Good Console RPG's lacking?

[IwantbetterRPGS]

Without a doubt the most epic and amazing RPG was Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, along with its expansion, Throne of Bhaal. Since playing that game all the way thru, (more times than I can remember), every RPG I have ever played since has ranked in comparison to that one totally awesome game, (either vastly inferior, good-but-not-quite-as-good, or, such as in the case of KOTOR II, on par), and NOT ONE has ever been able to significantly surpass it. (This is not so much a scathing criticism of other games as it is a rave review of how amazing BGII is, as well as pointing out the bar that game set for the rest of RPG's)

 

After being thoroughly disappointed by so-called "RPG's" like Oblivion and Fallout 3 (let's be honest and call them what the really are: FPS in RPG clothing), and not finding anything remotely like BGII or KOTOR II on any of the consoles (then again, I have never played Mass Effect and probably won't be able to for a LONG time, seeing as I dont have an Xbox360 or a powerful enough PC), it feels like there is a serious lack of genuine RPG's like the kind we used to grow up with. Instead of amazing and structured game mechanics and immersive stories and characters, its all about graphics graphics graphics.

 

Obsidian: Here is my two cents from someone who has always been a devout fan of Black Isle and OE games: I think you should make MORE games like Baldur's Gate II and KOTOR II. It seems that given the expansive universes provided by BOTH titles, there shouldn't be any limit to the number of different games you could create utilizing their respective universes as the story backdrop. (like was done with the console versions of Baldur's Gate, which where fun in their own right, but lacked many of the things that made BGII and KOTOR II the best games ever)

 

What I would really like to see is a game that focuses less on how graphically intense it is, and is more centered around structured and logical character creation and leveling (like the kind found in 3rd Edition D&D rules), amazing and believable characters and epic storyline (like the kind found in BG II and KOTOR II), artistic design, and REAL RPG's elements like you see in the good old fashioned pen-and-paper traditions of D&D. (multiple solutions to a quest or problem -the more the better-, rewards and incentives based on alignment and choices, XP rewards determined by challenge, and immersive non-linear storytelling)

 

BG II and IWD II were amazing in part because they brought D&D to life, and took away the tedium that came with being a D&D Dungeon Master and rolling different sided die. (the game did those for us). They allowed someone else to write an amazing story for us, while we got to sit back and enjoy the ride. KOTOR II took the best those games had to offer and took them one step further, because it brought the player even closer to their character, and made the story even more immersive. players could now watch their character do more detailed and more unique actions like when he attacked or cast a spell; dialogue options where more diverse and had more of an impact on what become of your allies, not to mention players could feel "more in control" of their character and how the story developed. Alignment was no longer and arbitrary role-playing decision, but had a direct impact on what your character was allowed to do and how he/she could interact with the universe round them.

 

Now it seems like the gaming industry is moving more and more away from traditional RPG mechanics and closer to more "reflex-based" mechanics. (Some of us LIKE turn-based games, and you guys always did an amazing job of providing to both audiences I think). What was once the traditional RPG is slowly mutating into the traditional FPS/hack and slash, without even trying to adequately merge the two like in Borderlands or Diablo.

 

While I recognize that next-gen consoles let video game companies make all kinds of cool explosions and whatnot, it seems to me a better use of these consoles processing power would be to create better structured gameplay, a greater variety of quest solutions, greater diversity of NPC's, NPC and PC growth, and other details that would give such a game a more immersive and cinematic feel. Hardcore RPG fans want to immerse themselves into a story. We want to be guided along a plot that we help create thru individual choices in the game, both thru dialogue and actions. We want to be able to deviate from the script, as it were, from time to time in order to explore this immense world we have been sucked into. We want to feel the joys and sorrows of associating with the various characters in the story. And most importantly, we want to be visibly rewarded at some point in the game for the choices we make. We want to see and feel the consequences of choosing A over B (or vice versa). We want to know that consequence Q that happens 2 ours latter in the game was the result of seemingly trivial-at-the-time decision D. We want those consequences to impact our character via XP, items, or story development. We want to be able to use our own real-life creative problem solving skills, combined with our character's abilities, to come up with innovative solutions to problems presented in the game, and then be visibly rewarded for it (sneaking away from the dragon or beguiling it should reward me as much as killing it would have, even if the rewards may be different).

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, can you make another D&D game that has the story and character development of BG II, the massiveness and scope of KOTOR II, with the character design ability of IWD II or NWN II? And as if that weren't demanding enough, could you please take all of those elements that made each of those games the best of its class, and perfect them, hone them, and make them better? I know that I am not asking for an easy thing, but you would be doing gamer's around the world a huge service, by creating another epic game for the next-gen consoles on par with BGII, while at the same time once again setting the standard for what a good RPG really is.

