The "Humanitarian mission" in Lybia

[Morgoth]

Well, neither should the Lybians then, according to your logic.

[Malcador]

Over three months of bombardements and Gadaffi still has not relinquished, that's some dip**** military doing their job there. Could be indeed the demilitarized UK RAF (Austerity measures, of course) that can't get anything properly done.

 

The "rebels" are useless, and you can't take and hold with an airforce. Wonder how they can get out of this now, though.

[pmp10]

Wonder how they can get out of this now, though.

If you mean the NATO/rebels then I don't see why would they need to be concerned.

Gadaffi can fund the war only for so long and on the western side of things I hear very few complains regarding the intervention.

[Volourn]

"Well, neither should the Lybians then, according to your logic."

 

that's dumb logic. Just ebcause one groupm can't have freedom another group shouldn't hve it either?

 

I guess we Kanadians should give up our freedom too since it's not fair we have it but North koreans don't have it.

 

That's just... stupid.

[lord of flies]

Don't mind me, I'm just trying to draw a humorous parallel between your post and the late poster known as "Lord of Flies" general style of posts.

 

I welcome thoughtful discussion,

not enough to take part in it, though

.

Late? Why am I late? Was I banned or something?

[Purkake]

Apparently not, carry on.

[Gromnir]

I see. Well, with ironclad debate skill like that I guess Ill just have to widthdraw.

 

you don't get it, do you? it Must be the fault o' the US. the US is Evil, so if evil happens in the world, there is a good chance that the US is responsible.

 

HA!

 

morgoth is just being true to form. a US led war that were presented as some kinda quick stroll in the park? heck, he can simply go back to some o' the libya posts on this board to see links to Reputable sources that were predicting that the libya conflict would be long and bloody. some euros may see as ironic that it were the absence o' US command experience and resources that exacerbated the situation in libya, but truth-to-tell, the failure to have political goals match commitment o' resources were identified from the start as problematic. others, such as morgoth, simply find some way to convince self that the US is the Big Bad yet again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am gonna once again reiterate that we will happily watch libya burn while other european nations take a majority o' the heat for the conflagration. the rebels and the loyalists hate the US already, so no matter who wins, the situation for the US will not change appreciably. is not as if the complete instability in libya will result in more terrorist activities directed at the US, 'least nopt for the next few years. let the tribal factions slaughter each other for a change, and when the dust finally settles, they can go back to hating the US... but by then they is gonna hate the french and uk with almost equal venom.

[Zoraptor]

It is an US lead mission (war). Pay some attention and do proper research.

Nope, this is primarily a French mess. Nick the Hungarian backed his good buddy ben Ali in Tunisia and the Libyan mess is the result of him scrambling to get on the Right Side of History after ben Ali got his marching orders, and in what was supposed to be a quick and easy win with the road strewn with flowers. The US was always pretty reluctant and has had very little direct military involvement outside the first couple of weeks.

 

On the positive side it has really exposed the bias and impotence of the UN and World Court (censure for the French breaking the arms embargo? ohoho, tres amusant, rules are for the little people) and with any luck made any more imperial adventures less likely. Sadly only NATO's credibility will be a casualty- it's one thing to fail against a relatively crafty and prepared foe in good defensive terrain like the serbs but quite another level of embarassment when 90%+ of the action takes place on a nice, flat desert with a few million people stretched over millions of square kilometers, but there's no prospect of NATO actually losing outright which would be the only thing that would cause it to break up short of someone deciding to nuke Tripoli.

 

Also, what is it with half the population of the internet calling it Lybia?

 

RT vs BBC

The BBC news sections have been absolutely woeful over Libya, parroting the party line as much as ITAR-TASS in soviet times. They must be really worried about more funding cuts.

 

In contrast their opinion shows have actually on occasion pointed out things like the Rebels Council consisting almost entirely of people who were so shocked and appalled at Gaddafi's government that they were high ranking members of it for years- no doubt working to bring it down from within [/spindoctor].

[Gorgon]

Well, neither should the Lybians then, according to your logic.

Don't you understand that Invading Libya does not at all compare with the ramifications, political and practical, of invading Syria. Logic does not demand that they be treated equal, my logic or anyone else's.

[Walsingham]

The US has been extremely careful to avoid leading intervention in Libya. Partly because it would go against the remit Obama had to avoid new wars*. Partly because I think that after Afghanistan and Iraq they know that their European allies merely want free cake.

 

The problem with NATO isn't that its need has passed. Russia is resurgent and aggressive in Eastern Europe. Something which I shouldn't have to tell an Austrian. The problem is that NATO has no clear strategic cohesion to make it an effective vehicle for action. And that in turn is because the various member states have wildly diverging energy security issues, and energy security seems to be the big issue for the next twenty years.

