Obsidian making Dungeon Siege III

[Amentep]

I may be lacking in taste, but I've enjoyed playing all of Obsidian's games (with the exception of MotB which has a feeding mechanic that I hate in games and SoZ which my computer died while playing). So for me their gameplay has worked.

 

Balance? I dunno if the games are properly balanced, but then I don't tend to spend a lot of time trying to find exploits or "the best character build" and things like that. I sorta pick a few skills I want to use and roll with it. Polish? I dunno how to quantify that in any meaningful way other than saying the non-gameplay elements have never made me think "if only..."

Yeah, the gameplay "works". It's not so bad it's enough to make you uninstall the game, but just compare with other games. That was my point -- a DS sequel, if true to the spirit of the previous installments, should be about having fun killing hordes of monsters with friends first, telling a story and making the player involved with the characters second. This isn't really OE's specialty.

 

As for balance... what's there to say? You don't need to be a min/maxer or be actively trying to break the game; just take Force Storm/Vampiric Feast/Chain Shot, and win-button your way to victory. Don't bother with anything else, chances are it's underpowered and/or not working as intended.

 

Polish is quantified exactly by the amount of bugs present at release. Err... yeah.

 

I dunno, to me I take the game I'm playing on the terms its giving me rather than compare it to every other game I've played. While there's a certain amount of logical correlation to be made between ones enjoyment of game A or game B, if I end up liking game A more it doesn't negate the enjoyment I had when playing game B. That I enjoyed the hack & slash of DS1 (the one time I played it) won't make me upset if DS3 has a different approach to the game. Provided the information I have beforehand let me figure I'll like DS3 on whatever terms it establishes for itself, then I'll be fine with trying to enjoy DS3 for what it is, not for what DS1 was.

 

As for balance, again I choose to skills I want to use. If I find that Force Storm is making things too easy, I stop using Force Storm. But again I choose to play the game the way I want, so as I mentioned I have a hard time seeing balance issues as I'm not actively looking for a win button skill.

 

As for bugs...I've never found any of the Obsidan games to have bugs that stopped me from playing the games (I understand the PC Alpha Protocol peeps are finding that to be the case, but I'm not playing it on PC so can't give a personal reaction to that. I can say that I've not experienced anything like the Inventory bug in Arcanum that ate plot related items 3/4 of the way through the game or the weird save game problems I had with Divinity II that would cause me to have to reboot to load a save and that would sometimes mix save games so Character A would load where character B had been at when I saved game B).

Edited June 8, 2010 by Amentep

[Thorton_AP]

The fact that it's going to be on consoles makes me sad. Can we expect a dumbed down interface Obsidian?

 

Considering that some consider Alpha Protocol's PC version a disaster port, I'd say this is sadly a very likely possibility.

 

EDIT : Seems that my impressions that Dungeon Siege III is a project to stay afloat have at least some ground in reality.

 

 

There are going to be haters everywhere. The only issue with the PC version IMO is the hacking minigame, which I am still very good at and rarely fail.

[WorstUsernameEver]

The fact that it's going to be on consoles makes me sad. Can we expect a dumbed down interface Obsidian?

 

Considering that some consider Alpha Protocol's PC version a disaster port, I'd say this is sadly a very likely possibility.

 

EDIT : Seems that my impressions that Dungeon Siege III is a project to stay afloat have at least some ground in reality.

 

 

There are going to be haters everywhere. The only issue with the PC version IMO is the hacking minigame, which I am still very good at and rarely fail.

 

Mind you, we'll have to wait for reliable data before jumping to conclusion.

Anyway, project to stay afloat or not, I hope Obsidian's commitment to deliver an high quality experience will be higher than ever.

I must admit that, while I remain VERY skeptical, I also am VERY curious, much more than what I initially anticipated after reading the announcement.

[Freeid]

I must admit I am surprised at the amount of hostility, I LOVED the multiplayer on DS1, I only played Diablo 2 longer. The map was huge and varied (I did hate the goblins though as they seemed out of context to the setting) the loot tables were large and randomised, in fact if it was not for the rampant cheating that went on, I would have played it a great deal longer.

 

I hope being on xbox live will at least keep the cheating to a relative minimum, sorry but I for one AM looking forward to this game, I will agree though that the storyline needed a great deal of work (I have every confidence Obsidian will take care of this) but as multiplayer was my favourite aspect I did not really mind.