 

Thanks

[WorstUsernameEver]

I'll come back with a longer and more (much more) detailed answer lately, but for now, the only thing I can tell you is that unfortunately we're most probably not going to get another D&D title for at least a couple of years, thanks to legal shenanigans.

[Raithe]

I'll come back with a longer and more (much more) detailed answer lately, but for now, the only thing I can tell you is that unfortunately we're most probably not going to get another D&D title for at least a couple of years, thanks to legal shenanigans.

 

That and the new version of D&D totally sucks (although the art is rather damn good).

 

Also, if you give it a squinty eyed view, it almost looks like they've made it similar to WoW for pen n paper time.. so I guess that would both make it simpler, and cause some issues if they try to put it back into a computer game these days....

[HoonDing]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, can you make another D&D game that has the story and character development of BG II, the massiveness and scope of KOTOR II, with the character design ability of IWD II or NWN II? And as if that weren't demanding enough, could you please take all of those elements that made each of those games the best of its class, and perfect them, hone them, and make them better? I know that I am not asking for an easy thing, but you would be doing gamer's around the world a huge service, by creating another epic game for the next-gen consoles on par with BGII, while at the same time once again setting the standard for what a good RPG really is.

Hmm... it might happen if BioWare for some reason would outsource Dragon Age 2 to Obsidian...

[Morgoth]

Forgotten Realms > Dragon Age world

 

Though the D&D ruleset mostly sucks.

[HoonDing]

No more Forgotten Realms. There's plenty of D&D... more Dark Sun, Eberron or even Dragonlance.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Dragonlance.

 

I hope not actually. Worst fantasy setting I've had the 'pleasure' of reading.

It's pretty much everything that's wrong in the fantasy genre put into an incredibly generic package.

Dragon Age's setting trumps it pretty easily.

[HoonDing]

^The books are not worse than any FR books, and the quality varies greatly from book to book as well.

 

Just like FR, it's a great setting for role-playing. The Krynn trilogy were the best fantasy RPGs out there before Baldur's Gate popped up.

 

But I think you can't get more generic than Dragon Age.

Edited June 1, 2010 by virumor

[WorstUsernameEver]

^The books are not worse than any FR books, and the quality varies greatly from book to book as well.

 

Just like FR, it's a great setting for role-playing.

 

But I think you can't get more generic than Dragon Age.

 

I avoided the FR books like a plague, and I'm glad I did.

Got stuck with Dragonlance because one of my friends was bat**** insane about them, so I HAD to read them to know what they were about.

Came out less than impressed.

As for Dragon Age's setting, none of the concept behind it is particularly original or interesting by itself, but I think it's better than the sum of its parts.

I'd argue that taking out the darkspawn and the Grey Wardens would make the setting MUCH more interesting.

[Orogun01]

These things are cyclical, after the Action RPG market subsides there will be a place for old school. Although OP should remember that this has always been sort of an underground thing, BW may have broken into mainstream with the genre most of it remains behind.

 

@WorstUsernameEver: I agree wholeheartedly with you, DA:O would had done much better without the darkspawn and Grey Wardens. Just a big political theme with lots of grey areas.

[Syraxis]

@WorstUsernameEver: I agree wholeheartedly with you, DA:O would had done much better without the darkspawn and Grey Wardens. Just a big political theme with lots of grey areas.

 

I think a huge improvement for DA2 (or any BIO game for that matter) would be to lessen the political centered plot lines altogether.

[Hurlshort]

I liked BG2, but I wouldn't say I loved it. I actually prefer the story aspects of the recent Mass Effect series. The choice and consequence stuff there is incredible.

[Mera]

Without a doubt the most epic and amazing RPG was Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn

This is where I stopped reading.

[Gorth]

Without a doubt the most epic and amazing RPG was Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn

This is where I stopped reading.

Yeah, he obviously never played Mike Singletons "Lords of Midnight"

 

As for Dragon Age's setting, none of the concept behind it is particularly original or interesting by itself, but I think it's better than the sum of its parts.

We'll have to disagree on this one. I found DA's setting and factions to be its weakest link. At least ME2 had The Force, Jedi... oh wait

 

Seriously though, Ferelden, Wardens, The chantry, Dark Spawn etc. was as uninspired as could possibly be. Only slight redemption came from a few interesting, atypical NPC's like Sten, Dog and Zevran.

 

If developers want to base it on real world cultures, why not pick something more "distinct", like Celts, Picts, Sumerian or whatever.

 

Edit: By comparison, a game like ME2 used humor to great effect. Salarians enable you to overlook possible shortcomings because you are too busy giggling while playing.

[Orogun01]

If developers want to base it on real world cultures, why not pick something more "distinct", like Celts, Picts, Sumerian or whatever.