 

 

 

*coughcough Nobel committee halfwits coughcough*

[Gorth]

Over three months of bombardements and Gadaffi still has not relinquished, that's some dip**** military doing their job there. Could be indeed the demilitarized UK RAF (Austerity measures, of course) that can't get anything properly done.

Maybe the paperwork involved in peaceful air strikes is overwhelming compared to when being technically at war?

 

Ah, you want to bomb this tank (registration no. 65431) driving along the Tripoli highway A3 in a northerly direction? Please fill out form BZQ-0211 and BZQ-0211b (plus a munitions export form, if delivering payloads outside the EU). Remember to fill out the backside too and return in the provided envelope...

 

Remember to leave a re-order requisition at the depot if you take the last payload in stock, your colleagues will appreciate your consideration.

 

Also, consider freight insurance if payload gets lost in transit before arriving at destination

[Humodour]

Morgoth, the Libyan mission makes sense, mate. You're acting a bit odd about it all.

[Morgoth]

Morgoth, the Libyan mission makes sense, mate. You're acting a bit odd about it all.

No, a war usually never makes sense. It will just mean long-term that Libya will detoriate from the African country with the highest living standards into another puppet state with lots of angry people.

[Walsingham]

Peace at any price, eh Morgo? Where have I heard that before?

 

Nonetheless, you can't have it both ways. You can't deride the RAF for not getting enough bombing done, then object to the entire point of the bombing. Thinking joined up you are not.

[Morgoth]

If you commit to do a job, to it properly then.

 

But what am I worried about? Soon the US will face a super-GAU if it doesn't increase the debt ceiling again, rendering it herself useless.

 

The Frenchies and Brits will then retract and tell the mainstream media some bull**** so that the mission (war) doesn't look like a complete failure. Gaddaffi will crawl back on his throne and makes nice hugging photos with Tony Blair, Berlusconi and other joke figures. People will wonder if the last Harry Potter movie will be the best one.

[Gromnir]

Morgoth, the Libyan mission makes sense, mate. You're acting a bit odd about it all.

No, a war usually never makes sense.

 

what a bunch o' piffle. wars Always make sense. to get large numbers of folks fight each other in deadly combat requires a reason. only the barest fraction o' empathy is required to make sense o' any war. now maybe morgoth's middle-class, socialist pretensions is giving him the kinda clarity whereby he can makes a judgement that wars is typical unnecessary, but that is a complete different issue. fight over religion or land or resources or 'cause o' fear is reasons that may seem unnecessary to somebody like morgoth, but even he should be able to recognize that there is always a reason for many persons to collectively and willingly engage in life and death struggles.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we see that morgoth still gots some weird notions 'bout the stability o' the US. *sigh* am gonna keep simple and suggest that morgoth looks to china investment in 10-year US treasury bonds. china is not investing heavily in eu or japan, and for good reason(s). on the other hand, china invests huge in US bonds. is no wacky conspiracy... is no chinese plot. china is literal banking on a decade o' US stability.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Gromnir

[Walsingham]

I presume you're gtting a giddy adolescent thrill out of all this pointless cynical grandstanding?

 

I only ask because it'd be a shame to let it go to waste...

 

Do you have anything sensible to say on this? How it could be avoided in future? How we could improve out exit plan? How Ghaddafi could be removed without the RAF? Are ties obligatory when meeting oil-rich nutcases? Should I have chips for tea?

 

Anything?

[Morgoth]

We can keep on "protecting our interests, western values and world views" by waging wars, or we can try just move on as a civilization.

 

I know, hard concept to grasp, especially for the relatively young America that enjoys playing a bit ol' British Empire on it's own, but even they will have to wise up someday.

 

Oh Grom, China is lending all this money so that Amercians keep buying their products. China also started buying up state bonds from some eastern European countries.

 

Either way, the US is in a lots of debt, and debtor nations don't have a lot to say, it's the creditor nations that will eventually make policy.

[Malcador]

That only works if everyone does it though, sad but that's people. Now Libya's a stupid piece of work by NATO, yay we must back some half-assed inept rebels and terrorists that bit off more than they can chew and got their asses kicked.

[Gromnir]

We can keep on "protecting our interests, western values and world views" by waging wars, or we can try just move on as a civilization.

 

 

 

Oh Grom, China is lending all this money so that Amercians keep buying their products. China also started buying up state bonds from some eastern European countries.

