Libya 2

[Tale]

End of old thread

 

So how about that Ghaddafi, eh?

[213374U]

If we only see a few dictatorships fall every generation then it won't be long before humanity as a whole may be liberated. And I call that ****ing awesome.

Even if they are only replaced by nominal democracies that work for all intents and purposes like the regimes they toppled? Even if they are plunged into an intermittent state of civil war? Even if living standards take a hit for all but the leading "revolutionaries"? Even if it leads to an anti-Western sentiment across the board?

 

Okay, so then, other than the obvious lucrative reconstruction, weapons and raw materials contracts, how exactly is that a success? A success for whom, anyway?

 

 

^Fear the kangaroo rat?

That's the Desert Rats shoulder patch from, you know, way back when Brits actually fought fascism. I think the reference is in kinda poor taste...

[Gromnir]

If we only see a few dictatorships fall every generation then it won't be long before humanity as a whole may be liberated. And I call that ****ing awesome.

Even if they are only replaced by nominal democracies that work for all intents and purposes like the regimes they toppled? Even if they are plunged into an intermittent state of civil war? Even if living standards take a hit for all but the leading "revolutionaries"? Even if it leads to an anti-Western sentiment across the board?

 

Okay, so then, other than the obvious lucrative reconstruction, weapons and raw materials contracts, how exactly is that a success? A success for whom, anyway?

 

 

^Fear the kangaroo rat?

That's the Desert Rats shoulder patch from, you know, way back when Brits actually fought fascism. I think the reference is in kinda poor taste...

 

you offer more than a few worst-case-scenario "ifs," no? and yeah, the stability that some dictators provide should not be dismissed. is very easy for folks in the west to dismiss some simple freedoms such as freedom from starvation. is sacrifice o' freedom o' expression worth a chicken in every pot? *shrug* nevertheless, Q was having increasing difficulty providing basic needs while still denying liberties we take for granted in the west. he were gonna fail eventual, which is why even the oil companies such as bp and eni were willing to support rebels in spite o' the fact that they had contracts with Q. also, am thinking you ignore that removal o' a dictator like Q, who overt funded and provided sanctuary for terrorist operations, is gonna result in a decrease in regional terrorist concerns... at least in the near future.

 

we will concede that there will be an inevitable increase in violent crime perpetrated by citizens following the removal o' a dictator or totalitarian regime. people gets freedom for first time in many years and some elements is bound to use such freedom to do bad.

 

Gromnir is not a Freedom At Any Price guy. pine ridge suffered from what amounts to 3rd world standard o' living; gave us perspective. watch children die o' easily curable diseases and suffer from malnutrition makes stuff like representative democracy and freedom o' speech seems like luxuries. would Gromnir trade liberty for the security? no, but we not have a wife or kids. is easy for Gromnir to be all enlightened and superior, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 24, 2011 by Gromnir

[Gfted1]

pine ridge...

 

 

Just read the Wiki version of this...sad. Were you born there? Do you have a Native American birth name?

[Drowsy Emperor]

pine ridge...

 

 

Just read the Wiki version of this...sad. Were you born there? Do you have a Native American birth name?

 

So did I, the demographics chapter is what the west would call a "humanitarian disaster". But you know, apparently that can only happen to Sudan and the like.

[Gromnir]

pine ridge...

 

 

Just read the Wiki version of this...sad. Were you born there? Do you have a Native American birth name?

 

were born in evanston, il, but spent first 12 years of life in the dakotas (mostly pine ridge). name issue is... complicated.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

^Fear the kangaroo rat?

That's the Desert Rats shoulder patch from, you know, way back when Brits actually fought fascism. I think the reference is in kinda poor taste...

Apart from the more general Desert Rats there were some that might be accurately called Kangaroo Rats

 

The Rats of Tobruk.

 

And clearly Gaddafi missed a trick by not hunting his desert rats with a desert fox...