Because it lacks the mainstream appeal. Basically they want the uninformed and semi-intelligent to know that this is an analogy and engage on it.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Promised the big post so here it comes.

 

 

Without a doubt the most epic and amazing RPG was Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, along with its expansion, Throne of Bhaal. Since playing that game all the way thru, (more times than I can remember), every RPG I have ever played since has ranked in comparison to that one totally awesome game, (either vastly inferior, good-but-not-quite-as-good, or, such as in the case of KOTOR II, on par), and NOT ONE has ever been able to significantly surpass it. (This is not so much a scathing criticism of other games as it is a rave review of how amazing BGII is, as well as pointing out the bar that game set for the rest of RPG's)

 

Let's just say that you're starting with a very specific indication of where your tastes lie, which is not bad, but many may disagree with you, and no, Baldur's Gate II is not 'without a doubt' the most epic and amazing RPG, for various reasons I'm not going to cite now. Let's just accept that as your opinion and go on.

 

After being thoroughly disappointed by so-called "RPG's" like Oblivion and Fallout 3 (let's be honest and call them what the really are: FPS in RPG clothing), and not finding anything remotely like BGII or KOTOR II on any of the consoles (then again, I have never played Mass Effect and probably won't be able to for a LONG time, seeing as I dont have an Xbox360 or a powerful enough PC), it feels like there is a serious lack of genuine RPG's like the kind we used to grow up with. Instead of amazing and structured game mechanics and immersive stories and characters, its all about graphics graphics graphics.

 

Fallout 3 and Oblivion are both weak on the rpg mechanics, yeah, but that doesn't disqualify from the genre. Of course, many on these boards will agree with you, but I don't think they're FPS at all, they only share superficial similarities.

Try playing a real first person shooter, you'll notice that the experience is remarkably different.

Granted, I understand what you're trying to convey here.. the market lacks games similar to Baldur's Gate II and Kotor II, two games that favored character's skills instead of player skills, were generally more detached experiences, and focused on telling strong stories (something that both Oblivion and Fallout 3 definitely lack).

 

Obsidian: Here is my two cents from someone who has always been a devout fan of Black Isle and OE games: I think you should make MORE games like Baldur's Gate II and KOTOR II. It seems that given the expansive universes provided by BOTH titles, there shouldn't be any limit to the number of different games you could create utilizing their respective universes as the story backdrop. (like was done with the console versions of Baldur's Gate, which where fun in their own right, but lacked many of the things that made BGII and KOTOR II the best games ever)

 

Here I think naivety comes into play, I believe. The idea that Obsidian, as a developer, strayed from those license as a conscious choice because they didn't let them concentrate on graphics or .. whatever.

Nope, licensing is something based on more pragmatic things, and unfortunately the D&D license probably won't see games for a lot of times, and LucasArts for now seems more interested with Bioware's work on The Old Republic (their Star Wars-based, Old Republic-era MMORPG) than with the possibility of making a new Star Wars rpg (KOTOR III?) with Obsidian. Fair from a business point of view, considering that KOTOR II sold less than its prequel, and was generally (though far from universally) criticized for its very different writing and storyline, not to mention the fact that the ending didn't make much sense (we already know the story behind this so I'll skip it) and was a pretty buggy game.

 

What I would really like to see is a game that focuses less on how graphically intense it is, and is more centered around structured and logical character creation and leveling (like the kind found in 3rd Edition D&D rules), amazing and believable characters and epic storyline (like the kind found in BG II and KOTOR II), artistic design, and REAL RPG's elements like you see in the good old fashioned pen-and-paper traditions of D&D. (multiple solutions to a quest or problem -the more the better-, rewards and incentives based on alignment and choices, XP rewards determined by challenge, and immersive non-linear storytelling)

 

BG II and IWD II were amazing in part because they brought D&D to life, and took away the tedium that came with being a D&D Dungeon Master and rolling different sided die. (the game did those for us). They allowed someone else to write an amazing story for us, while we got to sit back and enjoy the ride. KOTOR II took the best those games had to offer and took them one step further, because it brought the player even closer to their character, and made the story even more immersive. players could now watch their character do more detailed and more unique actions like when he attacked or cast a spell; dialogue options where more diverse and had more of an impact on what become of your allies, not to mention players could feel "more in control" of their character and how the story developed. Alignment was no longer and arbitrary role-playing decision, but had a direct impact on what your character was allowed to do and how he/she could interact with the universe round them.

 

Here you're basically stating your preferences for an RPG design. Fine, I'm certainly not going to argue with what you like, especially since I agree with most of these things (and I'm a bit tired, so I don't really have the strength to discuss this too ).

