Significant Player Characters

[Calax]

No, but maybe at some point he's able to call in help on a midpoint mission from the alliance military to knock out a blockade or something, by sheer virtue of his reputation.

 

Or, better, in ME2 he's accepted back into the Spectres and returned to "alive" status to the universe and has several interactions with higher ups in both the human and council power structures who try to use him for political gain.

 

Or, you know, not have almost all [your] accomplishments be made moot in terms of how the game world was formed except for the extremely superficial (killing Saren). I know that a lot of people defended the council not giving credence to the Reaper issue because there was ultimately no evidence for it, but the reason people griped about it was because it took the main point and arc of the first game and made it so that it wasn't really known. It undercut the sense of accomplishment that you got for learning about this huge threat in darkspace and defeating their scout. Also undercutting that sense was the fact that the council basically said that even though we'd saved the galaxy, we weren't worth listening to or giving any form of benefit of the doubt to.

 

I know that gaming in general is about overcoming the obstacles to save the world etc, but there comes a point where you'd think the gameworld would start actually trying to take your side. Instead of having to find un-impeachable truth about either somebodies corruption or in defense of your own name or whatever, have a scene where the big power you're being tried by actually takes your side (assuming this is late game). Instead of random Jim-bob the scoundrel who has rumors about his murdering tons of dudes calling you a murderer and everyone going "He must be telling the truth!" simply because he says it and is able to produce very shaky circumstantial evidence, have the judge turn around and take your side and simply throw out the case unless something more substantial pops up.

[Orogun01]

No, but maybe at some point he's able to call in help on a midpoint mission from the alliance military to knock out a blockade or something, by sheer virtue of his reputation.

 

Or, better, in ME2 he's accepted back into the Spectres and returned to "alive" status to the universe and has several interactions with higher ups in both the human and council power structures who try to use him for political gain.

 

Or, you know, not have almost all [your] accomplishments be made moot in terms of how the game world was formed except for the extremely superficial (killing Saren). I know that a lot of people defended the council not giving credence to the Reaper issue because there was ultimately no evidence for it, but the reason people griped about it was because it took the main point and arc of the first game and made it so that it wasn't really known. It undercut the sense of accomplishment that you got for learning about this huge threat in darkspace and defeating their scout. Also undercutting that sense was the fact that the council basically said that even though we'd saved the galaxy, we weren't worth listening to or giving any form of benefit of the doubt to.

 

I know that gaming in general is about overcoming the obstacles to save the world etc, but there comes a point where you'd think the gameworld would start actually trying to take your side. Instead of having to find un-impeachable truth about either somebodies corruption or in defense of your own name or whatever, have a scene where the big power you're being tried by actually takes your side (assuming this is late game). Instead of random Jim-bob the scoundrel who has rumors about his murdering tons of dudes calling you a murderer and everyone going "He must be telling the truth!" simply because he says it and is able to produce very shaky circumstantial evidence, have the judge turn around and take your side and simply throw out the case unless something more substantial pops up.

Which part of the hero must begin his/her quest from an afflicted position did you not understand? You think they call it the monomyth for nothing, this is how every epic tale of heroism goes.

Also you are arguing the plot of ME2, coming up next plot holes in Teletubbies season 2.

Plus development constraints, it's easier to implement a hero's rise than to have a badass become a living god. Also the game world takes your side, right next to you in your virtual bed in the form of various romances which begin as soon as you say hi to the companion.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Orogun01

[Calax]

So you're going to keep asking for the exact same formula used in every single "epic tale" to be used again and again?

 

I'm not sitting here asking for you to start at level 40 and move to level 80 while your enemies start at level 2 and run up to 100 or whatever. But it's getting tiring of every game having the same origins for their protagonist, and sending them through VERY similar trials before turning them loose on a game world that doesn't care what they are.

 

My point about Mass Effect was that the devs designed a game in which your character is supposed to be a superstar who's back from the dead (why didn't some loony run up and worship him again?), and yet everyone still treats you as if you're just random monkey number seven. The only real effect your "stardom" has is that you endorse places for minor discounts, otherwise your feats and sense of accomplishment are undercut in the name of making the game have similar trials and tribulations as the previous one.

