The Iraq war was a disgrace, but sometimes we forget just how much

[BruceVC]

I could kind of take it when we had random racists wandering through here because they'd say about three things, get shouted at, and clear off. The pattern has been consistent ever since I joined years ago.

 

oby doesn't clear off because oby is a bloody alt. and that alt is the tramp publicly urinating in the art gallery.

 

The only people pandering to and encouraging oby are the mods for letting the halfwit behind the alt play games with the forum rules.

 

But his personality is more complicated that that , he doesn't make posts that I find truly offensive..just annoying with there lack of substance. There is always a sliver of  truth to what he says or rather he makes his points in a way that could be feasible. So you'll notice he will say something  like " Americans show there weakness by not engaging with ISIS directly, Americans only brave when fly high in plane ( I know my Oby talk isn't accurate, its just an example  )

 

Now his comment is not true because its ignoring the obvious logistical and political issues with boots on the ground but you know there are plenty of people on these forums who  don't like America and believe in conspiracy theories so this type of comment resonates with them. So I feel he treads a fine and intentional line around the forum rules, he  knows what he can't say and his constant justification of his views is always supported by links from RT or other websites that lack real credibility...which he is also aware of that he  cant be penalized by the Mods for  because he "is just discussing what another website said "

 

So I don't envy the Mods because I would hate to have to judge what of his posts are really a breach of forum rules 

Edited August 11, 2014 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

People whinging about oby again?

 

Also regarding the Kurds and arming them - point was guns you control are better than ones you have to trust. Wonder if Turkey minds that (if that matters)

Edited August 11, 2014 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

People whinging about oby again?

 

Also regarding the Kurds and arming them - point was guns you control are better than ones you have to trust. Wonder if Turkey minds that (if that matters)

 People whinging about the fact we are whinging about Oby again ?

[Malcador]

Seems so, but is amusing to watch the usual people wring their hands about it. If the moderators have no problem (assuming you people report it..) then you just have to ignore him or deal with it. Not really that hard, but for some reason, you can't do it.

[BruceVC]

Seems so, but is amusing to watch the usual people wring their hands about it. If the moderators have no problem (assuming you people report it..) then you just have to ignore him or deal with it. Not really that hard, but for some reason, you can't do it.

I'll tell you something Malc. Do you know in all my years of being on the Internet I have never ever reported anyone, even when I am really offended by there comments

[Leferd]

I've reported several people. But they were all by accident.

 

Parts of the peril of using a tablet or smartphone- sometime you press the report button when trying to swipe at the screen. It's not all typos and bad auto-corrects.

[Agiel]

 

Vice News footage had an interview with an IS fighter saying something to the effect of "Stop being cowards by sending your drones at us."

 

My eternal answer to that proposition is "If you stop hiding behind the skirts of women and children then you will find that the American infantrymen will more than gladly oblige your request, and you shall find that they're more than able to mow you down all the same."

 

That's silly. As if an actual equal fight would happen in a modern war. American infantrymen would call air strikes and artillery strikes and use all the equipment their enemy doesn't have the first chance they get. Same as any infantry.

 

Lets face it. Give any infantry same equipment, same numbers, same meagre provisions and same living conditions as say the Taliban and send them into Afghanistan. I think the bravado about how great and tough they are will end very very quickly.

 

 

That's kind of the point. I find it hilarious that IS choose to use human shields, then once confronted with a weapon that leaves very little in the way of footprints and offers unheard of levels of precision they yell out like schoolyard children "Hey! No fair!"

[Rostere]

That's silly. As if an actual equal fight would happen in a modern war. American infantrymen would call air strikes and artillery strikes and use all the equipment their enemy doesn't have the first chance they get. Same as any infantry.

 

Lets face it. Give any infantry same equipment, same numbers, same meagre provisions and same living conditions as say the Taliban and send them into Afghanistan. I think the bravado about how great and tough they are will end very very quickly.

 

I'm sure the American army are not the best swordsmen or spearmen either.

 

What was your point again?

[Monte Carlo]

The Americans would struggle for a while while they got used to not having fast air and support weapons.

 

Then they'd adapt. Their superior small unit tactics would prevail. They would, in short, kick the snot out of the Taliban. The idea that the only metric of a fighting man's effectiveness is linked to support assets is palpably incorrect. Were that so most pre-1914 warfare would have ended in stalemate.

 

In fact, given that the Spartans would have lost at Thermopylae and the Greek demos never occurred, we'd all be living in some sort of high Medieval dystopia and the point would be moot.