 

Now it seems like the gaming industry is moving more and more away from traditional RPG mechanics and closer to more "reflex-based" mechanics. (Some of us LIKE turn-based games, and you guys always did an amazing job of providing to both audiences I think). What was once the traditional RPG is slowly mutating into the traditional FPS/hack and slash, without even trying to adequately merge the two like in Borderlands or Diablo.

 

While I recognize that next-gen consoles let video game companies make all kinds of cool explosions and whatnot, it seems to me a better use of these consoles processing power would be to create better structured gameplay, a greater variety of quest solutions, greater diversity of NPC's, NPC and PC growth, and other details that would give such a game a more immersive and cinematic feel. Hardcore RPG fans want to immerse themselves into a story. We want to be guided along a plot that we help create thru individual choices in the game, both thru dialogue and actions. We want to be able to deviate from the script, as it were, from time to time in order to explore this immense world we have been sucked into. We want to feel the joys and sorrows of associating with the various characters in the story. And most importantly, we want to be visibly rewarded at some point in the game for the choices we make. We want to see and feel the consequences of choosing A over B (or vice versa). We want to know that consequence Q that happens 2 ours latter in the game was the result of seemingly trivial-at-the-time decision D. We want those consequences to impact our character via XP, items, or story development. We want to be able to use our own real-life creative problem solving skills, combined with our character's abilities, to come up with innovative solutions to problems presented in the game, and then be visibly rewarded for it (sneaking away from the dragon or beguiling it should reward me as much as killing it would have, even if the rewards may be different).

 

Again, seems to me like you basically don't like action-rpgs, but just a closer look to the market (especially the european one) would show you that FPS/RPG hybrid are still a minority. It's true that there are more 'twitchy' games and less RtwP/turn-based ones, though, but that's about the only thing I can agree there.

Also, it seems to me like you're ignoring a gold mine for a supposedly 'hardcore' rpg player : indies.

Games like Eschalon, Age of Decadence (.... 2012, that's the date it will come out, I just feel it ), Geneforge, Avernum etc. all provide turn-based/detached combat, an involved character generation process, usually interesting plots, sometimes choices and consequences (as far as I know, Eschalon and Avernum don't provide much choices, but then again, let's be honest, Baldur's Gate II was largely a linear game too). It's true that they don't have the production values of an AAA game, but let's be honest, you've complained that your computer isn't capable of running Mass Effect, so that's not what you're searching for, right?

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, can you make another D&D game that has the story and character development of BG II, the massiveness and scope of KOTOR II, with the character design ability of IWD II or NWN II? And as if that weren't demanding enough, could you please take all of those elements that made each of those games the best of its class, and perfect them, hone them, and make them better? I know that I am not asking for an easy thing, but you would be doing gamer's around the world a huge service, by creating another epic game for the next-gen consoles on par with BGII, while at the same time once again setting the standard for what a good RPG really is.

 

Thanks

 

Just to reassure you, I think that Obsidian WOULD like to make an rpg that tops those games. It's just that it's not easy, and they also have to take care of the other segments of the market. Also, consider that porting this type of experience on a console it's not that easy, you have to inevitably deal with interface problems, hardware limitations etc.

Look at the console port of Dragon Age if you want to have an idea of how clunky an interface of a 3d AAA game with a philosophy quite similar to Baldur's Gate II and Knights of the Old Republic II can turn.

By the way, if you haven't play the game, try it. I'd say that, with all its faults, it's an enormously fun experience that definitely deserves a chance, and also what's closest to what you consider 'the most epic rpg'.

 

As for Dragon Age's setting, none of the concept behind it is particularly original or interesting by itself, but I think it's better than the sum of its parts.

We'll have to disagree on this one. I found DA's setting and factions to be its weakest link. At least ME2 had The Force, Jedi... oh wait

 

Seriously though, Ferelden, Wardens, The chantry, Dark Spawn etc. was as uninspired as could possibly be. Only slight redemption came from a few interesting, atypical NPC's like Sten, Dog and Zevran.

 

If developers want to base it on real world cultures, why not pick something more "distinct", like Celts, Picts, Sumerian or whatever.

 

As I've already said, Grey Wardens and Darkspawn are the weakest part of the setting, but considering how Bioware pulled even the British-lookalikes of Ferelden, I consider myself satisfied.

You also forgot to cite the dwarves culture, the depiction of the elves, while not particularly original (it's practically taken from The Witcher), it's better than your usual 'high-and-mighty old-and-wise elf', Sten's people have an interesting culture, and the package comes together rather seamlessly, something that the Forgotten Realms' writer were definitely never capable of pulling off well imho.

Then again, I would have preferred another type of setting, not so afraid of pushing Bioware in a different direction.. problem is, it's evident that it's not what the mainstream wants (or Bioware's fan, for that matter).