 

you is complete ignoring the relative amounts being invested if you compare say hungary with US. china admits to purchasing good will in europe... relative cheap. is not anywhere near proportional to the mind-boggling billion US investment. even so, if we accept morgoth's ridiculous proposition regarding imminent US collapse as a given, then the chinese is throwing away billions of future dollars to be getting... what? am thinking you overestimate the impact of 10-year bond monies on US business and consumer purchases o' chinese product. some suggest that the chinese act criminal, but nobody suggests that they is as criminally stoopid as moroth would have us believe.

 

"Either way, the US is in a lots of debt, and debtor nations don't have a lot to say, it's the creditor nations that will eventually make policy."

 

rrrrrriiiiiightt. is now safe to ignore morgoth on all things monetary as well as political. yeah, there is enormous negative implications for nations such as US and Japan concerning debt. such debt should be viewed as critical, but you is being willful ignorant if you wanna marginalize the impact o' such nations.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Morgoth]

You can keep downplaying your countries problems Grom, but it won't go away. At least the EU countries try to solve their debts by doing some painful measures, it may turn out futile, but at least there's a political will to get out of the mess, unlike in the US, where the new presidential candidates are arguing about Pizza at some dumb TV show.

[Purkake]

Tell us how you really feel, Morgoth.

[Gromnir]

You can keep downplaying your countries problems Grom, but it won't go away. At least the EU countries try to solve their debts by doing some painful measures, it may turn out futile, but at least there's a political will to get out of the mess, unlike in the US, where the new presidential candidates are arguing about Pizza at some dumb TV show.

 

am far from downplaying. we suggested that there is enormous negative implications to the debt cycle spending, and in the past we has noted that the situation is dire... critical even. in the long run it would be better if there were a small US financial collapse now, 'cause in 15 or 20 years the cataclysm will be many times worse... and not just worse for the US, but for the world. so no, we ain't downplaying. we thinks the problem is fast approaching a point-of-no-return and the long-term implications is staggering. 'course that don't change that morgoth is talking out his arse. 'cept in morgoth wet dreams there is no imminent collapse, and you is sadly stuck with US military and financial superpower status for a considerable number o' years.

 

what this thread does reveal is that some folks has created such a boogie man out o' the US that you suffer from the same kinda endemic and self-conflicted stoopidity that the soviet embraced during +50 years following ww2: you see US EVIL everywhere, while at the same time you long/dream/anticipate an immediate US collapse. the US is taking a backseat in libya, but still morgoth sees the Evil Empire pulling the strings.

 

*snort*

 

and btw, let us try not to forget that Gromnir loathes many aspects o' the US, and actual has valid reasons for our hate. unlike some snot-nosed euro who reads 'bout American evils while enduring your delusional envy, Gromnir grew up at Pine Ridge. we learned to hunt before we could ride a bike 'cause we rare had enough to eat as a child. there were one month during the winter of 77 when the only thing our family had to eat were jiffy pop (recovered from a crate that had literal fallen off a truck) and ketchup... had ketchup soup more days than we can recall during that winter. lack o' needed heat during winters. intermittent running water during summers. insufficient medical care 'til we were in our teens. Pine Ridge, while not as bad today as it were in the 70's, has child mortality rates that is worse than many 3rd world countries, and you is unlikely to find worse numbers for alcoholism and suicide outside o' active war zones. so, you think we go out of our way to defend the US?

 

bah.

 

nevertheless, in spite o' our... problems with the US, we does not ignore its relative global power. also, having taught and traveled in europe, we has the advantage o' perspective. we has seen what is the alternatives.

 

preachy little...

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 13, 2011 by Gromnir

[Gorgon]

one could wish for more pulling in the same direction with regards to dealing with the deficit and the recession, it seems like there is more ideology and electioneering preventing solutions in the US, whereas European politicians have to worry about being seen as part of the problem. Two party trench warfare should be banned in times of national crisis, instead it's readily accepted.

[Humodour]

Morgoth, the Libyan mission makes sense, mate. You're acting a bit odd about it all.

No, a war usually never makes sense. It will just mean long-term that Libya will detoriate from the African country with the highest living standards into another puppet state with lots of angry people.

 

Libya was a country with some of the worst political and civic oppression in the world in the form of the state security apparatus (up there with Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria), and they were 'governed' by somebody who has performed and still actively encourages acts of terror. It most recently appears that he has ordered soldiers to use rape as a tool of suppressing the Libyan population.

 

Wars can and often do make sense. If only from the perspective of the people fighting for freedom from oppression.

 

America is not the leader of the Libyan mission. The Libyan mission is NOT an American idea. America was NOT the one demanding Libyan intervention. The Libyan mission involves Arab countries as well as European and English countries. The Libyan mission itself is only a support to the Libyan people themselves.

 

If you attempt to compare this situation in any way to Iraq or Afghanistan you immediately lose a large amount of legitimacy.