Confirmed: more than a hack & slash

[Dark_Raven]

There will be story? WoWsers!

[Nathaniel Chapman]

My opinion on infinite vs. restricted ammo (for guns or bows or whatever) is that it's a good thing when it makes for interesting decisions. For example, take a 9mm SMG vs a 9mm pistol in a theoretical game. Both do the same damage per bullet in this game, but the SMG has a much higher rate of fire and is less accurate than the 9mm pistol. I think restricted ammo could make this an interesting decision, because it adds a 2nd way of rating the quality of weapons. With infinite ammo, you're just asking "what is the most efficient way to defeat an enemy in terms of damage per second (a.k.a damage efficiency)" whereas with restricted ammo you're asking "what is the best balance between damage per bullet (i.e. cost efficiency) and damage efficiency". In some cases, it might be worth it to use the pistol in close range because you can't afford to lose the cost of the bullets that would miss even if the firing rate made up for the damage that would be lost by the missed bullets. If this doesn't make sense I can clarify.

 

But I think a lot of games have limited ammo because "that's what games do" and there's nothing really interesting about it. For instance, I think limited ammo in a lot of dungeon crawl ARPGs are unnecessary. They act mostly as a time limit on your adventuring because you don't generally have different ammo types, they only affect certain classes, and you already have plenty of things in these games that limit your adventuring time. Like, depending on the game, health potions, limited inventory, etc.

 

I think New Vegas is doing a good job with this. Limited ammo matters a lot in that game because ammo is (in general) kind of scarce, ammo types are strongly differentiated, and so saving and being smart about how you "spend" your ammo is something you have to do.

[Oner]

I think New Vegas is doing a good job with this. Limited ammo matters a lot in that game because ammo is (in general) kind of scarce, ammo types are strongly differentiated, and so saving and being smart about how you "spend" your ammo is something you have to do.

One of the first mods will be a More Ammo mod. And it will be popular.

Because everyone is diiiiim.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I think New Vegas is doing a good job with this. Limited ammo matters a lot in that game because ammo is (in general) kind of scarce, ammo types are strongly differentiated, and so saving and being smart about how you "spend" your ammo is something you have to do.

 

 

P.S. : So will we have infinite arrows in DSIII?

[Humodour]

But I think a lot of games have limited ammo because "that's what games do" and there's nothing really interesting about it. For instance, I think limited ammo in a lot of dungeon crawl ARPGs are unnecessary. They act mostly as a time limit on your adventuring because you don't generally have different ammo types, they only affect certain classes, and you already have plenty of things in these games that limit your adventuring time. Like, depending on the game, health potions, limited inventory, etc.

 

Take Icewind Dale as an example, Nathaniel. Would you suggest it should have unlimited ammo?

 

To my mind the ideal scenario in that game would be unlimited basic ammo (mundane bullets, bolts, arrows, darts) but LIMITED magic ammo (e.g. fire arrows, dispelling arrows, etc).

 

How will you handle it in Dungeon Siege? Will you add different ammo types? That would be cool! It would add a fun new dimension to the otherwise slightly boring archer class.

[Wombat]

But I think a lot of games have limited ammo because "that's what games do" and there's nothing really interesting about it. For instance, I think limited ammo in a lot of dungeon crawl ARPGs are unnecessary. They act mostly as a time limit on your adventuring because you don't generally have different ammo types, they only affect certain classes, and you already have plenty of things in these games that limit your adventuring time. Like, depending on the game, health potions, limited inventory, etc.

Then, have you thought about this kind of system, I mean, a system which differentiates "ammo" for spell/special ability slots?

 

This may make a good shooter/ARPG hybrid since, in ARPG, there are enemies which are weak to certain attacks traditionally categorized into elemental/pure energy attacks. Although there are enemy types which are weak to certain attacks, the player may only find "ammo" for different attacks if they don't think twice before using their limited resource. There can be ammo differentiation for area vs individual attacks (in FONV, there seems to be such differentiation), too. However, in a fantasy setting, things can be more flexible. Spellcaster/ability user may be able to choose between area and individual attacks when using the spell/ability in question like switching shooting mode for automatic rifles in shooters.

