Thornton's voice acting and dialogue

[Azrael the Cat]

I loathe saying this in such a drooling fanboy manner, but I believe Chris Avellone is one of the greatest writers of dialogue in games in the past 15 years. Blatantly (but non-sexually) blowing my own trumpet, I'm not exactly coming from an amateur perspective here. Whilst I know little about fiction writing, I have a fairly impressive publication record in philosophy (primarily on ethics and political philosophy) among some reasonably prestigious academic journals.

 

Now, having got the offputting fanboy service out the way, here's the question I so desperately want to know. Is the voice acting and dialogue of Michael Thornton, that has been released to the press that far, indicative of the final product. My concern is that it doesn't seem to match either your wonderful talent, nor the tongue-in-cheek cross between Bond, Bourne and Bauer that you seem to be going for. I know I am not alone in this: several preview sites have listed this as a concern, the most notable being the cringeworthy 'that anonymous tip-off? All me, baby!'.

 

Ordinarily I would pre-order a game simply because it had Avellone's name attached to it in a significant creative role. But this seriously concerns me. Now I realise there is a tremendous arrogance in my assuming that you - a guy most likely to be running under tremendous crunch time right now - would care less about the concerns of a solitary purchaser. But I doubt that my opinions reflect only my own, and I am not exactly a rabidly negative Codex dog, seeking to shred you at any opportuntiy. I have been in the reverse position, putting out seminars previewing papers I am about to submit for academic publication, and in that position I have often been most grateful for feedback on the assumption that if one intelligent individual finds something problematic, others will do the same.

 

If you would prefer a private response so it doesn't end up plastered over every fansite, you may do so by the email sent in my private msg to Avellone) and I will promise not to forward your comments unless you expressly ask me to do so as a means of calming the snarling hounds of the rpg fan forums. Yes many people make such promises and breach them. But as a professional academic, I actually face considerable repercussions if I were to breach my word in this way. Were I to promise secrecy and then post your remarks on a forum without permission, a single complaint to my employer (University of Western Australia) would result in academic discipline that would likely render me unemployable for life. So yes, you can trust me at my word. Or, of course, you could enlighten the entire forum by replying below.

 

Given all that, I would be incredibly grateful if you could indicate whether (a) you are satisfied with the Thornton voice and dialogue performance as shown in the preview scenes (and hence that the critics are in the wrong), and (b) whether those scenes are typical of Thornton's performance.

 

The biggest complaint that previewers have had is that Thornton sounds far too smug and unlikeable - and given that the player is supposed to identify with him over the full course of a crpg, that sounds like a serious problem. I can envisage ways in which that might intentionally be used for dramatic effect - say if Thornton starts out dislikeable and smug, but gets his comeuppance or some similar emotional challenge to his assumptions, and hence changes in a way that makes him more sympathetic. If so, I am certainly not asking for spoilers of such a kind. But a general indication of whether your views on what makes great dialogue and voice acting matches up with what has been shown (and hence is inconsistent with my own) would be tremendously appreciated. I note that I am not short on cash, and that if you are up front in such a manner, I will certainly buy the game simply to reward the all too rare quality of openness, developer honesty and communication with dedicated fans. I could not, however, bring myself to pre-purchase (or probably even purchase) a game that has been hyped so strongly on its interactivity whilst seeming to fall so flat in its dialogue, without any explanation by its developers. As for explanation, I don't necessarily expect you to waste your time responding by email to me. That WOULD be marvellous of course, but emailing each fan one by one is a slightly inefficient means of marketing. Some form of press release or publicised preview in which you address the (allegedly) poor quality of Thornton's voice acting in previous previews, and how it will relate to the eventual product is more along the lines of what I am seeking.

 

Yours sincerely, and best of luck for your forthcoming games,

Azrael the Cat

[WorstUsernameEver]

I'm not Avellone, but it seem you're slightly overreacting.

