Fallout: New Vegas

[Starwars]

Be quiet or I shall post it again!

[WorstUsernameEver]

Be quiet or I shall post it again!

 

Holy ****!

[Nemo0071]

Gun chat.

- Weapon (e.g. minigun) damage balanced? Check.

- Skill points & skill specializations balanced? Check.

- Strength requirements implemented in a way that works in real-time combat? Check.

- Item descriptions? Pending.

 

Overall, great job.

 

Also, this:

* Does it explode? It's an Explosive.

* Does it use Small Energy Cells, Microfusion Cells, or other energy ammo? It's an Energy Weapon.

* Does it use conventional bullets of some flavor as ammo? It's a Gun.

Gotta love the simplicity of it. Why? Because it just works, for RPG veterans and newbies alike.

[vault_overseer]

Mirroring someone's question from the bethboards, where does that put flamer?

[TwinkieGorilla]

Be quiet or I shall post it again!

 

i lol'ed.

 

also: this merging is about as old news as Fallout news gets, dudes. about 8 years old or so...if VB was any indication of how Sawyer would take SPECIAL. frankly, i'm just glad somebody's actually thinking about SPECIAL at all at this point. might actually make the game playable.

[Mirage]

Wait, are the posters at Bethsoft upset about the merging of Big Guns into other skills?

 

If so, they're idiots. To be blunt. It's an effective solution. I would have gone farther and merged energy weapons into other skills (you only need one skill to cover anything that points and shoots non AoE, but I can see Josh's rationale behind keeping EW seperate.

 

It's not just Bethesda's forums to be honest, there's quite a lot of people on No Mutants Allowed and Duck and Cover that didn't like the choice.

And to be fair, the people on Bethesda forums have different opinions, they're not a hive mind intent on deprecating rebalancing.

Anyway, I'm interested now in hearing about how points will be distributed in Fallout : New Vegas.

Sawyer is making it sound like the game will push you into specializing instead of the jack of all trades approach of Fallout 3, and that's definitely a good thing (at least from my point of view.. some will hate the thing, since they probably didn't like the character development aspect of the game and played it as an action-adventure).

 

 

There also people on NMA that don't mind the change, even some of the vets.

[Slowtrain]

Wait, are the posters at Bethsoft upset about the merging of Big Guns into other skills?

seeing as Mr. Sawyer seems to have fairly good instincts about his mechanical tweaks.

 

 

That he does. I disagree with the details of his decisions sometimes, but overall I think his approach to game design mechanics and balance is great.

 

So far pretty much every change that has come out, I find to be positive.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Wait, are the posters at Bethsoft upset about the merging of Big Guns into other skills?

 

If so, they're idiots. To be blunt. It's an effective solution. I would have gone farther and merged energy weapons into other skills (you only need one skill to cover anything that points and shoots non AoE, but I can see Josh's rationale behind keeping EW seperate.

 

It's not just Bethesda's forums to be honest, there's quite a lot of people on No Mutants Allowed and Duck and Cover that didn't like the choice.

And to be fair, the people on Bethesda forums have different opinions, they're not a hive mind intent on deprecating rebalancing.

Anyway, I'm interested now in hearing about how points will be distributed in Fallout : New Vegas.

Sawyer is making it sound like the game will push you into specializing instead of the jack of all trades approach of Fallout 3, and that's definitely a good thing (at least from my point of view.. some will hate the thing, since they probably didn't like the character development aspect of the game and played it as an action-adventure).

 

 

There also people on NMA that don't mind the change, even some of the vets.

 

Of course, what I was trying to imply isn't that NMAers are idiots that dislike change, but that the discontent about the decision is not present only in the Beths forums.

[Slowtrain]

There also people on NMA that don't mind the change, even some of the vets.

 

 

Problem is, a lot of them don't like any change. Period. Also DaC and the Codex.

 

The pre-emininent skill-based combat games such as XCOm and JAgged 2, only had 1 marksmanship skill that covered EVERY SINGLE weapon in those games. And it still didn't mean that EVERY character was as useful with EVERY weapon. There were very definite reasons for who carried what.

 

If it was good enough for those games, where complex firearms combat was much more important to the game design, it's good enough for Fallout.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Problem is, a lot of them don't like any change. Period. Also DaC and the Codex.

 

to be fair...most of the "change" to the core gameplay elements within the series so far has equaled "watered down" so it's natural to see Fallout fans bawwing about change. on the other hand, some of these so-called hardcore fans are showing their colors with their simultaneous "I wish Van Buren happened instead of Bethesda's Failout!" and then going "Merging guns, wtf?!" it's a pretty embarrassing thing to watch go down.

[Enoch]

* Does it explode? It's an Explosive.

* Does it use Small Energy Cells, Microfusion Cells, or other energy ammo? It's an Energy Weapon.

* Does it use conventional bullets of some flavor as ammo? It's a Gun.

Pulse grenade: Explosive, or Energy Weapon??

 

 

Also, I'd really like to see a return of the electric "YK-whatever" pulse weapons that were in FO2. Coolest looking items in the game.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Pulse grenade: Explosive, or Energy Weapon??

 

Explodes? Check. Uses energy ammo? Check failed.

 

So I guess it's an explosive.

Seriously, though, as Sawer already said, it's not made to make sense realism-wise but rather to categorize weapons easily and generally improve game balance.

 

EDIT : The YK-weapons were re-introduced in Fallout 3 by a mod.. I think it was EVE but I may be wrong. With incredibly cool visuals to boot, too!..... that means I'm in favor of seeing them again, anyway.

 

ANOTHER EDIT : Flamers are under energy weapons apparently. So Sawyer said.