 

Which brings us back to my original point: Most game player characters are (in the name of dramatic tension and challenge) automatically started at rags with nothing behind them and no real forms of hope for that insurmoutable task before them, and the world they're in doesn't know or care that they're the chosen one or whatever because of whatever catastrophe or minor inconvenience caused you to become the destitute adventurer you are at the start of the game.

 

And yet, Suikoden manages to pull off the "epic journey" while still making your NPC seem to matter by inserting the hours long prologue where you're shown to be the political tool of your family, and of little more importance than a ceremonial ornament. Then the Coup occurs and you're running for your life with little more than yourself, your personal bodyguard (who's the same age and slightly more combat adept than you) and your Aunt as your party. That's where the version of the hero's story you're so in love with begins. But this also allows for the writer to put weight behind the PC's position within the world, people recognize him and either shelter him or rat him out based on how they feel towards the new regime. And people do this simply because of who you are, not because you killed the slime in their basement.

[Orogun01]

So you're going to keep asking for the exact same formula used in every single "epic tale" to be used again and again?

 

I'm not sitting here asking for you to start at level 40 and move to level 80 while your enemies start at level 2 and run up to 100 or whatever. But it's getting tiring of every game having the same origins for their protagonist, and sending them through VERY similar trials before turning them loose on a game world that doesn't care what they are.

 

My point about Mass Effect was that the devs designed a game in which your character is supposed to be a superstar who's back from the dead (why didn't some loony run up and worship him again?), and yet everyone still treats you as if you're just random monkey number seven. The only real effect your "stardom" has is that you endorse places for minor discounts, otherwise your feats and sense of accomplishment are undercut in the name of making the game have similar trials and tribulations as the previous one.

 

Which brings us back to my original point: Most game player characters are (in the name of dramatic tension and challenge) automatically started at rags with nothing behind them and no real forms of hope for that insurmoutable task before them, and the world they're in doesn't know or care that they're the chosen one or whatever because of whatever catastrophe or minor inconvenience caused you to become the destitute adventurer you are at the start of the game.

 

And yet, Suikoden manages to pull off the "epic journey" while still making your NPC seem to matter by inserting the hours long prologue where you're shown to be the political tool of your family, and of little more importance than a ceremonial ornament. Then the Coup occurs and you're running for your life with little more than yourself, your personal bodyguard (who's the same age and slightly more combat adept than you) and your Aunt as your party. That's where the version of the hero's story you're so in love with begins. But this also allows for the writer to put weight behind the PC's position within the world, people recognize him and either shelter him or rat him out based on how they feel towards the new regime. And people do this simply because of who you are, not because you killed the slime in their basement.

First of all, abbreviate.

 

Second, my point about your point about Mass Effect is that everyone does worship you. The whole game is filled with cameos from the most unlikely and unnecessary (I really didn't need to see Helena Blake again) characters who's only purpose is to kiss the ground in which you walk on. Not to mention your companions; specially the romances, that treat you as a god sent no matter what you do.(sans Samara, but she was cool)

 

Which brings us to this please read Joseph Campell's "The Hero of a Thousand faces" all epic tales are some variation of the monomyth....mono(one)

RPGs specially since they are derived from the Fantasy genre that draws a lot from epic poems which is the clearest example that you can get of the monomyth. They are closer to it than say Grand Theft Auto.

 

Dude again with Suidoken, what's the deal with a girly looking dude fighting evil with a three section staff.

First of all as soon as you begin the story you start the hero's journey. You can skip or omitt steps but the structure remains, also he begins as being a second class citizen, a man in a matriarchal society. He is basically a princess (and looks like one too [second zing]) meant to be married for political purposes, anyone would agree this qualifies as an afflicted position.

As soon as you do some research on the subject of the Hero's Journey you will find that what you are actually refering to it's called "Crossing the Threshold" which begins the second stage of the journey visually exemplified with a change in venue (he goes from the comforts of his palace into the world)

[Orchomene]

In Planescape Torment, you begin as an immortal which is not your classic character.

In Ascension to the throne, you are an overthrown king that will fight to regain his throne.

In KB Armored Princess, you are a princess.

 

There are some examples, yet it remains pretty rare.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Orchomene

[Rosbjerg]

Well Calax, you have a point - I would also like a sequel where you had the resources of a nation/universe/'what have you' that you accumulated in the previous title and then set out to defeat the ultimate obstacle.. I find it pretty annoying when they reset the character instead of just turning op the action.

