IwantbetterRPGS

2020 and it’s still an issue. I got as far as Caed Nua level 7 or 8 (well past the ogre level), did the Act I defiance bay quests, went to Dyrford, can’t talk to the ogre at all, he just says we have an arrangement. Have both WM I and II, not interested in using command console because that deactivates the achievements. Playing on steam on a Mac Book

I also think it would be kinda interesting if there was very limited control over my NPC party characters For example, I can mutliclass that mage in my party to maye a few levels of thief or bard, but that is it. Or maybe I can get them to do whatever I want, provided I have uncovered the right dialogue option to convince that cleric to level up as a fighter next. (instead of of NPC XYZ has gained enough experience to level up, ding I just turned my 15 mage into a lvl1 barbarian?) The more outlandish or unlikely the combination relative to the story setting, the harder the dialogue option is to uncover (if it isnt outright impossible)

I personally would love to see a Dark Sun, Oriental Adventures, or FR campaign (provided it doesnt take place in baldur's gate OR icewind dale) that has the following: -3rd ed rules or 3.5, nothing else., preferably with all the skills and feats described therein if possible - NPC party Characters as memorable as Minsc, Seravok, and Viconia, and that devleop on their own thru the story and based on my character's interactions with them - 60+ hours of gameplay (about a third of which is main storyline) - cooler cinematics depicting attacks, actions and skills (like climbing, pickpocketing, etc -greater dependence in the character's skills over those of the player -greater opportunities and incentives to use those skills (I think whether the thief scales the wall, the barbarian breaks it down or the bard persuades a guard to let him thru a gate, for example, there should be rewards for each of them) -dialogue dialogue dialogue -epic items, armor and weapons that show up when your character uses/wears them, and that are unique in appearance. (I would gladly sacrifice insane looking graphics and physics engines for this in exchange for some really well hand-drawn art). Look at WoW. Their graphics aren't out of this world (compared to maybe some other graphics intense games), but they're no slouch either.

You are right, I am just hoping that maybe Obsidian will read this topic and think "hey! we can do that!" (or something similar) I also think I could handle D&D "shovelware" if they made more of it that centered around "playing D&D" on a computer/comsole. I remember growing up and playing D&D with my buddies from school and church, it was just such a fun experience for me, but at the same time it could be time consuming to come up with characters, decent stories/adventures, and tabulate all the calculations. I think rather than make 4th edition rules, WOTC should have just hooked up with OE to churn out little mini-adventures from various D&D realms onto computers and consoles, with the occasional huge project. Of course, then I suppose another concern is doing D&D to death and ruining it for everyone. For example, the Icewind Dale series, which I loved, to me were not as epic as the Baldur's Gate series, just because of the serious lack of dialogue within your own party, as well as a lack of a huge notable difference in your individual party member's personalities. And while I cant STILL to this day play BGII all the way thru, IWD 1 and 2 can get kinda boring for me halfway thru. I also really enjoyed TOEE as a D&D game that was not FR. I suspect I just need to get exposure to more RPGs to know what's out there, as you showed with the various references to RPG's I have NEVER even heard of. I will have to look those up. Thanks!