Maybe I'm just lenient with bad writing, but I wouldn't really judge it just based on a game preview with a sentence taken out of context.

Especially when you consider that James Bond had puns worse than that in a lot of his instalments, I remember actually reading a couple of quotes like that directly from Fleming's novels, but since I don't have them, I could just be wrong.

 

EDIT : I may be wrong, but I also believe Chris, being one of Obsidian's founders, doesn't have much time to read the boards, so you'll probably be luckier contacting him at his e-mail address.

Edited May 4, 2010 by WorstUsernameEver

[Azrael the Cat]

Just as a note - I wasn't judging by the comments in the previews but by the dialogue and videos themselves. I only mentioned the previews to show that I wasn't alone in my concerns. Also, my point wasn't that cheesiness wasn't allowed - yes, Bond is (as has been stated many times) one of the dialogue options that Obsidian is aiming at. My fear (and one shared by the previewers) is that Obsidian has (in the limited material shown thus far) missed the 'Bond cheesiness', and instead ended up in a territory that seems like an attempt to go halfway between Bond and Bauer, but failing to achieve either.

 

The point which bothered me the most wasn't so much any cheesiness or pseudo-toughness, but the sheer smugness of the character making him intensely dislikeable in a way that can not be said about Bond, except perhaps in his worst outings.

 

Now I'm tremendously hoping that (a) the dialogue, as shown is just a phase that the character moves through before changing through his experiences and transforming into a less smug and more sympathetic character, or (b) simply not indicative of the overall product.

 

Now that's just my opinion. I have no intention of getting into the whole 'my opinion is better than your opinion' game. But given that a decent number of people share my opinion (again, going by the previews, not as something that I'm judging the game on, but as an indication that there are a significant number of other people who think like me on this point), it would be nice to know what we're getting with regards to Thornton's voicework. I, for one (and again, I suspect a fair few others) simply can't imagine enjoying a game where the main character is an arrogant jerk - in the better Bond movies he is suave, stylish but NEVER smug. Smugness is saved for the junk of the Pierce Brosnan era, and I sincerely hope that isn't the kind of Bond that they are aiming at.

 

Again, your opinion is just as valid as mine, so I'm certainly not going to flame you if you want to buy the game anyway, nor if you end up thoroughly enjoying a game. One man (or woman's) junk is another's treasure. Different strokes make the world go around, and all that.

 

So I'm not looking for an attempt to vindicate the voicework that's been released thus far. If you like the voicework in the previews, then by all means buy and enjoy the game. But for those of us who really been put off by the voicework, it's an entirely legitimate question for us to ask whether it is going to be typical of the overall product. Someone coming along and saying 'well in MY opinion the voicework is good' is entirely irrelevant to the concern - I'm not knocking your opinion, just seeking more information relevant to my own opinion.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Honestly, I don't like Mike's face or his voice acting so far. Still, it's not going to stop me from playing the game.

[Tigranes]

Personally, I actually think it's fine. I can easily see ways in which how that voice acting could be very good for the lines he delivers. It could end up being mediocre, too, but I don't really get all this hate-in.

 

Anyway, Azrael, I would think that the kind of questions you are asking are probably best suited to come after you've played the full game? You know, with the correct context to place his comments, and with the experience of the full range of his delivery. Unlike an academic work where an abstract or preview can be considered a reasonable representation of the full work in terms of writing quality/style, Mike VA is meant to be praised by the devs because how flexible it was and how it could handle the huge variety required.

[WorstUsernameEver]

To be honest my point was mainly about the writing.. though voice acting can undermine it/underline it I don't feel you should confuse between them.

Though my real complaint about the VA we've heard it's that's a bit too lifeless.

[Ausir]

Knowing Bethesda, FNV's voice acting will probably be much worse.

[Purkake]

Yup, should have gone with Nolan North.