 

But I think the problem lies in the overall structure of modern games. The first game is so effin epic that if you didn't reset the character the next fight would basically be so over the top that it would be ridiculous.. Maybe if Mass Effect had a level cap of 20, ME2 40 and ME3 60 then you would feel your progression, much like you did in the BG series.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Well Calax, you have a point - I would also like a sequel where you had the resources of a nation/universe/'what have you' that you accumulated in the previous title and then set out to defeat the ultimate obstacle.. I find it pretty annoying when they reset the character instead of just turning op the action.

 

But I think the problem lies in the overall structure of modern games. The first game is so effin epic that if you didn't reset the character the next fight would basically be so over the top that it would be ridiculous.. Maybe if Mass Effect had a level cap of 20, ME2 40 and ME3 60 then you would feel your progression, much like you did in the BG series.

I know Bio had planned ME as a trilogy from the start but I wonder if they had always planned for Shepard to die and be brought back in ME 2. Maybe it was just a convenient reset for the high level you end at in ME 1 and to make all the gameplay changes in ME2 seem less drastic in the game.

[Calax]

So you're going to keep asking for the exact same formula used in every single "epic tale" to be used again and again?

 

I'm not sitting here asking for you to start at level 40 and move to level 80 while your enemies start at level 2 and run up to 100 or whatever. But it's getting tiring of every game having the same origins for their protagonist, and sending them through VERY similar trials before turning them loose on a game world that doesn't care what they are.

 

My point about Mass Effect was that the devs designed a game in which your character is supposed to be a superstar who's back from the dead (why didn't some loony run up and worship him again?), and yet everyone still treats you as if you're just random monkey number seven. The only real effect your "stardom" has is that you endorse places for minor discounts, otherwise your feats and sense of accomplishment are undercut in the name of making the game have similar trials and tribulations as the previous one.

 

Which brings us back to my original point: Most game player characters are (in the name of dramatic tension and challenge) automatically started at rags with nothing behind them and no real forms of hope for that insurmoutable task before them, and the world they're in doesn't know or care that they're the chosen one or whatever because of whatever catastrophe or minor inconvenience caused you to become the destitute adventurer you are at the start of the game.

 

And yet, Suikoden manages to pull off the "epic journey" while still making your NPC seem to matter by inserting the hours long prologue where you're shown to be the political tool of your family, and of little more importance than a ceremonial ornament. Then the Coup occurs and you're running for your life with little more than yourself, your personal bodyguard (who's the same age and slightly more combat adept than you) and your Aunt as your party. That's where the version of the hero's story you're so in love with begins. But this also allows for the writer to put weight behind the PC's position within the world, people recognize him and either shelter him or rat him out based on how they feel towards the new regime. And people do this simply because of who you are, not because you killed the slime in their basement.

First of all, abbreviate.

 

Second, my point about your point about Mass Effect is that everyone does worship you. The whole game is filled with cameos from the most unlikely and unnecessary (I really didn't need to see Helena Blake again) characters who's only purpose is to kiss the ground in which you walk on. Not to mention your companions; specially the romances, that treat you as a god sent no matter what you do.(sans Samara, but she was cool)

Yes, but my point was that having these as JUST cameos made the impact you had previously much lighter. I understand that if they were to do much more would have been insanity from a design standpoint but...

Which brings us to this please read Joseph Campell's "The Hero of a Thousand faces" all epic tales are some variation of the monomyth....mono(one)

RPGs specially since they are derived from the Fantasy genre that draws a lot from epic poems which is the clearest example that you can get of the monomyth. They are closer to it than say Grand Theft Auto.

So? The best of writers can take an old story and write it so it feels new. To be technical there are only what, 6(?) stories in existance? And yet we have a thousand different takes, some good, some bad, on each of them. Except apparently this one.

Dude again with Suidoken, what's the deal with a girly looking dude fighting evil with a three section staff.

First of all as soon as you begin the story you start the hero's journey. You can skip or omitt steps but the structure remains, also he begins as being a second class citizen, a man in a matriarchal society. He is basically a princess (and looks like one too [second zing]) meant to be married for political purposes, anyone would agree this qualifies as an afflicted position.