Bioware have catered to the broad audience, and their fans in particular, since practically the beginning of their career as RPG devs, so it doesn't come as a surprise that they tried to go for a 'detailed but ultimately unoriginal' world.

There are still a lot of little touches that imho make Ferelden recognizable, which is more than what I expected.

 

P.S. : I'm pretty sure I made a lot of grammar mistakes in the post since it became so long, feel free to point them out to me so I can edit them out and pretend I've never made them!

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's up to the publishers which games get made, not up to Obsidian.

[IwantbetterRPGS]

I'll come back with a longer and more (much more) detailed answer lately, but for now, the only thing I can tell you is that unfortunately we're most probably not going to get another D&D title for at least a couple of years, thanks to legal shenanigans.

 

That and the new version of D&D totally sucks (although the art is rather damn good).

 

Also, if you give it a squinty eyed view, it almost looks like they've made it similar to WoW for pen n paper time.. so I guess that would both make it simpler, and cause some issues if they try to put it back into a computer game these days....

 

 

I heard 4th edition was like D&D for dummies, and totally destroyed the purpose of different classes/skill sets.

 

I want games that use the 3rd or even 3.5 edition rules. And I would love to see them branch out among the different D&D settings. I loved FR, but then I played TOEE and even an Eberron-based gamed, and thought "Hey! these other places have serious potential!"

 

It just would be nice for ONCE to see an RPG that is true to the traditions of old-school D&D RPG (and not a hack-n-slash or an FPS disguised as an RPG *cough cough* OBLIVION *cough cough*), and that fleshes out detailed stories and character development as well as character creation and leveling.

Edited June 1, 2010 by IwantbetterRPGS

[IwantbetterRPGS]

Promised the big post so here it comes.

 

 

Without a doubt the most epic and amazing RPG was Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, along with its expansion, Throne of Bhaal. Since playing that game all the way thru, (more times than I can remember), every RPG I have ever played since has ranked in comparison to that one totally awesome game, (either vastly inferior, good-but-not-quite-as-good, or, such as in the case of KOTOR II, on par), and NOT ONE has ever been able to significantly surpass it. (This is not so much a scathing criticism of other games as it is a rave review of how amazing BGII is, as well as pointing out the bar that game set for the rest of RPG's)

 

Let's just say that you're starting with a very specific indication of where your tastes lie, which is not bad, but many may disagree with you, and no, Baldur's Gate II is not 'without a doubt' the most epic and amazing RPG, for various reasons I'm not going to cite now. Let's just accept that as your opinion and go on.

 

After being thoroughly disappointed by so-called "RPG's" like Oblivion and Fallout 3 (let's be honest and call them what the really are: FPS in RPG clothing), and not finding anything remotely like BGII or KOTOR II on any of the consoles (then again, I have never played Mass Effect and probably won't be able to for a LONG time, seeing as I dont have an Xbox360 or a powerful enough PC), it feels like there is a serious lack of genuine RPG's like the kind we used to grow up with. Instead of amazing and structured game mechanics and immersive stories and characters, its all about graphics graphics graphics.

 

Fallout 3 and Oblivion are both weak on the rpg mechanics, yeah, but that doesn't disqualify from the genre. Of course, many on these boards will agree with you, but I don't think they're FPS at all, they only share superficial similarities.

Try playing a real first person shooter, you'll notice that the experience is remarkably different.

Granted, I understand what you're trying to convey here.. the market lacks games similar to Baldur's Gate II and Kotor II, two games that favored character's skills instead of player skills, were generally more detached experiences, and focused on telling strong stories (something that both Oblivion and Fallout 3 definitely lack).

 

Obsidian: Here is my two cents from someone who has always been a devout fan of Black Isle and OE games: I think you should make MORE games like Baldur's Gate II and KOTOR II. It seems that given the expansive universes provided by BOTH titles, there shouldn't be any limit to the number of different games you could create utilizing their respective universes as the story backdrop. (like was done with the console versions of Baldur's Gate, which where fun in their own right, but lacked many of the things that made BGII and KOTOR II the best games ever)

 

Here I think naivety comes into play, I believe. The idea that Obsidian, as a developer, strayed from those license as a conscious choice because they didn't let them concentrate on graphics or .. whatever.

Nope, licensing is something based on more pragmatic things, and unfortunately the D&D license probably won't see games for a lot of times, and LucasArts for now seems more interested with Bioware's work on The Old Republic (their Star Wars-based, Old Republic-era MMORPG) than with the possibility of making a new Star Wars rpg (KOTOR III?) with Obsidian. Fair from a business point of view, considering that KOTOR II sold less than its prequel, and was generally (though far from universally) criticized for its very different writing and storyline, not to mention the fact that the ending didn't make much sense (we already know the story behind this so I'll skip it) and was a pretty buggy game.

