten Realms has several entire pantheons as previously noted. And Elder Scrolls has belief systems vary by regions. The Dunmer in particular used to practice ancestor worship before the Triumverate ascended. And parts of that tradition are maintained.

 

I mean you could argue that Jedi is the single unifying theism of Star Wars,

Star Wars is largely secular. The Force is the only religious belief exposed at all. But even Han was skeptical of it. It's far from unifying. You see no non-Jedi giving it any consideration.

 

and let's not get started on the God-Emperor of Mankind.

40K has at least three competing belief systems for humans. The Imperial Truth, Imperial Cult, and Chaos. Only one of which is currently dominant for the Imperium, granted. And one of which is practically wiped out completely.

 

Oh, and the AdMech's belief systems.

[Calax]

Most western RPG's are derivative works from PNP or books.

Which don't really support it. Forgotten Realms has several entire pantheons as previously noted. And Elder Scrolls has belief systems vary by regions. The Dunmer in particular used to practice ancestor worship before the Triumverate ascended. And parts of that tradition are maintained.

But as we discussed, when the gods are real you can't really call them different religions when you're watching Thor chokeslam Zeus into a tree. At least in my mind. I mean we see things in history where the competing religions have been morphed into a minor religion of the primary (where gods of pagans have become saints under Christianity).

and let's not get started on the God-Emperor of Mankind.

40K has at least three competing belief systems for humans. The Imperial Truth, Imperial Cult, and Chaos. Only one of which is currently dominant for the Imperium, granted. And one of which is practically wiped out completely.

Oh, and the AdMech's belief systems.

But they all Worship the God-Emperor. That's made explicitly clear in the fluff. Well except for Chaos, but even Chaos can't deny that the Emperor is able to work miracles.

[Tale]

But as we discussed, when the gods are real you can't really call them different religions when you're watching Thor chokeslam Zeus into a tree. At least in my mind. I mean we see things in history where the competing religions have been morphed into a minor religion of the primary (where gods of pagans have become saints under Christianity).

What part of ancestor worship is not a different religion? Many people question the Triumverate's divinity. Or the Daedra's. Religion isn't simply about what gods exist, but whether they are gods. And the Dunmer didn't accept the Emperor's divinity, either.

 

If all it takes is simply accepting that someone exists, then Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and ancient Egyptian myth are the same religion. Because they referenced real people. Unless you think there were no Pharaohs.

 

But they all Worship the God-Emperor. That's made explicitly clear in the fluff. Well except for Chaos, but even Chaos can't deny that the Emperor is able to work miracles.

That's not made clear in the fluff. The Imperial Truth worships no one. It is an atheist belief. The Cult of the Machine worships the Machine God, which may very well be a C'Tan. They are exempt from the Imperial Cult. They simply accept the Emperor as the Machine God's representative.

 

And Chaos do deny that the Emperor can work miracles. They believe he's nothing but a sack of dead flesh.

[HoonDing]

The Ashlanders in Morrowind do not question that the Tribunal are gods, they just consider them false gods. And they are, because they murdered Nerevar and stole the power of Lorkhan.

 

When at one point Vivec submerged all of Morrowind under water to fight off the Akaviri, not to mention holding a meteor up into the sky for centuries, it's hard to argue against it (not to mention, the Ghostfence).

 

In both D&D and Elder Scrolls setting mortals can ascend into godhood.

Edited October 24, 2011 by virumor

[Gorth]

Only one of which is currently dominant for the Imperium

Blood for the Blood God!

 

Umm, never mind. You Emperor forsaken heretics are all going to burn.

 

I find it strange that by the definitions currently used in this thread, the "Abrahamic" religions are considered different religions, yet they all worship the same God. The devil is in the detail

[HoonDing]

I find it strange that by the definitions currently used in this thread, the "Abrahamic" religions are considered different religions, yet they all worship the same God. The devil is in the detail

Good luck trying to convince one of the followers of those religions of that, though.

 

[pmp10]

I find it strange that by the definitions currently used in this thread, the "Abrahamic" religions are considered different religions, yet they all worship the same God. The devil is in the detail

Just because you call your supreme being 'God' doesn't mean you form a part of the same religion.

The theological differences between Judaism Christianity and Islam are far too large to be considered a mere detail.

[Gorth]

I find it strange that by the definitions currently used in this thread, the "Abrahamic" religions are considered different religions, yet they all worship the same God. The devil is in the detail

Just because you call your supreme being 'God' doesn't mean you form a part of the same religion.

The theological differences between Judaism Christianity and Islam are far too large to be considered a mere detail.

I know, but that is not what the rest of the panel is advocating

 

E.g. I didn't think Elves and Dwarves had the same religion, just because they happened to exist in the same universe.

 

Edit: On the other hand...

 

[Cantousent]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that elves and orcs are part of the same religion even if they both believe in the actual existence of the same gods, Gorth, but I do believe they share one pantheon. Maybe it's just a classical language thing, but there isn't an elvish pantheon and an orc one. I guess it's just a definition thing, but the word pantheon is all inclusive of the gods. It's the very definition of the word. There isn't an elvish 'everygod' and an orcish 'everygod.' The elves have a subset of gods and the orcs have a subset of gods from the same pantheon. If, as I think grey said earlier, the elves denied the existence of the orc gods and the orcs denied the existence of the elvish gods, then there would be an elvish pantheon and an orcish pantheon.