 

[kreese12]

Hrmm I don't know , I don't mind it myself . I like how M.T is sort of droll and smug. Think that works well, myself. I have done bunch of different kinds of writing and a bit of voice direction myself, and I haven't heard of anything that really bothers me so far (though I admit I've been avoiding the entire last month's worth of videos for fear of spoilers..)

 

As for the writing, Avellone is a top talent, and didn't Brian Mitsoda do at least of the character and dialogue creation? Of a fairly long lifetime of playing games, Vampire M. Bloodlines had what I think of as the best game dialogue and characters in any RPG. Well, up there with Planescape anyways. Sorry, I can't recall how far he was into working on AP when he left.

 

So I'm not too worried. But for me, a big part of this is I like the cliches and stereotypes of spy thriller stuff. In most genres, maybe every other genre even, I think following cliches is a bad idea; but for spy-thriller stuff, I never get tired of typical setups.

 

But whatever our concerns we'll have to judge the games for ourselves when we get our paws on it.

Edited May 5, 2010 by kreese12

[Thorton_AP]

Sounds to me like you just need to wait a bit for the game to come out so you can get a better idea based on impressions and extra clips being made available.

[Llyranor]

The easiest way to make Thorton into a cool protagonist will be to give him shades, a backwards baseball, a suit, a lumberjack beard, and to read his dialogue out loud in the deep voice you'd imagine that Thorton would have.

[Azrael the Cat]

Personally, I actually think it's fine. I can easily see ways in which how that voice acting could be very good for the lines he delivers. It could end up being mediocre, too, but I don't really get all this hate-in.

 

Anyway, Azrael, I would think that the kind of questions you are asking are probably best suited to come after you've played the full game? You know, with the correct context to place his comments, and with the experience of the full range of his delivery. Unlike an academic work where an abstract or preview can be considered a reasonable representation of the full work in terms of writing quality/style, Mike VA is meant to be praised by the devs because how flexible it was and how it could handle the huge variety required.

 

 

My question was quite specifically put in the context of requesting info to help me to decide WHETHER TO BUY the game. Telling someone that 'you'll know once you've bought the game' is a tad silly in that situation isn't it?

 

I mean let me get this straight....are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you only make your mind up WHETHER to buy a game AFTER you've already bought it?

 

I have absolutely no interest in getting into an argument about whether Thornton's voice acting is good or bad. This is NOT the 'let's bash AP' thread. I'm just trying to find out WHETHER it is a game I am likely to enjoy if I buy. Yes, obviously I'll be in a MUCH better position to judge whether I'll appreciate having bought the game AFTER I'VE BOUGHT IT, but that kind of defeats the point of asking, don't you think?

 

Or do you just go buying every single game that gets released, and only THEN decide (post-purchase) whether you should have bought the game or not?

Edited May 5, 2010 by Azrael the Cat

[Azrael the Cat]

Sounds to me like you just need to wait a bit for the game to come out so you can get a better idea based on impressions and extra clips being made available.

 

 

Now THAT'S sensible. It also virtually encourages piracy (how else is one likely to get in depth comparisons of voicework) - I despise piracy and that's why I preferred to simply ask the developers whether the voice acting released was indicative of the final product. It also means pre-ordering is out (which is a pity, because I usually try to support Obsidian games as much as possible).

[The Jackalope]

IMO. I think that Josh Gilman is a decent voice actor. I like how he sounds as

Thorton. The writing is fine to me most of the time give or take a couple bad lines. I think the only problem would be ineffective tone-switching. Like say i went suave and then immediately aggressive. I have a feeling that they didn't take tone change into account when recording. So, Idk about that. But as far as how he sounds, I like it.

Edited May 5, 2010 by The Jackalope

[Enoch]

I have a feeling that they didn't take tone change into account when recording. So, Idk about that.

If you figure out the permutations involved, taking previous stance decisions into account would basically triple the amount of VO they would have to do, which would probably be cost-prohibitive.

 

Also, it's "Thorton." Only one "n."