 

What I would really like to see is a game that focuses less on how graphically intense it is, and is more centered around structured and logical character creation and leveling (like the kind found in 3rd Edition D&D rules), amazing and believable characters and epic storyline (like the kind found in BG II and KOTOR II), artistic design, and REAL RPG's elements like you see in the good old fashioned pen-and-paper traditions of D&D. (multiple solutions to a quest or problem -the more the better-, rewards and incentives based on alignment and choices, XP rewards determined by challenge, and immersive non-linear storytelling)

 

BG II and IWD II were amazing in part because they brought D&D to life, and took away the tedium that came with being a D&D Dungeon Master and rolling different sided die. (the game did those for us). They allowed someone else to write an amazing story for us, while we got to sit back and enjoy the ride. KOTOR II took the best those games had to offer and took them one step further, because it brought the player even closer to their character, and made the story even more immersive. players could now watch their character do more detailed and more unique actions like when he attacked or cast a spell; dialogue options where more diverse and had more of an impact on what become of your allies, not to mention players could feel "more in control" of their character and how the story developed. Alignment was no longer and arbitrary role-playing decision, but had a direct impact on what your character was allowed to do and how he/she could interact with the universe round them.

 

Here you're basically stating your preferences for an RPG design. Fine, I'm certainly not going to argue with what you like, especially since I agree with most of these things (and I'm a bit tired, so I don't really have the strength to discuss this too ).

 

Now it seems like the gaming industry is moving more and more away from traditional RPG mechanics and closer to more "reflex-based" mechanics. (Some of us LIKE turn-based games, and you guys always did an amazing job of providing to both audiences I think). What was once the traditional RPG is slowly mutating into the traditional FPS/hack and slash, without even trying to adequately merge the two like in Borderlands or Diablo.

 

While I recognize that next-gen consoles let video game companies make all kinds of cool explosions and whatnot, it seems to me a better use of these consoles processing power would be to create better structured gameplay, a greater variety of quest solutions, greater diversity of NPC's, NPC and PC growth, and other details that would give such a game a more immersive and cinematic feel. Hardcore RPG fans want to immerse themselves into a story. We want to be guided along a plot that we help create thru individual choices in the game, both thru dialogue and actions. We want to be able to deviate from the script, as it were, from time to time in order to explore this immense world we have been sucked into. We want to feel the joys and sorrows of associating with the various characters in the story. And most importantly, we want to be visibly rewarded at some point in the game for the choices we make. We want to see and feel the consequences of choosing A over B (or vice versa). We want to know that consequence Q that happens 2 ours latter in the game was the result of seemingly trivial-at-the-time decision D. We want those consequences to impact our character via XP, items, or story development. We want to be able to use our own real-life creative problem solving skills, combined with our character's abilities, to come up with innovative solutions to problems presented in the game, and then be visibly rewarded for it (sneaking away from the dragon or beguiling it should reward me as much as killing it would have, even if the rewards may be different).

 

Again, seems to me like you basically don't like action-rpgs, but just a closer look to the market (especially the european one) would show you that FPS/RPG hybrid are still a minority. It's true that there are more 'twitchy' games and less RtwP/turn-based ones, though, but that's about the only thing I can agree there.

Also, it seems to me like you're ignoring a gold mine for a supposedly 'hardcore' rpg player : indies.

Games like Eschalon, Age of Decadence (.... 2012, that's the date it will come out, I just feel it ), Geneforge, Avernum etc. all provide turn-based/detached combat, an involved character generation process, usually interesting plots, sometimes choices and consequences (as far as I know, Eschalon and Avernum don't provide much choices, but then again, let's be honest, Baldur's Gate II was largely a linear game too). It's true that they don't have the production values of an AAA game, but let's be honest, you've complained that your computer isn't capable of running Mass Effect, so that's not what you're searching for, right?

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, can you make another D&D game that has the story and character development of BG II, the massiveness and scope of KOTOR II, with the character design ability of IWD II or NWN II? And as if that weren't demanding enough, could you please take all of those elements that made each of those games the best of its class, and perfect them, hone them, and make them better? I know that I am not asking for an easy thing, but you would be doing gamer's around the world a huge service, by creating another epic game for the next-gen consoles on par with BGII, while at the same time once again setting the standard for what a good RPG really is.

 

Thanks

 

Just to reassure you, I think that Obsidian WOULD like to make an rpg that tops those games. It's just that it's not easy, and they also have to take care of the other segments of the market. Also, consider that porting this type of experience on a console it's not that easy, you have to inevitably deal with interface problems, hardware limitations etc.

Look at the console port of Dragon Age if you want to have an idea of how clunky an interface of a 3d AAA game with a philosophy quite similar to Baldur's Gate II and Knights of the Old Republic II can turn.

