Deus Ex 3

[J.E. Sawyer]

First person when not in cover, automatic switch to third person when you enter cover, and you can line up your crosshairs prior to popping out so you don't wind up herky-jerking the stick to adjust for the first second or two.

 

Also, being out of cover was pretty unforgiving, which felt good/appropriate.

[Oner]

Dunno about R6, but the cover system in DX:HR is smooth, feels mostly natural (both the controls and the cover placement), and the sneaking with cover bit makes sense.

[Gorgon]

What I mean to say is that the lousy aiming on controllers influenced gameplay developments towards hiding behind crates, and that that gave us a generation of games that all look alike and play alike, that's worst case scenario, there are plenty of exceptions to the rule though.

[Wombat]

Steam has been insisting that I'd like Rainbow Six...

[Tale]

What I mean to say is that the lousy aiming on controllers influenced gameplay developments towards hiding behind crates, and that that gave us a generation of games that all look alike and play alike, that's worst case scenario, there are plenty of exceptions to the rule though.

Console shooters were doing just fine without hiding behind crates. Halo being one of the more popular examples. Exceptions to the rule kind of hint that the rule does not actually exist. Or that's there's something significantly wrong with its conception as a rule.

 

Games playing similar is rarely the fault of a single popular mechanic. That's usually more deliberate follow the leader. Games playing like Gears of War because they want people to like them the same as Gears of War, not because they both use cover.

[Gorgon]

Halo is completely unplayable (Halo 1 anyway) and it's a mystery to science why it ever got as popular as it did, give me a recent example.

[Slowtrain]

I always thought cover was much more fun in a game like STALKER, where the whole idea and mechanic of using cover, while pretty dang important feels much more natural.

 

*shrug*

 

Not a big deal though.

[Tale]

Halo is completely unplayable (Halo 1 anyway) and it's a mystery to science why it ever got as popular as it did, give me a recent example.

There's been a couple of recent Halo games. ODST and Reach. I don't believe Singularity or Bioshock have formal cover, either.

 

Aside from that, I don't think recent vs. older is really relevant to the discussion. Recent leans towards cover because its practically part of the standard toolbox, like assault rifles. But my point was that FPS games were successful on consoles before that point.

[Nepenthe]

What I mean to say is that the lousy aiming on controllers influenced gameplay developments towards hiding behind crates, and that that gave us a generation of games that all look alike and play alike, that's worst case scenario, there are plenty of exceptions to the rule though.

Console shooters were doing just fine without hiding behind crates. Halo being one of the more popular examples. Exceptions to the rule kind of hint that the rule does not actually exist. Or that's there's something significantly wrong with its conception as a rule.

 

Games playing similar is rarely the fault of a single popular mechanic. That's usually more deliberate follow the leader. Games playing like Gears of War because they want people to like them the same as Gears of War, not because they both use cover.

 

Related to the "kids these days" from earlier today is: [All games are doing thing X that I don't like] because of consoles.

[Gorgon]

Well if the shoe fits. Kids.

[entrerix]

i loved the cover system in rainbow six: vegas. i played it before gears of war, and then found the system in gears of war to be atrocious by comparison.

 

that said, the cover system in uncharted turns every gunfight into the most boring gunfight ever. i HATE shootouts in that game.

 

so yeah, i dont think cover system= all games play the same, but i do think that some games would benefit from some other design choices. red dead redemption was a good balance imo, most fights you do not need cover, you can rock out with the dead-eye shooting or quick snap lockon shots. but there are some parts of the game where cover becomes vital or at least very helpful.

[Orogun01]

Most recently you have the cover system in F3AR, feels like a gears of wars but completely first person.

 

But yeah the DX:HR cover system it's strongly reminiscent of the Rainbow Six, considering that I actually recognized it before I actually knew that it was inspired by it.

[Tale]

Most recently you have the cover system in F3AR, feels like a gears of wars but completely first person.

Being completely first person kind of kills it feeling like Gears of War. A total lack of blindfire and inability to see over the cover while in cover does that. More like what Crysis 2 has.

 

I find it obnoxious in FEAR and Crysis 2. Crysis 2 at least lets you mark targets so you can tell their position while in cover. FEAR... the game gets much better when you no longer need cover.

[Orogun01]

Most recently you have the cover system in F3AR, feels like a gears of wars but completely first person.

Being completely first person kind of kills it feeling like Gears of War. A total lack of blindfire and inability to see over the cover while in cover does that. More like what Crysis 2 has.

 

I find it obnoxious in FEAR and Crysis 2. Crysis 2 at least lets you mark targets so you can tell their position while in cover. FEAR... the game gets much better when you no longer need cover.

forgot about Crysis 2, still every enemy in F3AR constantly gives away his position by yelling every 0.5 sec. So not a problem to pin point his position, I actually found it to be kind of fun. You wouldn't want your kills to be handed to you on a platter would you?

 

Anyways new trailer

[Morgoth]

Anyways new trailer

A month old is considered "new"?

[Malcador]

Well that's good if you're blind when in cover, makes sense to not have some sort of omniscience about the combat zone.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I always thought cover was much more fun in a game like STALKER, where the whole idea and mechanic of using cover, while pretty dang important feels much more natural.

 

*shrug*

Being in first person and just moving behind cover certainly feels more natural, but the FP perspective always has the shortcoming of giving poor spatial awareness of your own body. That's why I like the R6:V approach. Once I get into cover, I can see exactly where my body is positioned relative to the cover and the incoming fire. For a game like DX:HR, the stealth element also benefits from this system because you get the Splinter Cell-style corner peeking mechanic.

 

It's no real surprise that these game elements are set up like this considering the number of ex-Ubi guys at Eidos Montr

[ShadowScythe]

Once I get into cover, I can see exactly where my body is positioned relative to the cover and the incoming fire. For a game like DX:HR, the stealth element also benefits from this system because you get the Splinter Cell-style corner peeking mechanic.