[Humodour]

I thought the Evil Wizard plot was pretty cool, even if in hindsight it was cliched. It may have been reasonably simple, but that's not a bad thing. They chose something compelling and fleshed it out and polished it. It wasn't bad at all. Better than a lot of other game plots out there (certainly better than the Diablo series for example).

 

I am assuming that was sarcasm.... you really have something against the Diablo series.

 

Nope, I spent 6 years playing Diablo 1 and 2 and will spend another couple playing Diablo 3.

[Hassat Hunter]

As said before, I doubt DS III will have limited arrows. The arrowupgrade suggestion from Krezack is good, but I suppose, like any gear, it would probably be an stat increase for the infinite arrows, not limiting them in the progress.

Or it could draw upon mana instead.

[Humodour]

As said before, I doubt DS III will have limited arrows. The arrowupgrade suggestion from Krezack is good, but I suppose, like any gear, it would probably be an stat increase for the infinite arrows, not limiting them in the progress.

Or it could draw upon mana instead.

 

Interesting concept. It would give the mana pool a purpose for non-mages!

[Oner]

As said before, I doubt DS III will have limited arrows. The arrowupgrade suggestion from Krezack is good, but I suppose, like any gear, it would probably be an stat increase for the infinite arrows, not limiting them in the progress.

Or it could draw upon mana instead.

Interesting concept. It would give the mana pool a purpose for non-mages!

You're talking as if no one did this before.

[Hassat Hunter]

Yeah, that was kind of the idea of the Blood Archer of the DS2 X-pack, although it didn't work quite that good in said purpose.

[Wombat]

But I think a lot of games have limited ammo because "that's what games do" and there's nothing really interesting about it. For instance, I think limited ammo in a lot of dungeon crawl ARPGs are unnecessary. They act mostly as a time limit on your adventuring because you don't generally have different ammo types, they only affect certain classes, and you already have plenty of things in these games that limit your adventuring time. Like, depending on the game, health potions, limited inventory, etc.

Kind of agreed. Especially in heavy fantasy settings, where characters have strength to kill beasts much bigger than themselves, I hadn't found the point in tracking numbers of encumbrance rules. In many cases, they are not aiming at trying to express factors which are important in game-play. So, it was a fresh change of air when I came across with the encumbrance rule of Rune Quest 3rd ed. It has a clear aim to express the penalty of wearing heavy equipment. It is designed to express such a situation where a lightly equipped fighter is evading heavy brows from his/her heavily equipped opponent, patiently awaiting for the moment when the opponent gets worn out. As a game-play, it adds a tactical dimension while expressing the tense, letting the players feel as if they were hearing heart-beats of their characters. Likewise, FONV's encumbrance seems to be designed to add a tactical/strategic dimension while expressing the sense of survival to the players.

 

Personally, I like systems which are clearly aimed to express something/add some factors rather than blindly following some previously established stereotypes.

 

Interesting concept. It would give the mana pool a purpose for non-mages!

You're talking as if no one did this before.

Yes, I guess Dragon Age combined mana with stamina.

[Irrelevant]

I hope Obsidian is using some Square Enix technology to strengthen the bond between the two companies. Obsidian on FInal Fantasy would make a dream come true.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I hope Obsidian is using some Square Enix technology to strengthen the bond between the two companies. Obsidian on FInal Fantasy would make a dream come true.

 

Just keep in mind that we're talking about Square Enix USA here.

But maybe, you know, a cinematic or two, like with Deus Ex : Human Revolution

[Sannom]

Yeah, but Project X was known by every SE fan out there, waiting anxiously for the announcement. Heck, you could say that only the people on this forum, thanks to funcroc's steady stream of information, knew that it would probably have nothing to do with SE Japan. That twitter account really clarified some things before the announcement for us.