By the way, if you haven't play the game, try it. I'd say that, with all its faults, it's an enormously fun experience that definitely deserves a chance, and also what's closest to what you consider 'the most epic rpg'.

 

As for Dragon Age's setting, none of the concept behind it is particularly original or interesting by itself, but I think it's better than the sum of its parts.

We'll have to disagree on this one. I found DA's setting and factions to be its weakest link. At least ME2 had The Force, Jedi... oh wait

 

Seriously though, Ferelden, Wardens, The chantry, Dark Spawn etc. was as uninspired as could possibly be. Only slight redemption came from a few interesting, atypical NPC's like Sten, Dog and Zevran.

 

If developers want to base it on real world cultures, why not pick something more "distinct", like Celts, Picts, Sumerian or whatever.

 

As I've already said, Grey Wardens and Darkspawn are the weakest part of the setting, but considering how Bioware pulled even the British-lookalikes of Ferelden, I consider myself satisfied.

You also forgot to cite the dwarves culture, the depiction of the elves, while not particularly original (it's practically taken from The Witcher), it's better than your usual 'high-and-mighty old-and-wise elf', Sten's people have an interesting culture, and the package comes together rather seamlessly, something that the Forgotten Realms' writer were definitely never capable of pulling off well imho.

Then again, I would have preferred another type of setting, not so afraid of pushing Bioware in a different direction.. problem is, it's evident that it's not what the mainstream wants (or Bioware's fan, for that matter).

Bioware have catered to the broad audience, and their fans in particular, since practically the beginning of their career as RPG devs, so it doesn't come as a surprise that they tried to go for a 'detailed but ultimately unoriginal' world.

There are still a lot of little touches that imho make Ferelden recognizable, which is more than what I expected.

 

P.S. : I'm pretty sure I made a lot of grammar mistakes in the post since it became so long, feel free to point them out to me so I can edit them out and pretend I've never made them!

 

 

I you hit the nail on the head, and adequately voiced all the things I had in my head that for whatever reason I didn't put on paper.

 

I agree that BG II, by today's standards at least, most likely could not be considered "the most epic game ever". For me it was for the longest time because for its time I think it revolutionized RPG games, as well as setting a bar what what RPG's should be like. Same with KOTOR II (which I liked way better than the first KOTOR, even tho that was pretty amazing) Sadly, I am not too familiar with similar RPG's out there, or even the ones you mentioned, I imagine in no small part due to a lack of mass-marketing. I have played DA:O, and I liked it a lot, but I didnt really feel like Bioware had much improved or developed the RPG stroytelling mechanism: it felt like a darker, fantasy based version of KOTOR with insane graphics and all the blood and gore I could ask for. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed playing it, but yeah, I dont think it's what I was looking for as far as RPG's go. As you pointed out, I obviously prefer games that focus on character skill and not player skill (with the exception being I want the player's mind and creativity to be what drives your character's use of his/her skills)

 

I'm not saying there aren't good games out there, just a lot of lackluster ones compared to really perception-changing titles. (of course that is I think, the nature of any entertainment industry: some projects you do because you mouths to feed and bills to pay, and I understand that). If I plea to Obsidian, it isnt because I don't think they are doing a good job, but because I know their business history, and I think that if ANYONE is going to give RPG gamers a revolutionary RPG experience like was done with the BG or KOTOR series, it will be Feargus Urquhart, and his team from Black Isle at Obsidian.

 

That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but I I still have hope in their talents and abilities as game designers.

Edited June 1, 2010 by IwantbetterRPGS

[WorstUsernameEver]

I you hit the nail on the head, and adequately voiced all the things I had in my head that for whatever reason I didn't put on paper.

 

I agree that BG II, by today's standards at least, most likely could not be considered "the most epic game ever". For me it was for the longest time because for its time I think it revolutionized RPG games, as well as setting a bar what what RPG's should be like. Same with KOTOR II (which I liked way better than the first KOTOR, even tho that was pretty amazing) Sadly, I am not too familiar with similar RPG's out there, or even the ones you mentioned, I imagine in no small part due to a lack of mass-marketing. I have played DA:O, and I liked it a lot, but I didnt really feel like Bioware had much improved or developed the RPG stroytelling mechanism: it felt like a darker, fantasy based version of KOTOR with insane graphics and all the blood and gore I could ask for. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed playing it, but yeah, I dont think it's what I was looking for as far as RPG's go. As you pointed out, I obviously prefer games that focus on character skill and not player skill (with the exception being I want the player's mind and creativity to be what drives your character's use of his/her skills)

 

I'm not saying there aren't good games out there, just a lot of lackluster ones compared to really perception-changing titles. (of course that is I think, the nature of any entertainment industry: some projects you do because you mouths to feed and bills to pay, and I understand that). If I plea to Obsidian, it isnt because I don't think they are doing a good job, but because I know their business history, and I think that if ANYONE is going to give RPG gamers a revolutionary RPG experience like was done with the BG or KOTOR series, it will be Feargus Urquhart, and his team from Black Isle at Obsidian.