As soon as you do some research on the subject of the Hero's Journey you will find that what you are actually refering to it's called "Crossing the Threshold" which begins the second stage of the journey visually exemplified with a change in venue (he goes from the comforts of his palace into the world)

I keep coming back to it becuase it exemplifies what I'm trying to get more of. It has the character feeling like they're mattering within the world, and it doesn't start them at zero money, without a single thing to their name. Just by doing that and showing the relationships between the various characters within his family and their retainers, the game deserves props.

[Orogun01]

Yes, but my point was that having these as JUST cameos made the impact you had previously much lighter. I understand that if they were to do much more would have been insanity from a design standpoint but...

Should had said something about it before then a cameo was an effective way to give a tip of the hat to the first ME, make you feel as you have grown from the first game, and stroke your ego without going so far out of their way that the main story isn't affected. That said; Lair of the Shadow Broker was great because it lacked much of this.

So? The best of writers can take an old story and write it so it feels new. To be technical there are only what, 6(?) stories in existance? And yet we have a thousand different takes, some good, some bad, on each of them. Except apparently this one.

Well that's something that we can all agree on

I keep coming back to it becuase it exemplifies what I'm trying to get more of. It has the character feeling like they're mattering within the world, and it doesn't start them at zero money, without a single thing to their name. Just by doing that and showing the relationships between the various characters within his family and their retainers, the game deserves props.

I guess that's the problem with writing in video games, they still haven't figured out that's a interactive medium.

[Majek]

What about Kain in Legacy of Kain series? The first game was kind of rpg.

He was an antagonist on that game.

No, he wasn't.

[Orogun01]

What about Kain in Legacy of Kain series? The first game was kind of rpg.

He was an antagonist on that game.

No, he wasn't.

The Kain series are separated between the Blood Omen (with Kain as a protagonist) and the Legacy games (with Raziel as the protagonist and Kain as the main antagonist)

 

Check it, then come back and apologize

[ShadySands]

What about Kain in Legacy of Kain series? The first game was kind of rpg.

He was an antagonist on that game.

No, he wasn't.

The Kain series are separated between the Blood Omen (with Kain as a protagonist) and the Legacy games (with Raziel as the protagonist and Kain as the main antagonist)

 

Check it, then come back and apologize

 

I'm pretty sure they were all called Legacy of Kain.

[Orogun01]

What about Kain in Legacy of Kain series? The first game was kind of rpg.

He was an antagonist on that game.

No, he wasn't.

The Kain series are separated between the Blood Omen (with Kain as a protagonist) and the Legacy games (with Raziel as the protagonist and Kain as the main antagonist)

 

Check it, then come back and apologize

 

I'm pretty sure they were all called Legacy of Kain.

I'm pretty sure that the games starring Kain as the protagonist are called Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain and the ones starting Raziel are called Legacy of Kain:Soul Reaver.

 

Clarification is required and why the hell are we arguing this? I swear that one day we are going end up arguing over the color of the sky.

 

P.S: its blue.

[Malcador]

It's grey.

[Calax]

Yes, but my point was that having these as JUST cameos made the impact you had previously much lighter. I understand that if they were to do much more would have been insanity from a design standpoint but...

Should had said something about it before then a cameo was an effective way to give a tip of the hat to the first ME, make you feel as you have grown from the first game, and stroke your ego without going so far out of their way that the main story isn't affected. That said; Lair of the Shadow Broker was great because it lacked much of this.

Shadow Broker rocked I give you that.

 

But the thing about the cameos is that what they were was tipping their hat... to something that'd had TREMENDOUS effect on the galaxy. The replacement of the Council, and the Rachni bits were probably the most annoying parts of that. Added on top is the dollop of "Nobody believes you because you don't have anything but circumstantial proof, therefor it doesn't count!" and it feels like they might as well have just named this "Mass Effect: Redo!"

[Volourn]

"In the BG series youre a demigod. "

 

Which still makes you less special than the talking demigod squirrel you meet. R00fles!

 

 

"In Planescape Torment, you begin as an immortal which is not your classic character."