 

As far as the Abrahamic religions go, I think they are literally different religions but similarity of belief often makes for worse fighting than something completely foreign. That's especially true because similar religions often grow up in the same neighborhood and are forced to duke it out with each other long before the winner gets the chance to export the 'real truth.' I will tell you, I don't recall the last time someone personally (not meaning television or writing, but someone I know in real life) attacked my Roman Catholicism who wasn't either atheist or Protestant. I've not always been kind or even fair when arguing with Protestants either, at least when I was younger, I tend to take the longer view as I age. Anyhow, my point is that you don't feel the need for a turf war with someone who doesn't threaten your turf.

[Gorth]

Anyhow, my point is that you don't feel the need for a turf war with someone who doesn't threaten your turf.

I know a couple of bikie gangs that feel differently...

 

Maybe it's a source of confusion that pantheon and religion seems to be used interchangeably?

 

In the real world example, the Abrahamic Religions share a common history, all acknowledging the same God as creator of the world and mankind, right down to agreeing that they are all children of Abraham. In monotheism pantheon and religion is similar to a degree, at least on a superficial level.

 

To quote my Oxford Dictionary quote:

 

[mass noun] the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power , especially a personal God or gods:

ideas about the relationship between science and religion

[count noun] a particular system of faith and worship:

the world

[pmp10]

I.e. whether you chose "the belief in and worship of..." or "a particular system of faith and worship", it seems more about the way you worship and who you worship that define "religion".

That's a completely unnecessary definition.

Every single religion has it's tenants of faith that list exactly what beliefs are necessary to be considered a part of it.

It's pretty simple - if you don't believe in Jesus Christ being a son of god and his subsequent martyrdom/resurrection you cannot be considered a Christian.

Likewise if you reject Mohammed as a prophet you can't be considered a Muslim.

Differences in crucial tenants of faith point out to splits between religions.

On the other hand the differences in which part of the pantheon to worship and the manner of that worship is a sectarian difference.

The split between Catholic Protestant and Orthodox churches is a prime example of Christian sects going about worship in different ways.

 

If a group of fantasy races have the same core beliefs that are not mutually exclusive then they are a part of the same religion.

If in that worship they concentrate on different deities and use different ritual it just means that they belong to different sects.

[Gorth]

That's a completely unnecessary definition.

Possibly. It's not me you need to convince though, but the gentlemen who wrote the Oxford Dictionary

 

Differences in crucial tenants of faith point out to splits between religions.

On the other hand the differences in which part of the pantheon to worship and the manner of that worship is a sectarian difference.

Isn't that sort of contradictory? I would think whether or not to worship a particular god or not a crucial part of a faiths tenets. That would make Judaism, Christianity and Islam a sectarian difference according to your second line, yet different religions according to your first line.

 

If a group of fantasy races have the same core beliefs that are not mutually exclusive then they are a part of the same religion.

If in that worship they concentrate on different deities and use different ritual it just means that they belong to different sects.

If you believe that you in the afterlife go to the halls of Grimnir as a dead dwarf and believe that you go to the gardens Morr as a good human Empire citizen, would you simply call that different sects?

[pmp10]

Differences in crucial tenants of faith point out to splits between religions.

On the other hand the differences in which part of the pantheon to worship and the manner of that worship is a sectarian difference.

Isn't that sort of contradictory? I would think whether or not to worship a particular god or not a crucial part of a faiths tenets. That would make Judaism, Christianity and Islam a sectarian difference according to your second line, yet different religions according to your first line.

Err no.

I wrote a part of an pantheon.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam could be sects of the same religion if Yahweh God-father and Allah formed a pantheon.

 

If a group of fantasy races have the same core beliefs that are not mutually exclusive then they are a part of the same religion.

If in that worship they concentrate on different deities and use different ritual it just means that they belong to different sects.

If you believe that you in the afterlife go to the halls of Grimnir as a dead dwarf and believe that you go to the gardens Morr as a good human Empire citizen, would you simply call that different sects?

Why would there be any conflict in that case?

I see no problem in belief that different people go to different places after death.

In fact religions usually describe different forms of afterlife depending on the way our earthly lives go.

If good people can go to heaven and bad people to hell why would a separate afterlife for humans and dwarfs lead to a schism?

Edited October 25, 2011 by pmp10

[Gorth]

I wrote a part of an pantheon.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam could be sects of the same religion if Yahweh God-father and Allah formed a pantheon.

Well, that's the thing. They all three worship the one and same God, regardless of what name they attached to their subject of worship. In broad terms, Judaism don't believe Messiah has been born yet. Christians believe He was born and died approx. 2000 years ago. Muslims believe Jesus, while being a messenger from God (Prophet) wasn't the Messiah and got a bunch of new texts to read. Still the same God of Abraham and his offspring they are talking about (i.e. a pantheon of one). Hence my comment about the devil being in the detail. It seems more about semantics as to what constitutes "crucial tenants of faith"(sic). I.e. if a Christian acknowledges that Buddha lived and tought his ideas, does that make Christians and Buddhists the same religion?

 

Why would there be any conflict in that case?

I see no problem in belief that different people go to different places after death.

In fact religions usually describe different forms of afterlife depending on the way our earthly lives go.

If good people can go to heaven and bad people to hell why would a separate afterlife for humans and dwarfs lead to a schism?

I still don't agree that in the example, Dwarves and Elves have the same religion (because of the differences in the tenets of faith). If the dwarven god says trees are filthy weeds and should be chopped down while the elven god says trees are holy spirits and should be hugged, you have some seriously different tenets of faith.

 

If you don't agree, I'll just declare you a heretic in the Church of Gorthology and keep disagreeing

 

By the way, what is a church in this particular context? The same as a religion? Calax's original question was about single mega churches (I doubt he had cathedrals in mind). Poor guy probably played too much Dragon Age.