 

That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but I I still have hope in their talents and abilities as game designers.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand your plea, and I understand why you have faith in Obsidian, considering their past track record (though, to be honest, Obsidian isn't Black Isle, they share a lot of devs, but also have a lot of new faces, some really talented actually).

Point is, sadly, there isn't much I can tell you except 'let's wait and see' when talking about 'revolutionary and perspective changing' RPGs.

Even the most promising indie I've seen (the excellent Age of Decadence, that basically looks like everything a Fallout sequel should have been, placed in a new, fresh setting) are far from 'perspective changing' and my guess is that with the market as saturated as it is now, and publishers so bent on making only either blockbusters or shovelware, we'll have to wait a little bit.

Of course, my hope is that we'll have to wait less, and Obsidian has an unannounced project so who knows..

[IwantbetterRPGS]

You are right, I am just hoping that maybe Obsidian will read this topic and think "hey! we can do that!" (or something similar)

 

I also think I could handle D&D "shovelware" if they made more of it that centered around "playing D&D" on a computer/comsole. I remember growing up and playing D&D with my buddies from school and church, it was just such a fun experience for me, but at the same time it could be time consuming to come up with characters, decent stories/adventures, and tabulate all the calculations. I think rather than make 4th edition rules, WOTC should have just hooked up with OE to churn out little mini-adventures from various D&D realms onto computers and consoles, with the occasional huge project. Of course, then I suppose another concern is doing D&D to death and ruining it for everyone.

 

For example, the Icewind Dale series, which I loved, to me were not as epic as the Baldur's Gate series, just because of the serious lack of dialogue within your own party, as well as a lack of a huge notable difference in your individual party member's personalities. And while I cant STILL to this day play BGII all the way thru, IWD 1 and 2 can get kinda boring for me halfway thru. I also really enjoyed TOEE as a D&D game that was not FR.

 

I suspect I just need to get exposure to more RPGs to know what's out there, as you showed with the various references to RPG's I have NEVER even heard of. I will have to look those up.

 

Thanks!

Edited June 1, 2010 by IwantbetterRPGS

[Monte Carlo]

The experience of posting on here and, before that, on the BIS forums has taught me what is realistic to expect from games developers. They live in a trash compactor of reality - as gamers we largely live in an open-spaced omni-dimensional cloud of optimism. So, with that in mind and considering that I love BG2 as much as the O.P...

 

1. D&D is dead for the time being. Video killed the radio star: PC games copied pen and paper rulesets now pen and paper rulesets copy PC games. D&D4 = WoW it is not even recognisably a RPG as many of us know it. Expect an original IP / ruleset and you won't be disappointed. Somebody will eventually make a D&D4 game, probably a quasi MMO. And it will suck.

 

2. If you switch on the TV you will see that the world economy is more screwed than a Plymouth hooker on Navy Day. Developers will be expected to toil in the games mines to make profitable, mass-appeal games...

 

... which leads me to 3. Consoles. A lot of the things you loved about BG2 aren't really console friendly. All successful games are cross-platform now. You seriously need to lower your expectations.

 

4. The future for the likes of us lies with smaller indie titles and modded games, other fans are more in tune with what have become niche and not very profitable tastes.

 

Dragon Age was as good as it's going to get. Even though it wasn't, for me, good enough I was still grateful for the gesture.

 

 

Cheers

MC

[HoonDing]

In hindsight, after its initial shimmer & shine, Dragon Age to me felt like a MMO disguised as a single-player game. Or Dungeon Siege 2 with a pause button & sex scenes. As far as fantasy party-based (PC exclusive) RPGs go, I've put all my hope in future Drakensang titles.

[Nepenthe]

^The books are not worse than any FR books, and the quality varies greatly from book to book as well.

 

Just like FR, it's a great setting for role-playing. The Krynn trilogy were the best fantasy RPGs out there before Baldur's Gate popped up.

 

Yep. Though I lost interest in FR with the latest revision - and the fact that they never capitalised properly on the Bhaalspawn saga with tie-in products.

 

Dragonlance is definitely my favourite RPG setting, the stuff Sovereign Press and Margaret Weis Productions released for 3e D&D were brilliant. In fact, they were so good that when Wotcy went forward to their 4th edition (and killed the Dragonlance line), I chose to stay back in 3e with the amazing books I had.

[entrerix]

my friends and I tried 4th edition for 1 full year before switching back to 3rd edition.

 

4e sucks.