[Malcador]

That's kind of the point. I find it hilarious that IS choose to use human shields, then once confronted with a weapon that leaves very little in the way of footprints and offers unheard of levels of precision they yell out like schoolyard children "Hey! No fair!"

Well, it's like IEDs, one works with the tools one has and it's not always fair. Somehow I don't think they'll complain about being bombed by these awesome weapons that much, plenty of experience on how to fight Americans in that part of the world, at least how to fight and not get obliterated anyway.

[Zoraptor]

I'm not even clear what oby said that was even 'racist', unless something has gone bye bye. The retards referred to were ISIS, not kurds, and so far as I'm aware madcap muslim militiaman is not an ethnicity/ race.

 

They are also the only group in the region organized and willing enough to take in ISIS head on, as they themselves are under attack. The Iraqi government are too much in shambles to fight if the ISIS threat.

 

That certainly was the conventional wisdom, but the reason for the intervention now is that that has not proved to actually be the case. The whole reason for the Yazidis being on Mt Sinjar and ISIS having control of a major dam is because the peshmerga folded- maybe not as spectacularly as the main Iraqi army, but they lost badly enough that Irbil was within artillery range and they lost half a dozen decent sized towns/ cities within a few days. Both the Iraqi and Syrian armies have largely- but not in Syria's case entirely- stopped ISIS advancing further and in Syria's case they've even retaken quite significant areas.

 

Plus, the Kurds had the somewhat odious approach of seizing Kirkuk where they did perform limited ethnically cleansing of minorities last time they held it (plus targeted abductions etc throughout the US occupation) under the guise of it being a historically Kurd city resettled by Saddam; and then announcing they'd declare independence. Which will be interesting, given the west's attitude to other independence movements, plus Turkey and the central Iraqi authorities' reaction.

 

It's not that the Kurds have an easy job of course, they've got a massive front to defend, but the same is true- even more so- for the Iraqi and Syria armies. Truth is that ISIS is probably the best led armed force in the area, including peshmerga and the regular armies of both Syria and Iraq and has the advantage of choosing where to attack. They've gone from basically nothing to an area the size of a decent sized country in a few years, after all.

[obyknven]

Truth is that ISIS is probably the best led armed force in the area, including peshmerga and the regular armies of both Syria and Iraq and has the advantage of choosing where to attack. They've gone from basically nothing to an area the size of a decent sized country in a few years, after all.

If we talk about military power - most powerfull armies in region is IDF, Iranian and Turkish military forces. Kurdish PKK fighters, or Syrian troops are not most powerfull military forces in region, but even they  constantly beat ISIS (Syrians almost win war against intervents and PKK show own coolness also (while pro-West Kurdish official military forces make bad performance)).

http://www.diclehaber.com/en/news/content/view/414766?from=919196554

In other words minor powers in region (not even in world) don't fear fight against ISIS, while proud warriors of country pretended be most powerful in world hide own butts in fortified bases and shell random civilian installations. In other words US/NATO pretensions to be a most powerful military force in world  are baseless. Actually even Ukrainian army looks more combat ready than NATO forces (at least Ukrainians flee only after loosing of 2/3 manpower, and even after this some almost destroyed units try acts offensive, in same situation NATO army just surrender much earlier).

All talks about using aerial forces/artillery against guerilla fighters are baseless (these methods only give more support to guerilla ). Only one cure against guerilla exist - own well-trained guerilla forces, but NATO don't have qualified warriors for this and because of this these posers just shell towns instead( this tactics can't ended by different way than Vietnam war ).

Just reminders how do this right .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-partisan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selous_Scouts

[Volourn]

. "There is always a sliver of  truth to what he says or rather he makes his points in a way that could be feasible."
 

No.

[Leferd]

 

They are also the only group in the region organized and willing enough to take in ISIS head on, as they themselves are under attack. The Iraqi government are too much in shambles to fight if the ISIS threat.

 

 

That certainly was the conventional wisdom, but the reason for the intervention now is that that has not proved to actually be the case. The whole reason for the Yazidis being on Mt Sinjar and ISIS having control of a major dam is because the peshmerga folded- maybe not as spectacularly as the main Iraqi army, but they lost badly enough that Irbil was within artillery range and they lost half a dozen decent sized towns/ cities within a few days. Both the Iraqi and Syrian armies have largely- but not in Syria's case entirely- stopped ISIS advancing further and in Syria's case they've even retaken quite significant areas.

