My Opinion of DS1 vs DS2 and Hopes for DS3

[Scowndrul]

I have played all of the DS games, and DS1 was by far the best. I thouroughly enjoyed the ability to freelance class without restriction, the massive number of spells that were available, the 8-player over 4-player support, the POSSIBILITY to PvP if you desired, (balanced or not, it was a good change of pace sometimes), creative weapons like flamethrowers and miniguns that in some way change the standard mean of fighting, the large beastiary of enemies, and just the sheer magnitude of the world giving lots of uncharted territory to explore and epic-sized battles for 8 people to swashbuckle their way through. We had many LAN parties back in the day with 8 of us just playing for 8+ hours. Then DS2 came out. We tried, but nobody had any fun. Everyone was just too powerful too fast with limit-break-style moves and just sheer badassery of characters. And since in DS2 everyone had to choose their path and had a select skill-tree it became very boring knowing exactly what you had ahead of you instead of building your way up upon the discovery of new spells and equipment. Both games did, however provide a wide variety of equipment, which was fantastic. I just hope to see this game much, much more similar to DS1 in the fact that they bring back a higher number of players to play cooperatively, have some sort of PvP available, and get rid of classes again. I was always excited when I would level up a certain discipline to see my new "earned class" rather than have chosen and being stuck with it since the beginning.

 

To break it down one more time:

Things I would like to see

-PvP

-No classes

-Tons of spells

-Huge worlds and overwhelming numbers of enemies for 8 people to take on

 

Things I would NOT like to see

-Small player support

-Boring classes with only around 20 skills

-Lack of modding

-Generic RPG gameplay with no innovations or creativity

 

Make a game that can give itself a name, not borrow ideas from everyone elses. DS1 did exactly that with freelance classing. That is all.

[Morgoth]

I know that the DS series has quite a formidable mod community, and co-op/multiplayer is a big deal, but me personally I only care about the singleplayer campaign. Hope Obsidian doesn't neglect that one.

[Hassat Hunter]

PvP (and cheating) murdered DS1's MP so I wasn't sad to see it go.

 

I preffered it stayed that way (gone).

[Scowndrul]

PvP (and cheating) murdered DS1's MP so I wasn't sad to see it go.

 

I preffered it stayed that way (gone).

 

PvP had nothing to do with cheating, and you had to opt to kill each other before the game started. Just because it was in the game didn't mean you had to participate. I simply believe it should be an option, and not completely omitted wether they care about balancing it or not. We had a good time making two teams of 4 and just fighting it out, and I feel like anything they can add to the game to make it more interesting should be there so it has any edge it can get.

 

I wouldn't be heartbroken if pvp was out though. At least not NEARLY as much as the other things I mentioned. The list was in no particular order. I suppose most strongly I feel confining players to a class really hurts the game's style. I would keep it the same way DS1 worked, but possibly add skills requiring a certain level of ranged or melee skill in order to perform them. This list would be much smaller than the spell list (ideally the spell list would be colossal) but would still add some variation to melee and ranged players gameplay. Obvioulsy it seems they are heading towards classes, though, which is disappointing to me. DS3 should be much more like DS1 than any of the other games for sure. Just read any given message in this forum and it is clear to see that the majority of the people favor the very first DS over any expansion or sequel. Fix the problems that hurt it, and build off of that game's concept.

[Draganta]

It is known that there are pre-made classes in the game

 

I started to lose interest when I heard that, so my hopes aren't that high anymore. I will still check DS3 out, but i'm sure it won't be like DS1

[Scowndrul]

Yeah, I've been playing DS1 just to get pumped about it. Hopefully it isn't disappointing, even with predefined classes.

[Labadal]

It is known that there are pre-made classes in the game

 

I started to lose interest when I heard that, so my hopes aren't that high anymore. I will still check DS3 out, but i'm sure it won't be like DS1

 

There will be pre-made classes if I am not mistaken. Guardia and Archon Mage are the ones I know of.

[Scowndrul]

Bump because this is serious.

[hopfrog16]

It is known that there are pre-made classes in the game

 

I started to lose interest when I heard that, so my hopes aren't that high anymore. I will still check DS3 out, but i'm sure it won't be like DS1

 

There will be pre-made classes if I am not mistaken. Guardia and Archon Mage are the ones I know of.

 

To be honest, the Archon Mage does look pretty awesome... I like the fact she can change into a fire elemental of sorts (from what I've read)... Reminds me of the transformation spells from the first game (well, after the expansion at least)... only not gimped, heh. It looks to me like the other caster will be a nature mage (judging by the lightning-ish glow coming from his hand off the website). Would be awesome if they brought back the orb spells and maybe the healing/buffing/debuffing spells (for those of us who enjoy playing support chars or might want to have a healer npc in the group). I would love powerful pet spells even more (like in the second game), but I don't think that would ever happen. =P

[Lord Elvewyn]

It is known that there are pre-made classes in the game

 

I started to lose interest when I heard that, so my hopes aren't that high anymore. I will still check DS3 out, but i'm sure it won't be like DS1

 

There will be pre-made classes if I am not mistaken. Guardia and Archon Mage are the ones I know of.