Edited May 24, 2010 by WorstUsernameEver

[vault_overseer]

Ninjad

Edited May 24, 2010 by vault_overseer

[Enoch]

But does a pulse grenade explode? Or does it just sit there and emit a one-shot omnidirectional EM pulse? I don't think there's any reason why such a device would have to physically blow up in order to accomplish what it's designed for. I think there's enough ambiguity for the designers to classify it in whichever category feels weaker from a balance perspective.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Enoch

[J.E. Sawyer]

Technically all firearms do is contain and direct explosions. Ergo, you have just made me re-classify all guns as Explosives.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Technically all firearms do is contain and direct explosions. Ergo, you have just made me re-classify all guns as Explosives.

 

.. lol.

 

Thinking about it, I have one question : is weapons that use flamer fuel as energy weapons a definitive thing, and what's the reasoning behind it?

[J.E. Sawyer]

It's what they are classified as right now. Flamer fuel weapons are oddballs because they aren't really Explosives, or Guns, or Energy Weapons. From a balance perspective, Energy Weapons seemed like a good fit for Flamer Fuel weapons.

[WorstUsernameEver]

It's what they are classified as right now. Flamer fuel weapons are oddballs because they aren't really Explosives, or Guns, or Energy Weapons. From a balance perspective, Energy Weapons seemed like a good fit for Flamer Fuel weapons.

 

Sensible enough for me. Balanced & fun gameplay always trump 'BWAAAAH IT BURNS THINGS WHY IS A ENERGY WEAPON?! MAKES NO SENSE!!!'. For me at least.

[Undecaf]

I can't even think of a more sensible place for it with the current weapon categories. Normal guns and explosives just don't seem to fit for it, imo.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Undecaf

[Thorton_AP]

Sawyer is making it sound like the game will push you into specializing instead of the jack of all trades approach of Fallout 3, and that's definitely a good thing (at least from my point of view.. some will hate the thing, since they probably didn't like the character development aspect of the game and played it as an action-adventure).

 

I find this to be a double edged sword. A game like Arcanum forced you to specialize to an extent that I didn't like it. I think Jack of All Trades should be just as viable as full on specialization. This would mean that at the end game, there are still doors that do not require 100% lockpicking to be picked sort of stuff, and so on.

 

To simplify the example: Make it so that you aren't penalized for not going full guns or full lockpicking, with half guns half lockpicking still being suitable. You can't do everything that a full one way can do, but you can do the other skill at a proficient enough level that it lends you certain advantages over a fully specialized character.

 

I'm a bit worried that AP will also require too much specialization as well.

[Thorton_AP]

Are agility and perception really requirements for a gun though? I figure they'd just be factors in accenting your skill. I can understand strength. If you have the steadiest hand in the world (maybe this is agility?), but the gun is physically exhausting just to hold, you're going to struggle with the gun.

I was thinking Agility for melee weapons, and Perception for light ranged ones. By your logic, if you're totally clumsy with a blade you will damage it more than your enemy, and if you're greatly myopic you won't be able to aim with a gun.

 

I think that stuff like that is suitably factored in with the weapon skill. And they do tend to factor into your starting abilities with those weapons.

 

At the same time though, it'd be cool to see high agility open up different types of attacks with weapons (I believe Fallout 2 did do this with H2H combat) and stuff like that. I can still appreciate your perspective about the abilities.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[TwinkieGorilla]

A game like Arcanum forced you to specialize to an extent that I didn't like it.

 

heh. that sort of specializing is exactly why i like Arcanum over all other aspects (aside from the setting) and why i find it so massively re-playable.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Sawyer is making it sound like the game will push you into specializing instead of the jack of all trades approach of Fallout 3, and that's definitely a good thing (at least from my point of view.. some will hate the thing, since they probably didn't like the character development aspect of the game and played it as an action-adventure).

 

I find this to be a double edged sword. A game like Arcanum forced you to specialize to an extent that I didn't like it. I think Jack of All Trades should be just as viable as full on specialization. This would mean that at the end game, there are still doors that do not require 100% lockpicking to be picked sort of stuff, and so on.

 

To simplify the example: Make it so that you aren't penalized for not going full guns or full lockpicking, with half guns half lockpicking still being suitable. You can't do everything that a full one way can do, but you can do the other skill at a proficient enough level that it lends you certain advantages over a fully specialized character.

 

I'm a bit worried that AP will also require too much specialization as well.

 

The point is, in Fallout 3 EVERY character ended up a jack of all trades by the time you reached level 20. That's what I meant when I said that the system will push you into specializing : if you can either be GOOD at something or 'ok' at everything it's ok, if you end being GOOD at everything by the end, no matter how much you try to gimp your character.. that's the epitome of bad design for a character development system in an RPG imho.

[Gromnir]

"If you tagged Big Guns or Energy Weapons early on, you would not be able to gain much, if any, benefit from it for a long time. Even back then, I thought this was problematic. Before playing the game, players could not know how content would limit the applicability of weapons."

 

am not seeing how the merge of big guns into other categories addresses the problem josh identifies in the aforementioned quote. a non sequitur? is flame throwers available early and constitute a bread and butter weapon?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Undecaf]

The point is, in Fallout 3 EVERY character ended up a jack of all trades by the time you reached level 20. That's what I meant when I said that the system will push you into specializing : if you can either be GOOD at something or 'ok' at everything it's ok, if you end being GOOD at everything by the end, no matter how much you try to gimp your character.. that's the epitome of bad design for a character development system in an RPG imho.

 

Agreed.

 

Not to mention that forcing the player to gimp himself in the first place in order to find some balance/challenge is one of the most tedious things in videogames. (imo)