[Irrelevant]

Oh, Damn, thats what I get for reading the whole er, story first.

Um, on another note, if Obsidian gets the whole ammo managent/quantity thing down New Vegas won't just be a good RPG but an Execellent shooter as well(I can't think of any first person shooters that have done this properly)

[Hassat Hunter]

System Shock 2.

 

Although yeah, that was a Looooong time ago (and it's no really a FPS).

[Nathaniel Chapman]

But I think a lot of games have limited ammo because "that's what games do" and there's nothing really interesting about it. For instance, I think limited ammo in a lot of dungeon crawl ARPGs are unnecessary. They act mostly as a time limit on your adventuring because you don't generally have different ammo types, they only affect certain classes, and you already have plenty of things in these games that limit your adventuring time. Like, depending on the game, health potions, limited inventory, etc.

 

Take Icewind Dale as an example, Nathaniel. Would you suggest it should have unlimited ammo?

 

To my mind the ideal scenario in that game would be unlimited basic ammo (mundane bullets, bolts, arrows, darts) but LIMITED magic ammo (e.g. fire arrows, dispelling arrows, etc).

 

How will you handle it in Dungeon Siege? Will you add different ammo types? That would be cool! It would add a fun new dimension to the otherwise slightly boring archer class.

 

I think IWD is a tricky case.

 

Players may have built in expectations coming from D&D and so free, unlimited basic ammo might be a tough sell. I do think that in games like IWD ammo should stack higher per inventory slot.

 

I think from a pure mechanics perspective, D&D aside, for a game like IWD, I agree with you that unlimited basic ammo and limited magic ammo is one good way to go, especially if the ammo is not +1/+2 type ammo but rather special effect ammo (like dispelling arrows, as you mentioned).

 

I think ammo selection can be pretty finnicky though in a party based game. In a single character game like Fallout, switching around ammo types is a lot less fiddly, and gets in the way of combat less (even in FO3/NV where combat is real time). Also, in Fallout almost every character will want to carry at least one or two types of ammo, so it's not like in fantasy games where ammo requirements only affect one or two classes or character types.

 

I think a good route to go for games that are not trying to be super realistic would be to eliminate ammo entirely as something the player manages, and instead give the player special skills or abilities with guns that are on cooldown or consume from some resource pool. I think that has advantages in that 1) it avoids forcing ammo using characters into spending inventory space on ammo when other characters do not and 2) it makes game balance more unified, which tends to mean classes are balanced better.

 

Finally, I think an important thing to consider is the player's expectation of the game as a simulation. Some games, like Fallout and D&D, tend to build the expectation of slightly more "sim-ey" combat, and unlimited ammo can violate those expectations. I think other games (like WoW for instance) have less of an expectation of sim-ey combat, so they can get away with abstracting out ammo.

[Tigranes]

I know you're coming from a pretty reasonable and organised perspective, but when I just look at the game and see how I enjoy it, there's a kick out of using different ammo, as well. It's an additional item type (and thus additional type of loot); it's a perishable good, which adds an element of excitement and tactical planning; and it feels just as good as using a special ability or magic spell to blast the enemy away. Not to mention the expectations of verisimilitude you mentioned.

 

I think one could potentially go with something like Diablo 2's arrow skills, or unlimited basic arrows, but abstract and streamline it too much, and I think it'll take out a lot of the feel good factor, as well as immersion. I don't think ammo should be merged into some mana soup.

[Nathaniel Chapman]

I know you're coming from a pretty reasonable and organised perspective, but when I just look at the game and see how I enjoy it, there's a kick out of using different ammo, as well. It's an additional item type (and thus additional type of loot); it's a perishable good, which adds an element of excitement and tactical planning; and it feels just as good as using a special ability or magic spell to blast the enemy away. Not to mention the expectations of verisimilitude you mentioned.

 

I think one could potentially go with something like Diablo 2's arrow skills, or unlimited basic arrows, but abstract and streamline it too much, and I think it'll take out a lot of the feel good factor, as well as immersion. I don't think ammo should be merged into some mana soup.