[The Jackalope]

You're right Enoch. I wasn't trying to turn that into a gripe. Cost effectiveness is always a valid excuse to not do something. I was simply pointing out that could be an issue.

[Tigranes]

I mean let me get this straight....are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you only make your mind up WHETHER to buy a game AFTER you've already bought it?

 

Nope, I actually forgot about this part while I was reading your original post. So if I give a more fully fledged answer:

 

Some form of press release or publicised preview in which you address the (allegedly) poor quality of Thornton's voice acting in previous previews, and how it will relate to the eventual product is more along the lines of what I am seeking.

 

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion, a press release where Obsidian just comes out to say "some people think Mike has bad VA, we assure you we like the VA"? Or, alternatively, "the VA is much better and different in the full game, we promise"? O_o

 

I think the situation is, simply, Obsidian wanted a particular style of VA for Thorton. They got it, maybe not 100% but enough for them to be happy. They feel it makes for a good CRPG experience. Armed with a reasonable level of information, you clearly disagree, and in essence you've already made your mind up. In that context, I don't think a 'private conversation' with Avellone where he, in full faith of your integrity, reveals to you intimate details about how that VA came about and how happy he is, would really do much, and you know, that has about 0.2% chance of happening. It just sounds a bit like "I think VA I've seen is poor" is conflated with "VA is poor" and then "surely Obsidian hasn't made the VA so poor??". Not saying you're just bashing, if you think the VA is poor that's your, and valid, opinion. Just think you're swimming in it a bit deep right now.

 

If we're just talking about the simple question of "will full game Mike VA be just like preview Mike VA or is there more", yeah, I guess it'd be interesting to know. (With Matthew having just left the company, chances of getting a quick straight answer? Not that high.) My guess is that preview VA is a pretty good representation of the full thing, it's not like choices & consequences that is harder to preview.

[Thorton_AP]

Sounds to me like you just need to wait a bit for the game to come out so you can get a better idea based on impressions and extra clips being made available.

 

 

Now THAT'S sensible. It also virtually encourages piracy (how else is one likely to get in depth comparisons of voicework) - I despise piracy and that's why I preferred to simply ask the developers whether the voice acting released was indicative of the final product. It also means pre-ordering is out (which is a pity, because I usually try to support Obsidian games as much as possible).

 

 

It only encourages piracy if that's where your mind goes. I don't pirate either, but there will be no shortage of increased samples and opinions of the game once it gets released. I don't see how it encourages piracy at all. Unless you feel you must have the game at release. At which point, I must contend that the current sampling of dialogue really isn't that big of a deal for you.

 

Buy the game when it comes down in price. Which is also one thing I was hinting at. You're not a slave that has to buy a game you have reservations about at release.

[Nepenthe]

And, contrary to popular belief, you don't have to buy games the month they come out OR wait for the drop in price! You can actually buy them on any date after the initial release!

 

Probably less applicable here, but it wouldn't be the first time I've seen that kind of thinking on this forum.

[WorstUsernameEver]

My question was quite specifically put in the context of requesting info to help me to decide WHETHER TO BUY the game. Telling someone that 'you'll know once you've bought the game' is a tad silly in that situation isn't it?

 

I mean let me get this straight....are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you only make your mind up WHETHER to buy a game AFTER you've already bought it?

 

I have absolutely no interest in getting into an argument about whether Thornton's voice acting is good or bad. This is NOT the 'let's bash AP' thread. I'm just trying to find out WHETHER it is a game I am likely to enjoy if I buy. Yes, obviously I'll be in a MUCH better position to judge whether I'll appreciate having bought the game AFTER I'VE BOUGHT IT, but that kind of defeats the point of asking, don't you think?

 

Or do you just go buying every single game that gets released, and only THEN decide (post-purchase) whether you should have bought the game or not?

 

To be honest if I were you I'd wait 'till the game has come out and read comments here and there.

After all, I don't think anyone will be angry with you if you take the cautious approach.