 

 

Roll on Dungeon Siege 3

[Jackalmonkey]

A single-character Icewind Dale in a non-D&D fantasy setting with co-op.

 

Not bad at all.

Especially in light of Icewind Dale, I can see how this might play to the studio's strengths.

 

And "generic fantasy," insofar as it's decried here (and rightly so), is a far sight better than contending with yet another D&D franchise, which tends to be little more than institutionally claustrophobic and canonical "generic fantasy."

[Starwars]

For the game, I hope this holds true:

 

Question:

 

I've heard rumors that you are tired of "medieval fantasy" RPGs. I'm pretty sure that I know what you mean, but I'm curious about your reasons. Also, what exactly did you do to separate Mask of the Betrayer from such games?

 

George Ziets:

 

I think this depends on whether I

[Hassat Hunter]

Yup, because I had forgotten the somewhat more extensive backstory that is in books scattered around the game, I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. DS was a Diablo clone, plain and simple.

I wasn't really talking about the plot (which was flinter-thin), but about the setting. DS's monsters and areas where generally far from tolkienish "generic fantasy" like Oblivion or Dungeon Siege 2 used. Returning to that would make me happy.

in fact if it was not for the rampant cheating that went on, I would have played it a great deal longer.

Yeah. Sadly enough that seems to be pretty much a tangent amongst DS fans, as I heard it plenty of times all over the place.

 

As for the polish question. I much rather have a gem in the rough (Alpha Protocol, Vampire: Bloodlines) than a very well polished game that wouldn't interest me as much.

[213374U]

I dunno, to me I take the game I'm playing on the terms its giving me rather than compare it to every other game I've played. While there's a certain amount of logical correlation to be made between ones enjoyment of game A or game B, if I end up liking game A more it doesn't negate the enjoyment I had when playing game B. That I enjoyed the hack & slash of DS1 (the one time I played it) won't make me upset if DS3 has a different approach to the game. Provided the information I have beforehand let me figure I'll like DS3 on whatever terms it establishes for itself, then I'll be fine with trying to enjoy DS3 for what it is, not for what DS1 was.

 

As for balance, again I choose to skills I want to use. If I find that Force Storm is making things too easy, I stop using Force Storm. But again I choose to play the game the way I want, so as I mentioned I have a hard time seeing balance issues as I'm not actively looking for a win button skill.

 

As for bugs...I've never found any of the Obsidan games to have bugs that stopped me from playing the games (I understand the PC Alpha Protocol peeps are finding that to be the case, but I'm not playing it on PC so can't give a personal reaction to that. I can say that I've not experienced anything like the Inventory bug in Arcanum that ate plot related items 3/4 of the way through the game or the weird save game problems I had with Divinity II that would cause me to have to reboot to load a save and that would sometimes mix save games so Character A would load where character B had been at when I saved game B).

1) I'm not saying Obs games aren't enjoyable, or that they can't do what they do best with a DS license. Rather, I'm thinking that unless something changes (either design concept or gameplay quality), Obs will be, I think, placing an emphasis on what isn't their strength. Again, I have not played AP, so I may be completely off the mark here.

 

2) Just because you dodge skills that break balance doesn't mean they aren't there. The player shouldn't have to metagame his way around game design flaws. It's not just Vampiric Feast or Force Storm, it's the fact that a Weapon Master is useless unless he picks [Favored Weapon (Falchion)], in which case he's pretty much unstoppable, the circumstance that there is way too much XP to go around and after level 21 you can sit back and watch your Jedi Weaponmaster auto-murder everyone, etc. Claiming that this isn't an issue because the player could perhaps avoid it by not using things that were obviously meant to be used is like closing your eyes in broad daylight and pretending it's midnight to avoid a sunburn. Further, I don't remember these games having a respec feature, so those are effectively wasted skill points, possibly gimping your build if you make a conscious effort not to (ab)use the win button.

 

3) Bugs... lucky you. You might not have found them, but they were there, trust me. Or, don't. Just head to the Tech Support forums here and take a look.

Edited June 8, 2010 by 213374U

[Amentep]

Didn't say there weren't bugs - just acknowledging I haven't found them (yet).