Let's just say that you're starting with a very specific indication of where your tastes lie, which is not bad, but many may disagree with you, and no, Baldur's Gate II is not 'without a doubt' the most epic and amazing RPG, for various reasons I'm not going to cite now. Let's just accept that as your opinion and go on. Fallout 3 and Oblivion are both weak on the rpg mechanics, yeah, but that doesn't disqualify from the genre. Of course, many on these boards will agree with you, but I don't think they're FPS at all, they only share superficial similarities. Try playing a real first person shooter, you'll notice that the experience is remarkably different. Granted, I understand what you're trying to convey here.. the market lacks games similar to Baldur's Gate II and Kotor II, two games that favored character's skills instead of player skills, were generally more detached experiences, and focused on telling strong stories (something that both Oblivion and Fallout 3 definitely lack). Here I think naivety comes into play, I believe. The idea that Obsidian, as a developer, strayed from those license as a conscious choice because they didn't let them concentrate on graphics or .. whatever. Nope, licensing is something based on more pragmatic things, and unfortunately the D&D license probably won't see games for a lot of times, and LucasArts for now seems more interested with Bioware's work on The Old Republic (their Star Wars-based, Old Republic-era MMORPG) than with the possibility of making a new Star Wars rpg (KOTOR III?) with Obsidian. Fair from a business point of view, considering that KOTOR II sold less than its prequel, and was generally (though far from universally) criticized for its very different writing and storyline, not to mention the fact that the ending didn't make much sense (we already know the story behind this so I'll skip it) and was a pretty buggy game. Here you're basically stating your preferences for an RPG design. Fine, I'm certainly not going to argue with what you like, especially since I agree with most of these things (and I'm a bit tired, so I don't really have the strength to discuss this too ). Again, seems to me like you basically don't like action-rpgs, but just a closer look to the market (especially the european one) would show you that FPS/RPG hybrid are still a minority. It's true that there are more 'twitchy' games and less RtwP/turn-based ones, though, but that's about the only thing I can agree there. Also, it seems to me like you're ignoring a gold mine for a supposedly 'hardcore' rpg player : indies. Games like Eschalon, Age of Decadence (.... 2012, that's the date it will come out, I just feel it ), Geneforge, Avernum etc. all provide turn-based/detached combat, an involved character generation process, usually interesting plots, sometimes choices and consequences (as far as I know, Eschalon and Avernum don't provide much choices, but then again, let's be honest, Baldur's Gate II was largely a linear game too). It's true that they don't have the production values of an AAA game, but let's be honest, you've complained that your computer isn't capable of running Mass Effect, so that's not what you're searching for, right? Just to reassure you, I think that Obsidian WOULD like to make an rpg that tops those games. It's just that it's not easy, and they also have to take care of the other segments of the market. Also, consider that porting this type of experience on a console it's not that easy, you have to inevitably deal with interface problems, hardware limitations etc. Look at the console port of Dragon Age if you want to have an idea of how clunky an interface of a 3d AAA game with a philosophy quite similar to Baldur's Gate II and Knights of the Old Republic II can turn. By the way, if you haven't play the game, try it. I'd say that, with all its faults, it's an enormously fun experience that definitely deserves a chance, and also what's closest to what you consider 'the most epic rpg'. We'll have to disagree on this one. I found DA's setting and factions to be its weakest link. At least ME2 had The Force, Jedi... oh wait Seriously though, Ferelden, Wardens, The chantry, Dark Spawn etc. was as uninspired as could possibly be. Only slight redemption came from a few interesting, atypical NPC's like Sten, Dog and Zevran. If developers want to base it on real world cultures, why not pick something more "distinct", like Celts, Picts, Sumerian or whatever. As I've already said, Grey Wardens and Darkspawn are the weakest part of the setting, but considering how Bioware pulled even the British-lookalikes of Ferelden, I consider myself satisfied. You also forgot to cite the dwarves culture, the depiction of the elves, while not particularly original (it's practically taken from The Witcher), it's better than your usual 'high-and-mighty old-and-wise elf', Sten's people have an interesting culture, and the package comes together rather seamlessly, something that the Forgotten Realms' writer were definitely never capable of pulling off well imho. Then again, I would have preferred another type of setting, not so afraid of pushing Bioware in a different direction.. problem is, it's evident that it's not what the mainstream wants (or Bioware's fan, for that matter). Bioware have catered to the broad audience, and their fans in particular, since practically the beginning of their career as RPG devs, so it doesn't come as a surprise that they tried to go for a 'detailed but ultimately unoriginal' world. There are still a lot of little touches that imho make Ferelden recognizable, which is more than what I expected. P.S. : I'm pretty sure I made a lot of grammar mistakes in the post since it became so long, feel free to point them out to me so I can edit them out and pretend I've never made them! I you hit the nail on the head, and adequately voiced all the things I had in my head that for whatever reason I didn't put on paper. I agree that BG II, by today's standards at least, most likely could not be considered "the most epic game ever". For me it was for the longest time because for its time I think it revolutionized RPG games, as well as setting a bar what what RPG's should be like. Same with KOTOR II (which I liked way better than the first KOTOR, even tho that was pretty amazing) Sadly, I am not too familiar with similar RPG's out there, or even the ones you mentioned, I imagine in no small part due to a lack of mass-marketing. I have played DA:O, and I liked it a lot, but I didnt really feel like Bioware had much improved or developed the RPG stroytelling mechanism: it felt like a darker, fantasy based version of KOTOR with insane graphics and all the blood and gore I could ask for. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed playing it, but yeah, I dont think it's what I was looking for as far as RPG's go. As you pointed out, I obviously prefer games that focus on character skill and not player skill (with the exception being I want the player's mind and creativity to be what drives your character's use of his/her skills) I'm not saying there aren't good games out there, just a lot of lackluster ones compared to really perception-changing titles. (of course that is I think, the nature of any entertainment industry: some projects you do because you mouths to feed and bills to pay, and I understand that). If I plea to Obsidian, it isnt because I don't think they are doing a good job, but because I know their business history, and I think that if ANYONE is going to give RPG gamers a revolutionary RPG experience like was done with the BG or KOTOR series, it will be Feargus Urquhart, and his team from Black Isle at Obsidian. That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but I I still have hope in their talents and abilities as game designers.

That and the new version of D&D totally sucks (although the art is rather damn good). Also, if you give it a squinty eyed view, it almost looks like they've made it similar to WoW for pen n paper time.. so I guess that would both make it simpler, and cause some issues if they try to put it back into a computer game these days.... I heard 4th edition was like D&D for dummies, and totally destroyed the purpose of different classes/skill sets. I want games that use the 3rd or even 3.5 edition rules. And I would love to see them branch out among the different D&D settings. I loved FR, but then I played TOEE and even an Eberron-based gamed, and thought "Hey! these other places have serious potential!" It just would be nice for ONCE to see an RPG that is true to the traditions of old-school D&D RPG (and not a hack-n-slash or an FPS disguised as an RPG *cough cough* OBLIVION *cough cough*), and that fleshes out detailed stories and character development as well as character creation and leveling.