 

Plus, the Kurds had the somewhat odious approach of seizing Kirkuk where they did perform limited ethnically cleansing of minorities last time they held it (plus targeted abductions etc throughout the US occupation) under the guise of it being a historically Kurd city resettled by Saddam; and then announcing they'd declare independence. Which will be interesting, given the west's attitude to other independence movements, plus Turkey and the central Iraqi authorities' reaction.

 

It's not that the Kurds have an easy job of course, they've got a massive front to defend, but the same is true- even more so- for the Iraqi and Syria armies. Truth is that ISIS is probably the best led armed force in the area, including peshmerga and the regular armies of both Syria and Iraq and has the advantage of choosing where to attack. They've gone from basically nothing to an area the size of a decent sized country in a few years, after all.

Kurds suffered from a bit of hubris, having not been routed from battle in a long time but let's not kid ourselves. Kurds lost territory to ISIS because they were simply outgunned and ran out of ammo. The Peshmerga are essentially a light infantry force in Toyotas going up against heavy artillery and armored humvees. They were promised US weapons that was to be distributed by the Iraq government that never got to them. Surprise, surprise...

 

And if you are Turkey, you gotta remember that the Kurds are all that stands in the way between ISIS and your border.

[Tigranes]

oby is a manifestation of the non-communicability which is at the heart of all political conversation, though democracy tries to pretend it doesn't exist: there are people and there are positions that those people occupy which cannot be reached and flushed out through the facts, reason and ideals all of you share, because they don't abide by them. What do you do with them? We used to kill them. Nowadays we try to 'respect' them, but really, does anyone believe that's the solution anymore? So, what will you do with oby? Ho ho. 

 

(This rambling does not represent the moderators' position on oby or anybody else. If anybody really can't stand him or a particular post, let us know by normal means. Anyway, let's get back to Iraq, shall we?)

[Volourn]

"All talks about using aerial forces/artillery against guerilla fighters are baseless (these methods only give more support to guerilla ). Only one cure against guerilla exist - own well-trained guerilla forces, but NATO don't have qualified warriors for this and because of this these posers just shell towns instead( this tactics can't ended by different way than Vietnam war ).

Just reminders how do this right ."

 

A reminder of the Vietnam war? Is that the war where casualties suffered by the US was FAR less than their enemies? Hmm.. The only reason why Amerika 'lost' that war is because of people back home wanting the war to end not because theyw ere 'beat'.

 

 

As for Oby, the ebst way to treat him is like one would treat any hateful bigot - laugh at their small mind.

[Zoraptor]

 

Truth is that ISIS is probably the best led armed force in the area, including peshmerga and the regular armies of both Syria and Iraq and has the advantage of choosing where to attack. They've gone from basically nothing to an area the size of a decent sized country in a few years, after all.

If we talk about military power - most powerfull armies in region is IDF, Iranian and Turkish military forces.

 

ISIS holds no territory in any of those places, nor has it fought them (except some Iranian irregulars, maybe) so there's no way to compare. And of course ISIS refers to Iraq and al-Sham, which also includes none of those countries. I'll take the IS moniker seriously when they've shown they aren't a flash in the pan, then they can be compared to the greater regional powers.

 

Kurds suffered from a bit of hubris, having not been routed from battle in a long time but let's not kid ourselves. Kurds lost territory to ISIS because they were simply outgunned and ran out of ammo. The Peshmerga are essentially a light infantry force in Toyotas going up against heavy artillery and armored humvees.

 

I've yet to see much evidence that ISIS aren't still essentially a light infantry force as well. They've captured some stuff and some supplies from Iraq and Syria, but I cannot imagine that they're stronger than, say, Saddam was in that regard, and the peshmerga held him off for a decade post GW1- and captured a lot of hardware as well, when Saddam went down.

 

Having said that, I don't necessarily think that the peshmerga are poor, but I do think it's clear at this point that ISIS are very well lead- unfortunately, as I have no sympathy whatsoever for their goals or methods, but it gains nothing to deny it. A month ago there were a lot of people who were writing ISIS off as never having come up against a competent fighting force, like the peshmerga who would kick their arse when given the chance and would not have the morale and reliability problems the main Iraqi army so obviously had. Well, they did have problems, as it turned out.

[Leferd]

Yep. Well I sincerely hope now that they are receiving better weaponry and supplies, as well as assistance from USAF and US Navy sorties -they'll be in a better position to overcome ISIS. It'll definitely help now that they are getting cooperation from the Iraqi military as well.

 

It didn't help that the Peshmerga were literally on their own for the last two months and stretched too thin. ISIS is definitely well coordinated and they have respectable resources, but they'll have trouble moving en masse now that Air Superiority is back with the good guys.