 

Again I never noticed that Force storm was overpowered (I'm pretty sure I used it, but I used a lot of skills and powers). Why would the Weapon Master be useless unless he picks Favored Weapon (Falchion)? Or by useless do you mean "not optimized to be the most effective he can be" ie gamebreakingly unstoppable.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Amentep

[213374U]

The WM was broken in MotB because it's a prestige class with very stringent requirements that is centered around dealing criticals to mobs. It's a one-trick pony. Take that away, and the character is a fighter with some pretty odd feat choices. A very, very large proportion of the enemies in MotB are undead and therefore immune to criticals, unless you hit them with a certain falchion... which in turn makes the WM insanely powerful given his high BAB and the fact that those mobs aren't supposed to be taking 3x damage from criticals. From zero to hero in one feat.

Edited June 8, 2010 by 213374U

[Amentep]

Hmmm, see I'd never in a million years think of something like that.

 

If I'd done a weaponmaster it'd have been because I wanted to super-specialize in a weapon (in fact I think I had a weapon master with halberds)

[Slowtrain]

Hmmm, see I'd never in a million years think of something like that.

 

 

I'd argue that neither you nor I nor any gamer SHOULD have to think like that. It's the job of the devs and QA people to think like that and make sure that useless or overpowered elements are kept out of the game.

[Hassat Hunter]

Force Lightning was a leftover from KOTOR1, so... BioWare.

Of course there it was pretty much endgame, so I guess we can blame OE for not tweaking it to be a proper mid-game power as it is in KOTOR2.

 

Even without FL you can get insanely unstoppable though, with a proper lightsaber build.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

So does this mean a game called Dungeon Siege 3, perhaps the most generic and ridiculous name for a game ever created, will have a smart and well written plot? Because that would be awkward.

[Amentep]

Hmmm, see I'd never in a million years think of something like that.

 

 

I'd argue that neither you nor I nor any gamer SHOULD have to think like that. It's the job of the devs and QA people to think like that and make sure that useless or overpowered elements are kept out of the game.

 

I dunno, given that it seems to be a condition of a particular prestige class (out of several) and a specific weapon (out of hundreds), I'd say something like that would be easy to miss and very unlikely for any player to come across without metagaming.

[Amentep]

Force Lightning was a leftover from KOTOR1, so... BioWare.

Of course there it was pretty much endgame, so I guess we can blame OE for not tweaking it to be a proper mid-game power as it is in KOTOR2.

 

Even without FL you can get insanely unstoppable though, with a proper lightsaber build.

 

Spamming Force Wave also got me through all of KotOR and most of TSL.

[Slowtrain]

I dunno, given that it seems to be a condition of a particular prestige class (out of several) and a specific weapon (out of hundreds), I'd say something like that would be easy to miss and very unlikely for any player to come across without metagaming.

 

 

Sure. Devs are only human and so forth. I'm just pointing out that game balance is a big part of their job and when something unbalanced, either on the weak side or strong side, ends up in a game, it's prefectly valid to point it out as a developer failure. That failure obviously being of greater or lesser import depending upon the significance of the imbalance.

 

The complexity of possibilites in game mechanics is one of the reasons I am a big believer in less is more in games: less skills, less weapons; less classes etc. Just make sure that each one that is included is significant, unique, and functional.

[Gromnir]

Force Lightning was a leftover from KOTOR1, so... BioWare.

 

oh, so obsidian cannot change balance? bio created the infinity engine, but when black isle got their hands on the engine they made loads o' changes. for example, ranged weapons were considered overpowered in bg, so the iwd developers made adjustments to ranged weapons. force lighting and force wave were bio creations... at least as far as their in-game numbers were concerned. is not lucas who determined damages and costs and mechanics of kotor powers, so am not seeing why obsidian couldn't have played with the balance if they saw a balance problem. pass the buck to bio is myopic at best.

 

now something like the d&d weapon master is actually a bit different as the prestige class itself is busted (as so many d&d prestige classes were.) you don't gotta be some kinda d&d super nerd to see that a weapon master with high crit range/damage weapons is gonna be more effective than a character who specializes in clubs. 'course obsidian didn't have a great track record getting wotc to make adjustments to their RULEZ. am finding it difficult to imagine that wotc would allow obsidian to rewrite their work... particularly in light o' the monte cook ranger snaffu.

 

here is the real question: why?