 

To be honest, the Archon Mage does look pretty awesome... I like the fact she can change into a fire elemental of sorts (from what I've read)... Reminds me of the transformation spells from the first game (well, after the expansion at least)... only not gimped, heh. It looks to me like the other caster will be a nature mage (judging by the lightning-ish glow coming from his hand off the website). Would be awesome if they brought back the orb spells and maybe the healing/buffing/debuffing spells (for those of us who enjoy playing support chars or might want to have a healer npc in the group). I would love powerful pet spells even more (like in the second game), but I don't think that would ever happen. =P

 

But the Archon's not a true Combat Mage but instead a hybrid, melee-combat mage character. There's already a melee character, and there looks to be a gunslinger - ranged\archer type. Presumably there will be a true mage released at some point in time but given there's only 1 character left to reveal I very much doubt they can squeeze in all the death\lightning\ice\healing\buff etc spells from DS1 & DS2 into the one character. Looks like magecraft gets nerfed by yet another game.

 

As an aside, are there any games where magic really gets the power that it should?

[HoonDing]

As an aside, are there any games where magic really gets the power that it should?

Baldur's Gate 2?

[Majek]

Magic is overpowered in all games so to make a great game magic mustn't play the biggest role.

[hopfrog16]

Magic is overpowered in all games so to make a great game magic mustn't play the biggest role.

 

Eh... That's a pretty broad generalization... Have you ever played Two Worlds? Terrible, terrible game... Unplayable as a mage, too. If you wanted to make any progress, you had to use weapons. Also Champions of Norrath: Return to Arms had very gimped magic, except for the Shaman. If you wanted to play the overpowered character in that game, barbarians were the ones with the never ending criticals for millions of damage... Until the patches for Diablo 2 that added synergies, playing a pure caster wasn't even an option in the end game (Although now, a lot of the caster classes are overpowered. Then again, so is every other class in that game, heh).

 

The very fact that the Archon has a melee stance suggests that staying in the magic casting stance would lead to a very quick death if one was swarmed (or at least that would be my guess). If some thought is put into the combat design, mages can be just as balanced as any class. =)

[Lord Elvewyn]

Magic is overpowered in all games so to make a great game magic mustn't play the biggest role.

 

Eh... That's a pretty broad generalization... Have you ever played Two Worlds? Terrible, terrible game... Unplayable as a mage, too. If you wanted to make any progress, you had to use weapons. Also Champions of Norrath: Return to Arms had very gimped magic, except for the Shaman. If you wanted to play the overpowered character in that game, barbarians were the ones with the never ending criticals for millions of damage... Until the patches for Diablo 2 that added synergies, playing a pure caster wasn't even an option in the end game (Although now, a lot of the caster classes are overpowered. Then again, so is every other class in that game, heh).

 

The very fact that the Archon has a melee stance suggests that staying in the magic casting stance would lead to a very quick death if one was swarmed (or at least that would be my guess). If some thought is put into the combat design, mages can be just as balanced as any class. =)

 

Mages should be just as balanceable as a class, but they usually aren't. Icewind Dale, NWN, even DS, while mages could be powerful they couldn't go toe to toe in PvP. I don't play PvP of course so it's not critical but DS is the only one that really allowed a mage to lead in single player and even then it can be challenging. Mages just have too low of damage:damage resistance. Personally I'm not interested in the urg me smash style of play, pretty lights, columns of fire and bolts of lightning raining from the skies are more more cup of tea but as to whether that'll be possible ... Basic rule of thumb in pretty much all RPG games I've played is that mindless meleeists rule. Give them magic resistance and they're unstoppable.

 

TQ might be a bit different. You assign points so can max out strength to the limit to get the best armour available to a meleeist, you have range which gives you a couple of early attacks and if you go the Dream & Death schools you get some percentage based bonuses, e.g. 10% vitality reduction if the enemy closes to melee range. Most of the 'spells' are fixed damage so it doesn't scale but the summons do to some degree and the stuns are always useful.

 

Mages should play like machine guns versus knights. They can't absorb the damage a knight can but if they open fire first the meleeist goes down fast! I might be slightly biased of course

[Sannom]

Basic rule of thumb in pretty much all RPG games I've played is that mindless meleeists rule. Give them magic resistance and they're unstoppable.

 

You've never played enough of Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights 2

[HoonDing]

Well, in NWN & NWN2 magic kinda sucks balls.

[Sannom]

Well, in NWN & NWN2 magic kinda sucks balls.

 

Seriously ? High enough level mage buffs himself to make himself indestructible and then mops the floor with his enemies!