[obyknven]

 

A reminder of the Vietnam war? Is that the war where casualties suffered by the US was FAR less than their enemies? Hmm.. The only reason why Amerika 'lost' that war is because of people back home wanting the war to end not because theyw ere 'beat'.

Facepalm. Guy try justify US failure in Vietnam by huge civilian casulaties due US genocidal tactics of terror. Be butcher and be a victor is quite different things.

 

 

Yep. Well I sincerely hope now that they are receiving better weaponry and supplies, as well as assistance from USAF and US Navy sorties -they'll be in a better position to overcome ISIS. It'll definitely help now that they are getting cooperation from the Iraqi military as well.

 

It didn't help that the Peshmerga were literally on their own for the last two months and stretched too thin. ISIS is definitely well coordinated and they have respectable resources, but they'll have trouble moving en masse now that Air Superiority is back with the good guys.

Nope. Peshmerga are posers, while PKK  and YPG has  real military power but West portray these freedom fighters as terrorists.

http://new-middle-east.blogspot.ru/2014/08/ypg-and-pkk-forcesthe-unsung-heroes-of.html?showComment=1407776515385

 

 The Islamic State’s (IS) fascist agenda regarding Iraq'sYezidi population was not a secret to anyone. Yet the Peshmerga forces of Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) president, Massoud Barzani, who had promised the Yezidis of Sinjar and surrounding areas protection, abandoned them without warning after being attacked, leaving them to their fate at the hands of the IS. The result has been genocide.

 

You don't understand simple things. Iraq has been invaded by NATO,  West kill huge amount of people here, for Iraq citiezens they are  nothing more than hated occupants and anyone who have deals with them are collaborators. Serve in pro-West toy armies (Iraq military forces or US supported Peshmerga) is too shameful and only worst people do this - morality of these units extremely low. Because of this even armed by artillery/tanks and supported by US airstrikes they lose war against poor equipped but fanatical ISIS warriors. US puppet regime in Iraq lose this war anyway, it's just question of time.

 

Murican Marine feel hurting because of this

http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.ru/2014/08/second-line-of-defense-gets-it.html

 

So the reason why the Iraqi Army folded like a cheap suit is because they didn't have an air dominance enabled ground force?

 

BULL****!

 

They were defending and they outnumbered their attackers!

 

They were better equipped and had heavy armor (M1 Tanks), heavy artillery (M198 Howitzers), armored personnel carriers (Armored Security Vehicles), and a whole slew of MRAPs and Humvees.

 

The problem wasn't the lack of airpower, the problem is the quality of the Iraqi fighting man. 

[HoonDing]

And if you are Turkey, you gotta remember that the Kurds are all that stands in the way between ISIS and your border.

The Turks would destroy Isis, they are just happily looking at the sidelines hoping for as many Kurd deaths as possible.

[Volourn]

"Facepalm. Guy try justify US failure in Vietnam by huge civilian casulaties due US genocidal tactics of terror. Be butcher and be a victor is quite different things."

 

L0L I justified nothing. I stated facts. The Vietnamese suffered way more casualties than the US in that war. The US didn't 'lose' ebcause they got beat by Vietnam they 'lost' because Amerikans in their home coutnry beat them. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

[Bester]

"Facepalm. Guy try justify US failure in Vietnam by huge civilian casulaties due US genocidal tactics of terror. Be butcher and be a victor is quite different things."

 

L0L I justified nothing. I stated facts. The Vietnamese suffered way more casualties than the US in that war. The US didn't 'lose' ebcause they got beat by Vietnam they 'lost' because Amerikans in their home coutnry beat them. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

 

We all know how americans went into villages, massacred everyone and then called them VC on their reports. Ok, it's known that the only way to fight a guerilla war with a regular army is to bleed the civilian population so much that it becomes incapable of supporting the irregulars living in the forests. But it doesn't mean you can seriously call them 'casualties'.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Bester

[Volourn]

K.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Got to love the wisdom of our government : http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-adviser-jihadists-caliphate-absurd_802853.html?utm_campaign=Washington+Examiner&utm_source=washingtonexaminer.com&utm_medium=referral

[Namutree]

Got to love the wisdom of our government : http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-adviser-jihadists-caliphate-absurd_802853.html?utm_campaign=Washington+Examiner&utm_source=washingtonexaminer.com&utm_medium=referral

The stupidity and incompetence of the government is never news, but people still insist it's an institution that should never stop growing.