Without a doubt the most epic and amazing RPG was Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, along with its expansion, Throne of Bhaal. Since playing that game all the way thru, (more times than I can remember), every RPG I have ever played since has ranked in comparison to that one totally awesome game, (either vastly inferior, good-but-not-quite-as-good, or, such as in the case of KOTOR II, on par), and NOT ONE has ever been able to significantly surpass it. (This is not so much a scathing criticism of other games as it is a rave review of how amazing BGII is, as well as pointing out the bar that game set for the rest of RPG's) After being thoroughly disappointed by so-called "RPG's" like Oblivion and Fallout 3 (let's be honest and call them what the really are: FPS in RPG clothing), and not finding anything remotely like BGII or KOTOR II on any of the consoles (then again, I have never played Mass Effect and probably won't be able to for a LONG time, seeing as I dont have an Xbox360 or a powerful enough PC), it feels like there is a serious lack of genuine RPG's like the kind we used to grow up with. Instead of amazing and structured game mechanics and immersive stories and characters, its all about graphics graphics graphics. Obsidian: Here is my two cents from someone who has always been a devout fan of Black Isle and OE games: I think you should make MORE games like Baldur's Gate II and KOTOR II. It seems that given the expansive universes provided by BOTH titles, there shouldn't be any limit to the number of different games you could create utilizing their respective universes as the story backdrop. (like was done with the console versions of Baldur's Gate, which where fun in their own right, but lacked many of the things that made BGII and KOTOR II the best games ever) What I would really like to see is a game that focuses less on how graphically intense it is, and is more centered around structured and logical character creation and leveling (like the kind found in 3rd Edition D&D rules), amazing and believable characters and epic storyline (like the kind found in BG II and KOTOR II), artistic design, and REAL RPG's elements like you see in the good old fashioned pen-and-paper traditions of D&D. (multiple solutions to a quest or problem -the more the better-, rewards and incentives based on alignment and choices, XP rewards determined by challenge, and immersive non-linear storytelling) BG II and IWD II were amazing in part because they brought D&D to life, and took away the tedium that came with being a D&D Dungeon Master and rolling different sided die. (the game did those for us). They allowed someone else to write an amazing story for us, while we got to sit back and enjoy the ride. KOTOR II took the best those games had to offer and took them one step further, because it brought the player even closer to their character, and made the story even more immersive. players could now watch their character do more detailed and more unique actions like when he attacked or cast a spell; dialogue options where more diverse and had more of an impact on what become of your allies, not to mention players could feel "more in control" of their character and how the story developed. Alignment was no longer and arbitrary role-playing decision, but had a direct impact on what your character was allowed to do and how he/she could interact with the universe round them. Now it seems like the gaming industry is moving more and more away from traditional RPG mechanics and closer to more "reflex-based" mechanics. (Some of us LIKE turn-based games, and you guys always did an amazing job of providing to both audiences I think). What was once the traditional RPG is slowly mutating into the traditional FPS/hack and slash, without even trying to adequately merge the two like in Borderlands or Diablo. While I recognize that next-gen consoles let video game companies make all kinds of cool explosions and whatnot, it seems to me a better use of these consoles processing power would be to create better structured gameplay, a greater variety of quest solutions, greater diversity of NPC's, NPC and PC growth, and other details that would give such a game a more immersive and cinematic feel. Hardcore RPG fans want to immerse themselves into a story. We want to be guided along a plot that we help create thru individual choices in the game, both thru dialogue and actions. We want to be able to deviate from the script, as it were, from time to time in order to explore this immense world we have been sucked into. We want to feel the joys and sorrows of associating with the various characters in the story. And most importantly, we want to be visibly rewarded at some point in the game for the choices we make. We want to see and feel the consequences of choosing A over B (or vice versa). We want to know that consequence Q that happens 2 ours latter in the game was the result of seemingly trivial-at-the-time decision D. We want those consequences to impact our character via XP, items, or story development. We want to be able to use our own real-life creative problem solving skills, combined with our character's abilities, to come up with innovative solutions to problems presented in the game, and then be visibly rewarded for it (sneaking away from the dragon or beguiling it should reward me as much as killing it would have, even if the rewards may be different). PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, can you make another D&D game that has the story and character development of BG II, the massiveness and scope of KOTOR II, with the character design ability of IWD II or NWN II? And as if that weren't demanding enough, could you please take all of those elements that made each of those games the best of its class, and perfect them, hone them, and make them better? I know that I am not asking for an easy thing, but you would be doing gamer's around the world a huge service, by creating another epic game for the next-gen consoles on par with BGII, while at the same time once again setting the standard for what a good RPG really is. Thanks