[HoonDing]

I played through HotU as a pure fighter once and one-shotted Baalors with that +8 sword.

 

Let's just say that *arcane* magic sucks balls in 3rd & 3.5 edition. Clerics filling their entire spellbook with Persistent Buffs are better than fighters and invulnerable against everything. Ask Kaelyn.

[hopfrog16]

Well, in NWN & NWN2 magic kinda sucks balls.

 

Not sure about NWN2, but in NWN I've played a lot of player created servers where magic was very well balanced with every other style of play. Leave it to the community to take something unbalanced and fix it.

[Labadal]

I felt mages were overpowered in NWN. i didn't like playing as one myself, but I saw what they were capable of in PvP.

[Azilis]

I have played all of the DS games, and DS1 was by far the best. I thouroughly enjoyed the ability to freelance class without restriction, the massive number of spells that were available, the 8-player over 4-player support, the POSSIBILITY to PvP if you desired, (balanced or not, it was a good change of pace sometimes), creative weapons like flamethrowers and miniguns that in some way change the standard mean of fighting, the large beastiary of enemies, and just the sheer magnitude of the world giving lots of uncharted territory to explore and epic-sized battles for 8 people to swashbuckle their way through. We had many LAN parties back in the day with 8 of us just playing for 8+ hours. Then DS2 came out. We tried, but nobody had any fun. Everyone was just too powerful too fast with limit-break-style moves and just sheer badassery of characters. And since in DS2 everyone had to choose their path and had a select skill-tree it became very boring knowing exactly what you had ahead of you instead of building your way up upon the discovery of new spells and equipment. Both games did, however provide a wide variety of equipment, which was fantastic. I just hope to see this game much, much more similar to DS1 in the fact that they bring back a higher number of players to play cooperatively, have some sort of PvP available, and get rid of classes again. I was always excited when I would level up a certain discipline to see my new "earned class" rather than have chosen and being stuck with it since the beginning.

 

Well, from a single-player perspective, I loved DS2 whereas DS1 basically just impressed me with its pretty graphics. The combat and very basic freeform class leveling systems got monotonous after a while. (I tend to dislike freeform leveling systems, though.) Skill trees (which I believe are not going to feature in DS3) IMO, are a lot more fun because you're always working towards something. Knowing where you're going to place your next skill points makes it boring? Seriosuly? If the choices are extremely limited, maybe you're right, but I remember the skill trees being pretty extensive in DS2.

[Scowndrul]

The skill trees in DS2 were alright, but I still feel like EVERY single skill should have been available to anyone. If a person wanted to use point in both archer and warrior skills, so be it. At least the option is there to be more versatile. I just want to have the option to change pace and use skills in combination with one another rather than be confined to what the game tells me I can do. That is why I prefer DS1.

[Lord Elvewyn]

I felt mages were overpowered in NWN. i didn't like playing as one myself, but I saw what they were capable of in PvP.

 

Obviously I love playing them but NWN didn't overpower them, if anything they were underpowered. They had some nice area effect attacks but since they couldn't take damage and didn't do major damage against any one foe for the most part, plus some foes were immune to magic I was disappointed about their strength. I played a Weapon Master later and he just cleaved his way through. No running away just stand and kill everything that comes near. NWN2's the same of course.

 

DS1&2 I led with a mage character but again it seemed unbalanced. Mages are really intended as support characters for parties with more than enough strong melee characters. Not that they should be but that's the way it seems to me from my playing. Of course if I were smart I'd play a melee character but clearly I'm not.

[hopfrog16]

The skill trees in DS2 were alright, but I still feel like EVERY single skill should have been available to anyone. If a person wanted to use point in both archer and warrior skills, so be it. At least the option is there to be more versatile. I just want to have the option to change pace and use skills in combination with one another rather than be confined to what the game tells me I can do. That is why I prefer DS1.

 

Cross classing in DS2 was difficult, but deffinitly possible in DS2 for certain setups. Only problem, though, is that you had to keep changing your weapon/spell after every level. Some of my funnest builds were cross classes... A 50/50 combat/nature mage summoner, for example. Sure, the combat magic pets seem weak at first, but later on you will be glad for the diversity on pet selection (especially if you don't play with henchmen). If you like playing healers, the best healers you can make are melee/nature 50/50 (because of the obscene healing% items you can dual wield with the expansion... Not to mention the fist of stone healing ability). If you like the idea of a mage that uses melee attacks, make a fist of stone and pump his intelligence... Invest in his quake strikes (or whatever it's called... I forget), get dual wield, and get weapons with the most powerful procs you can... Nothing kills faster in DS2 other than this build that I've seen yet. That's one thing I loved about DS2... Lot's of diversity in character building. =) Just takes a little imagination, and willingness to try new stuff.

[Maa-Jussi]

Only 4 pre-made characters to choose from, no party and no pack mule...

 

How can they call this game Dungeon Siege?

 

Jussi