 

I don't really agree that the basic, normal ammo that you carry around and gets consumed with each shot feels as good as using a special ability or magical spell. Generally I feel it's one of several things that's lost in the noise of general RPG upkeep. I don't find purchasing ammo every time I get back to town to be a particularly fun or engaging activity.

 

Ultimately it's just a choice of what flavor you're going for with your gameplay. If fiddling with ammo fits in with the spirit of the game, it's good as long as you build interesting mechanics to support it. If it doesn't fit with the spirit of the game, it can feel a little mundane and overly tweaky.

[pmp10]

I think a good route to go for games that are not trying to be super realistic would be to eliminate ammo entirely as something the player manages, and instead give the player special skills or abilities with guns that are on cooldown or consume from some resource pool. I think that has advantages in that 1) it avoids forcing ammo using characters into spending inventory space on ammo when other characters do not and 2) it makes game balance more unified, which tends to mean classes are balanced better.

While I understand the reasoning behind it doesn

[LadyCrimson]

Part of inventory clogging, at least in early-mid stages of most phat-loot games, is the desire to accrue lots of gold, so one is constantly stuffing inventory full of things you don't care about, but just want to sell...and thus you feel like you're constantly running back to town & want ever more backpack space. Later when you care less about "gold" you hardly pick up anything.

 

I liked Divine Divinity's limited merchant gold+barter system. It decreased my 'pick up for loot' issues a lot in that regard.

 

Also, count me in the camp of being at least somewhat annoyed in games like BG with the stacks of arrows/slingshot stones not having a high number. When you had a full party and liked to fight ranged with them all, I'd have two chrs. holding nothing but ammo. That said, I don't mind ammo-carrying limitations being in place, but imo it shouldn't be a serious disadvantage compared to non-ammo classes in my getting thru a dungeon/area.

 

Tanks need health potions after all and wizards constantly purchase something that refills mana. I think the point should be not to force players to overrelay on such items or at least use them is such way that acquiring them doesn

[Wombat]

I think a good route to go for games that are not trying to be super realistic would be to eliminate ammo entirely as something the player manages, and instead give the player special skills or abilities with guns that are on cooldown or consume from some resource pool. I think that has advantages in that 1) it avoids forcing ammo using characters into spending inventory space on ammo when other characters do not and 2) it makes game balance more unified, which tends to mean classes are balanced better.

This sounds like the design direction Bioware took for Dragon Age. To be honest, I thought you may have come up with more interesting ideas but we know it works, at least.

 

While I understand the reasoning behind it doesn

[Nathaniel Chapman]

I think a good route to go for games that are not trying to be super realistic would be to eliminate ammo entirely as something the player manages, and instead give the player special skills or abilities with guns that are on cooldown or consume from some resource pool. I think that has advantages in that 1) it avoids forcing ammo using characters into spending inventory space on ammo when other characters do not and 2) it makes game balance more unified, which tends to mean classes are balanced better.

While I understand the reasoning behind it doesn

[Nathaniel Chapman]

I think a good route to go for games that are not trying to be super realistic would be to eliminate ammo entirely as something the player manages, and instead give the player special skills or abilities with guns that are on cooldown or consume from some resource pool. I think that has advantages in that 1) it avoids forcing ammo using characters into spending inventory space on ammo when other characters do not and 2) it makes game balance more unified, which tends to mean classes are balanced better.

This sounds like the design direction Bioware took for Dragon Age. To be honest, I thought you may have come up with more interesting ideas but we know it works, at least.

 

I'd like to say that this is a "game design theory" discussion at this point. Don't take what I've said in the thread as anything more than an indication of my inclinations when it comes to epic fantasy RPG design. None of this is DS3 specific information.

 

Mostly I just find the discussion of ammo actually pretty interesting because I think it's something that is such a core part of people's experience with RPGs even though it's something that's glossed over frequently in discussions of fantasy RPG systems.