[Malcador]

Zombie Rommel demands vengeance

[Gromnir]

Zombie Rommel demands vengeance

 

is strange, but whenever we picture or visualize rommel, we almost invariably thinks o' james mason in spite o' the fact that mason didn't genuine look like rommel. we has seen loads o' pictures o' rommel, but he were kinda nondescript, so images not really stick better than mason. is one o' the few historical figures who were born after the advent o' common photography techniques who we cannot help but identify with the actor. now that we consider, karl malden is who we think of when trying to picture omar bradley. huh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[obyknven]

Libya / Incredible media lies - BBC shows "Green Square" in INDIA, 24 August 2011

 

 

Libya / Tripoli: Nato invasion - the correct images

 

[Walsingham]

That's not a conspiracy, you buffoon. What kind of conspiracy has people waving INDIAN FLAGS? It's a mistake.

[Morgoth]

So, is there already a target date for the elections?

 

There will be elections, right? 'Cause I don't think all Lybians are happy with having Al-Kaida and other groups taking over government.

[obyknven]

Meanwhile the capitalist states are scrambling to unlock the over $US128 billion in order to loot the national treasury and foreign assets of the Libyan government. Although no elections have been held, the imperialists and their allies have deemed the rebels as the government of an already internationally recognized state.

[Gorgon]

What do you mean. Unlocking doesn't mean stealing. The Libyans are going to need their doe if they are to rebuild. Ghadaffi left the country missing almost everything.

[Walsingham]

^Fear the kangaroo rat?

That's the Desert Rats shoulder patch from, you know, way back when Brits actually fought fascism. I think the reference is in kinda poor taste...

 

And I think it's in even poorer taste to accuse us of not risking lives to fight dictators. Or does it hurt that your own country panicked and ran in the face of terrorist intimidation?

 

Why not whitewash the whole of WW2 as a defence of Empire, come to that? We weren't fighting fascism at all. We were only in it for the rubber plantations.

[Hurlshort]

I just read a great story about how the rebels are now going through all the expensive stuff from the Ghadaffi family had. Apparently some folks drove off with a BMW, Audi, and a Lamborghini one of the sons owned. I imagine that will stick out a bit rolling through Libyan neighborhoods.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Why not whitewash the whole of WW2 as a defence of Empire, come to that? We weren't fighting fascism at all. We were only in it for the rubber plantations.

It was all for Mideast oil, everyone knows that

[213374U]

HA! Good Fun!

Those aren't really worst-case scenarios, we've seen them elsewhere so it's not much of a stretch to imagine that Libya could see a repetition of any number of those. As for Q's connections to terrorism and the notion that removing him will lead to less terrorism as opposed to more... that was then and this is now. Funny, too, because depending on who you listen to, the rebels are in fact connected to Al-Qaeda.

 

We'll see if this revolution eventually amounts to anything in terms of real change for the people -much less what was advertised as- which shouldn't be too difficult as Q really sucked as far as statebuilding goes, but if things go wrong down the road, who is going to take the blame? Heh.

 

 

And I think it's in even poorer taste to accuse us of not risking lives to fight dictators. Or does it hurt that your own country panicked and ran in the face of terrorist intimidation?

 

Why not whitewash the whole of WW2 as a defence of Empire, come to that? We weren't fighting fascism at all. We were only in it for the rubber plantations.

Oh, my. I must have hit pretty close to home to get such a rise out of you. Yeah, I'm deeply ashamed that my compatriots reacted both cowardly and stupidly in the wake of the 2004 attacks, but we're paying the price for that and will continue to do so for a few more years at best. That's neither here nor there, though.

 

The reference is in poor taste by comparison. WWII, and the North African campaign in particular only share with the present conflict the geographic location. They aren't comparable in motives and they are most certainly not comparable in intensity. If you want to draw parallels between standing up to the aggressions of Hitler and Tojo and going to some backwater dictator's turf to burn it down with guided munitions without even bothering to put in the legwork ourselves, be my guest. But this whole "fight for freedom" has a really rancid stench about it so I'm not buying into it, not this time.

Edited August 25, 2011 by 213374U

[Walsingham]

LOL I guess I looked like I over-reacted. And hence to me it looked like you did. My point wasn't that the rebels are the 7th armoured division. My point is that accusing an enemy army of being rats in North africa hasn't terribly successful precedents. Nothing more.