 

too general? ok then, why ds? what is it 'bout ds that a developer would genuine wanna build 'pon? is it the ds setting and ds lore that makes for a great foundation? fo had an intriguing setting, and forgotten realms games gots instant fan recognition and appeal. am understanding why a developer/publisher would find fr and fo settings to be attractive. is the ds game mechanics timeless or groundbreaking? how so? when discussing an obsidian game in development has anybody evar said, "you should implement that feature that gas powered utilized in Dungeon Siege." has anybody evar pointed to ds magic system or combat mechanics as a benchmark? so, why? why ds? am seeing why fergie, particularly in light of economic realities and the recent issues regarding aliens and ap, might choose low risk projects, and titles with numbers after names typically is lower risk. sadly, other than the obvious risk management concerns, we cannot see a reason for wanting to be a part o' a ds project.

 

after fo2 were released, many black isle developers were chomping at the bit to make a fo3. sadly, interplay financial problems led to the failure o' a black isle fo3. by the time fergie eventually got around to starting fo3, it were already too late for black isle. so, am understanding why obsidian would wanna be involved in a fo project. but ds? why ds? other than name recognition (double-edged sword,) how does ds benefit obsidian... as 'posed to an original IP?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[WorstUsernameEver]

how does ds benefit obsidian... as 'posed to an original IP?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I see it this way : GPG was searching for someone to do a sequel while they do another project.

Squenix was already decided as a publisher.

Obsidian saw the possibility of having a strong franchise (but with a decent amount of freedom), and at the same time open some doors at Square Enix (who showed interest in the western rpg market), so they went for it.

Also, an original IP may or may not find a publisher that gives it a decent budget, as far as I understand (very little actually).

I said again and again and again that, if Obsidian doesn't change the game formula, here we have a recipe for disaster, so don't take it for me being super positive for the game, but I can understand Obsidian's point of view.

Now, if they had a stronger track record (meaning a better reputation when it comes to management) and were in a better financial position, they'd have probably gone with a totally original IP, or at least, so I guess.

[Monte Carlo]

Let's face it, commercially and critically Obz picking up franchises as diverse as Fallout and Dungeon Siege can't be a bad thing. Talk about a man for all seasons.

[Gromnir]

how does ds benefit obsidian... as 'posed to an original IP?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I see it this way : GPG was searching for someone to do a sequel while they do another project.

Squenix was already decided as a publisher.

Obsidian saw the possibility of having a strong franchise (but with a decent amount of freedom), and at the same time open some doors at Square Enix (who showed interest in the western rpg market), so they went for it.

Also, an original IP may or may not find a publisher that gives it a decent budget, as far as I understand (very little actually).

I said again and again and again that, if Obsidian doesn't change the game formula, here we have a recipe for disaster, so don't take it for me being super positive for the game, but I can understand Obsidian's point of view.

Now, if they had a stronger track record (meaning a better reputation when it comes to management) and were in a better financial position, they'd have probably gone with a totally original IP, or at least, so I guess.

 

had not considered square enix angle. am not certain how substantial a factor that is.

 

*shrug*

 

in any event, it seems we is in agreement that the appeal o' this project is all 'bout "risk management," which is good for fergie, but is hardly the kinda thing for fans to get excited. "their bottom line is safe. huzzah."

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 8, 2010 by Gromnir

[WorstUsernameEver]

had not considered square enix angle. am not certain how substantial a factor that is.

 

I don't know how substantial that is, it's, after all, just a guess.

But considering that Troika tanked because they weren't able to negotiate a deal with a publisher, keeping all doors open seems a good move from my point of view (and probably Feargus' too).

[Amentep]

in any event, it seems we is in agreement that the appeal o' this project is all 'bout "risk management," which is good for fergie, but is hardly the kinda thing for fans to get excited. "their bottom line is safe. huzzah."

 

I'm a little excited. I might be an outlier though and my excitement/non-excitement levels may wax/wane as information is revealed about the game.

[Gromnir]

in any event, it seems we is in agreement that the appeal o' this project is all 'bout "risk management," which is good for fergie, but is hardly the kinda thing for fans to get excited. "their bottom line is safe. huzzah."

 

I'm a little excited. I might be an outlier though and my excitement/non-excitement levels may wax/wane as information is revealed about the game.

 

are you excited 'cause it is a ds game or because it is an obsidian game? our query were: why ds?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hassat Hunter]

oh, so obsidian cannot change balance?

Next time read my entire post, since I mentioned that in the very next line...