 

Isn't that...sort of cheating? I mean you abuse the camera to look around a wall that your character shouldn't be able to see in his current position...it feels really cheap and what's wrong with just leaning?

 

Also I haven't played R6 or the DXHR leak, but judging from video previews the constant switching between 3rd person and 1st person looks really disorientating and quite unnecessary...I'm guessing it's not that bad when you actually play it?

[Wombat]

Once I get into cover, I can see exactly where my body is positioned relative to the cover and the incoming fire. For a game like DX:HR, the stealth element also benefits from this system because you get the Splinter Cell-style corner peeking mechanic.

 

Isn't that...sort of cheating? I mean you abuse the camera to look around a wall that your character shouldn't be able to see in his current position...it feels really cheap and what's wrong with just leaning?

That's an argument quite popular with Thief: Deadly Shadows. In fact, I used the TP view only one mission since it was bare necessity since the map was more of a climbing puzzle (I believe Tomb Raider series have focus on such game-play and, indeed, Splinter Cell series have such cases, too). Considering S.T.A.L.K.E.R.'s leaning and stealth of Thief series (I rely much less on my ears in Splinter Cell series compared with Thief series, which contributed to build the unique atmosphere), I don't think TP is necessary except that climbing puzzle game.

 

That said, to be fair, it would be impossible to implement a device to realize precise vision of human being. Human vision is quite wide compared with what can be seen in the monitor of the first person view and you probably jerk your necks to grasp whole information of your surroundings consciously or unconsciously. Of course, you shouldn't be able to see your own backs but I guess TP is a possible alternative to make such game-play possible without complexity. Personally, I like the atmosphere which can only be realized by first person view but it would restrict possible game-plays in a certain areas. Seems, it ultimately depends on the focus of the game style both art-wise and game-play-wise.

[Hell Kitty]

Isn't that...sort of cheating?

No more than having a convenient crosshair to tell me where my bullets go while shooting from the hip; or being able to carry around more weapons, ammo and items then is physically possible; or the game being paused while I heal myself from the status screen; or...

 

and quite unnecessary

Well no, [that feature you don't like] isn't necessary, but then neither is [that feature. you do like]. The whole damn game is unnecessary. The folks at EM could be doing far more productive things with their lives, though personally I'm happy they're not.

[Wombat]

HK, you must have played video games many more than I do and you just have these over-generalizations.

 

In any case, I don't think it is wise to make (ex-)Ubi team a game such as S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or Thief and vice versa. For some mechanisms just work in their own schemes. Since Deus Ex series have always been TP game, I think the team is one of the most desirable choices...at least for the game-play wise.

[ShadowScythe]

^^ Wow I feel like I'm being strawmanned massively here...I think the feature is unnecessary because it just seems like cover based shooting and takedowns can be done in first person without the need for a perspective shift that, again, looks disorientating. It's not that I don't like it and therefore it sucks and EM sucks and Deus Ex is RUINED FOREVER; it's that I don't understand the purpose of it and I'm not sure the benefits of it (better field of view) really outweight the flaws (turning melee into a 'cinematic' button prompt and taking control from the player as well as wonky camera shifts etc). Again, I suppose I should actually go play rainbow 6 or something to determine just how it actually plays but the previews don't give me a good impression on the constant perspective shifting (rest of the game looks good however)

 

Fair enough to your first point though.

Edited June 29, 2011 by ShadowScythe

[Malcador]

Once I get into cover, I can see exactly where my body is positioned relative to the cover and the incoming fire. For a game like DX:HR, the stealth element also benefits from this system because you get the Splinter Cell-style corner peeking mechanic.

 

Isn't that...sort of cheating? I mean you abuse the camera to look around a wall that your character shouldn't be able to see in his current position...it feels really cheap and what's wrong with just leaning?

 

Also I haven't played R6 or the DXHR leak, but judging from video previews the constant switching between 3rd person and 1st person looks really disorientating and quite unnecessary...I'm guessing it's not that bad when you actually play it?

 

Heh in a game like R6, yeah it's cheating. But Vegas was a pretty pathetic Rainbow Six game, pretty fun FPS though. In DX3, it's not that big a deal, although it would be cool to deny people that superb awareness. Beware the fans though, heh.

[Hell Kitty]

HK, you must have played video games many more than I do and you just have these over-generalizations.

In any case, I don't think it is wise to make (ex-)Ubi team a game such as S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or Thief and vice versa. For some mechanisms just work in their own schemes. Since Deus Ex series have always been TP game, I think the team is one of the most desirable choices...at least for the game-play wise.

This post baffles and confuses me.

 

I think the feature is unnecessary because it just seems like cover based shooting and takedowns can be done in first person without the need for a perspective shift

Of course the cover shooting and takedowns in DX:HR could be done in first person, just as all the conversations in DX could have been in first person instead of switching to third. Was is necessary that Eidos Montreal or Ion Storm Austin design their games this way? Of course not, there is no need for a perspective shift in either game, but that's the way the devs did it. Games are chock full of "unnecessary" elements, but people tend only to label the elements they dislike in that way, and I think it's a poor criticism.

 

looks disorientating

Do you find entering third person conversations in DX disorientating? If not, why not? What is different about pressing a button to enter a conversation and pressing a button to enter cover? The camera position changes in both, but when entering cover at least you still have control of the camera.

[Orogun01]

Isn't that...sort of cheating? I mean you abuse the camera to look around a wall that your character shouldn't be able to see in his current position...it feels really cheap and what's wrong with just leaning?

I don't think so, I happen to have excellent peripheral vision in real life. Try working that into a game mechanic.