[Gromnir]

HA! Good Fun!

Those aren't really worst-case scenarios, we've seen them elsewhere so it's not much of a stretch to imagine that Libya could see a repetition of any number of those. As for Q's connections to terrorism and the notion that removing him will lead to less terrorism as opposed to more... that was then and this is now. Funny, too, because depending on who you listen to, the rebels are in fact connected to Al-Qaeda.

 

We'll see if this revolution eventually amounts to anything in terms of real change for the people -much less what was advertised as- which shouldn't be too difficult as Q really sucked as far as statebuilding goes, but if things go wrong down the road, who is going to take the blame? Heh.

 

 

 

mention al-qaeda ties o' rebels is pretty weak, no? any large enough group o' gun-toting rebels in the mid east is probable gonna have some al-qaeda ties. the transitional government is gonna be peopled by a broad variety o' characters both admirable and shady. regardless, the rebels is gonna be working on rebuilding libya for some time. organized terrorism that might impact the west coming from libyan sources is not likely to be occurring anytime soon. sure, eventually the new libyans may get organized, and they may decide to pick up where Q left off, but that is gonna be some time in the future. for the time being, the rebels is gonna be relying on westerners to rebuild, so is unlikely they spark up new terrorist activities in the west. heck, one reason why Gromnir were hoping (maybe not entire genuine) that the libyan fighting would continue in perpetuity is that while the rebels and Q were killing each other, they would be far too busy to kill us. however, these regional disputes tend to be difficult to keep complete contained, and the US, in spite o' refusal to commit ground troops, were making a huge investment in the campaign. letting libyan tribals exterminate each other were all well and good, but it were getting inordinate expensive.

 

as for worst case scenarios...

 

*shrug*

 

true, is very plausible that your laundry list o' misfortunes will come to pass. however, those is hypothetical eventualities that may come never to pass, as 'posed to the certainty o' Q opposition to western interests. also, as has been noted numerous times already, the rebels is gonna need western experts and contractors and bankers n' such for the near future. the west is gonna, for better or worse, have influence in libya where they had very little influence previous.

 

 

"Okay, so then, other than the obvious lucrative reconstruction, weapons and raw materials contracts, how exactly is that a success? A success for whom, anyway?"

 

am not thinking that your questions is difficult to answer. the west loses the stability provided by a west hating despot. there is admitted risk that any abrupt and violent regime change will result in a frying pan-to-fire scenario, but am thinking that such a risk seems slim considering what were the original state o' relations 'tween Q's libya and the west.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 26, 2011 by Gromnir

[obyknven]

Nato Hollywood

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/InomineX#p/c/1...D/4/djdQDfaaBug

 

 

Real Tripoli Green Square

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/InomineX#p/a/u/0/fN-MU3uw6R8

Edited August 26, 2011 by obyknven

[Walsingham]

"Usually when a despot falls the first thing that happens is the Western media prints lots of pictures of all their gaudy palaces, with suitably withering captions.

 

"Because it is only through the medium of tasteless interior design choices that middle class Western newspaper readers can begin to grasp that a foreign leader is a bad person."

 

Daily Mash.

[Walsingham]

Always sucks to be a merc:

Dozens of unidentified bodies lie in an abandoned hospital in Tripoli's Abu Salim neighbourhood, which has been the scene of fierce fighting, AP news agency reports. Some are piled in the hospital yard, where they have been covered with blankets. AP suggests they have darker skin than most Libyans and could be professional soldiers recruited by Muammar Gaddafi from sub-Saharan Africa.

[obyknven]

Always sucks to be a merc:

Dozens of unidentified bodies lie in an abandoned hospital in Tripoli's Abu Salim neighbourhood, which has been the scene of fierce fighting, AP news agency reports. Some are piled in the hospital yard, where they have been covered with blankets. AP suggests they have darker skin than most Libyans and could be professional soldiers recruited by Muammar Gaddafi from sub-Saharan Africa.

Edited August 26, 2011 by obyknven

[Gromnir]

well, speaking on behalf o' oppressed minorities everywhere... huh?

 

...

 

oby/lof has heard o' the non sequitur?

 

HA! Good Fun!