 

Yet, you begin as a level one amnesiac nobody that ahrd anyone otuside of a handful of characters give a crap about.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Volourn

[Calax]

Another good example of a player character being significant would be the first Assassins Creed game. Everyone within the brotherhood knows who you are, and either respects or hates you for that fact and Altiars attitude.

 

Also, as a caveat, AC2 was one of the few games that had the player as a public figure of consequence, but it was out of place. I've mentioned this a few times, but Assassins are supposed to be blades in the crowd, a random knife that finds itself embedded within the back of their target. NOT somebody who is very public about his actions, well known, and openly spouts (with a neon sign eight miles high, and a megaphone) that "I AM AN ASSASSIN! SO WAS MY FAMILY!"

[greylord]

If you really want significant...stop looking at RPGs and start looking at RTS games. Half of them you are the Leader of a nation, empire, or something else and are the leader of the forces. They all follow your directions typically...even more obedient than slaves! Almost like they worship you so much that they are more like robots!

 

{sarcasm detectors should be going off as you read my statement above}

[Orogun01]

Shadow Broker rocked I give you that.

 

But the thing about the cameos is that what they were was tipping their hat... to something that'd had TREMENDOUS effect on the galaxy. The replacement of the Council, and the Rachni bits were probably the most annoying parts of that. Added on top is the dollop of "Nobody believes you because you don't have anything but circumstantial proof, therefor it doesn't count!" and it feels like they might as well have just named this "Mass Effect: Redo!"

It's as you say it's not to your actions but to Shepard him/herself; the cameos for the most part were something out of a James Bond movie. With horrible lines such as "You are standing in the presence of a living god..." Or something to that effect (Ashley) What the reasons were for underplaying the events of the first game I cannot fathom. I can give two guesses, deliberate neglect or unintentional lack of talent which when look at it's really the same thing.

 

Another good example of a player character being significant would be the first Assassins Creed game. Everyone within the brotherhood knows who you are, and either respects or hates you for that fact and Altiars attitude.

 

Also, as a caveat, AC2 was one of the few games that had the player as a public figure of consequence, but it was out of place. I've mentioned this a few times, but Assassins are supposed to be blades in the crowd, a random knife that finds itself embedded within the back of their target. NOT somebody who is very public about his actions, well known, and openly spouts (with a neon sign eight miles high, and a megaphone) that "I AM AN ASSASSIN! SO WAS MY FAMILY!"

Quick point of disagreement: the original Hassassins were the suicide bombers of their day. Their job was to create panic, hence the very public and bloody attacks.

[Calax]

Except the Assassins in the game aren't the ones from history

 

 

I never did run across a line of "You are a god".

[Orogun01]

kicks in 0.31 at

Edited April 14, 2011 by Orogun01

[Calax]

Been digging through a NWN2 "Let's Play"

http://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2/Update%2046/

That page has a mention of what I'm talking about during the negotiations with hostage takers

So few RPGs have your reputation develop and impact others appropriately. Most of the time people will treat you as some Level 1 scrub, even though you've slain demons and conquered armies. So it's nice when a pair of thugs wet themselves when they hear your name.

 

And the page before has interspersed between the play by play a discussion on the monomyth etc.

[Orogun01]

The problem with more "responsive" NPCs would be the amount of code that would have to go for a single response. Variables, the if[/] statements, and in the end you just get one NPC that knows that you choose A or B on a previous quest. That's why; IMO, it's something best kept for a few NPCs who just give a passing remark about it.

 

That said, I just recalled another example (sort of) In AP when you first meet Marburg, his first impression is dictated by your approach to the missions. Granted it's only the missions in Italy and you just need to take the "aggressive" solution in one. But it determines a + or - with that character.

 

It's a bit of a trade off between a large amount of NPCs to interact with or a few more responsive ones. Which goes back to the whole size vs content issue in Video games.

[Calax]

Well, if you only voice those who are major characters and leave a lot of the incidental dialogue as text, you may be able to set up simple triggers based on the advancement of the plot where you go from no-name to saint.

 

Or even if it's voiced just one or two lines extra for each shopkeeper and generic would work WONDERS (assuming you set it up so that NPC's recognized you)

[Rosbjerg]

Actually I've been playing through FO:NV now and I've noticed how NPCs are beginning to react to my fame. There are some hiccups here and there, but I actually think Obz implemented this fame system pretty well.