Dragon Age Discussion

[Gromnir]

is hardly difficult to imagine a setting where people/beings do not believe in objective morality or Reasons for Existence w/o it being dark. postmodern fiction has become increasingly nihilistic, and while much such fiction is dark, not all is. God is Dead. fine. is impossible to imagine a period of mourning after which folks go on with their lives? nihilism is not inherent dark.

 

Ok, now I sorta see where we differ. Your cause and effect is complitely opposite of mine. If you'd design nihilistic setting, denizens in it would *shrug* few times and get on with their insignificant lives and still live just about the same as they used to. In my nihilistic setting it would end up in flames or at least in complite collapse of the society.

 

Might be "fun" PnP project. Something like world full of characters like Kevin Nealon's excellent Doug Wilson (from the Weeds).

 

 

...

 

am thinking you is still missing.

 

is very easy to envision dark nihilistic worlds where lack o' meaning = loss of hope. however, is hardly impossible to envision the opposite...

 

is not Gromnir's view v. yours. is fact that Gromnir recognizes that nothing inherent in nihilism = dark. nihilism is. people add all their own baggage into the mix and end up with utopia or dystopia or some other topia.

 

"The potion of re-spec shows how hopelessly unbalanced DA is"

 

am wondering if developers recognize the problem with balance if respec has greater impact than difficulty slider. heck, alan were telling us contemp with game release that the general consensus 'mongst testers/developers were that the ultimate power group were 3 mages and a tank. shouldn't that have created some awareness 'mongst the developers that they had some balance concerns? now is possible tha the developers ain't genuine concerned with balance... which is fine. am not gonna agree that balance is unimportant, but we has seen such arguments made. 'course if balance ain't a concern, then we cannot guess why new powhaz and skills ain't usable in OC.

 

HA! Good Fun

Edited March 11, 2010 by Gromnir

[RPGmasterBoo]

btw, on the issue of the specific topic o' bio's making of da darkness, we think it is manifest unfair to use textbook or wiki definitions o' literary darkness. there is a great deal o' difference o' opinion regarding what makes for darkness in lit and games.

 

Yeah, but you still have to start from somewhere. They said it was going to be dark fantasy (at least early on as far as I remember) and some comparisons are in order. Dark fantasy is obviously a rather weakly defined subgenre (if its even that at all) but some of its common traits aren't really found in DA.

 

All that I'd argue is that its a Bioware game through and through and the same as everything else they've made, without any substantial deviation from the original formula. And with about as much innovation as ME's dialogue wheel. I suppose everyone's marketing is as full of **** as theirs - I'm probably to blame for noticing their claims and actually expecting that something would come of them in the final product.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Gorth
Language

[Volourn]

"that the ultimate power group were 3 mages and a tank."

 

Kinda like if you went 5 mages and a tank in BG2. LMAO

[Gromnir]

"that the ultimate power group were 3 mages and a tank."

 

Kinda like if you went 5 mages and a tank in BG2. LMAO

 

pray-tell, what does bg2 have to do with da:o balance?

 

in any event, we doubt a powergamer would play through bg2 with 5 mages and a tank. experience were parceled out different, so am recalling that a 4 person party actual leveled and were tougher sooner than a six member party. ranger/cleric, kensai/mage a thief/mage combo o' some sort, and berserker or inquisitor were the most oft mentioned power-group we saw... never saw anybody other than vol suggest that 5 mages and a tank were best. but again, even if it were true, what does that have to do with da:o?

 

you were mentioning logic earlier? try and guess which logic fallacy you is making. is a good exercise.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

A lot of dinks complain that DAO is worse than BG2 because BG2 was more baalnced because mages weren't as overpwoered in BG2. That's bullocks, and everyone knows it so why do they spout that nonsense?

[Gromnir]

A lot of dinks complain that DAO is worse than BG2 because BG2 was more baalnced because mages weren't as overpwoered in BG2. That's bullocks, and everyone knows it so why do they spout that nonsense?

 

 

am not seeing anybody in this thread making the claim you suggest. regardless, even if somebody was making such a claim, how does bg2 balance problems impact da:o balance? you is making complete nonsense arguments that got zippo impact on the issue at hand. might as well tell us that diablo 2 mages were just as imbalanced as da:o mages. who cares? so what? assuming vol is correct, why does existence of overpowered mages in a d&d game made a decade ago make one bit o' difference regarding the balance o' mages in a non-d&d game released in 2009?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[RPGmasterBoo]

DAO is worse than BGII because BGII is the better game. That's all there is to it. Just wake up and smell the roses because no amount of bickering and vague claims will change that. Neither your nor mine personal tastes figure into the equation.

 

...Then again NWN series is the best ever, and who am I to argue that.

[RPGmasterBoo]

A lot of dinks complain that DAO is worse than BG2 because BG2 was more baalnced because mages weren't as overpwoered in BG2. That's bullocks, and everyone knows it so why do they spout that nonsense?

 

 

am not seeing anybody in this thread making the claim you suggest. regardless, even if somebody was making such a claim, how does bg2 balance problems impact da:o balance? you is making complete nonsense arguments that got zippo impact on the issue at hand. might as well tell us that diablo 2 mages were just as imbalanced as da:o mages. who cares? so what? assuming vol is correct, why does existence of overpowered mages in a d&d game made a decade ago make one bit o' difference regarding the balance o' mages in a non-d&d game released in 2009?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Why do you insist on logic where it doesn't apply?

[Guest Slinky]

New awakening party member: Justice

 

While that is just a minute long trailer, I already got all kinds of horrible thoughts what would happen to Vhailor in Bio's hands.

[Gorgon]

The Uwe Boll approach to fantasy character writing. Somehow it fits DA well.

 

Why the over the top gesturing in the engine. Just because you can have the character wave his fists menacingly and move his head dramatically to every full stop in his speech doesn't mean its a good idea to do have him do so.

[Volourn]

"I already got all kinds of horrible thoughts what would happen to Vhailor in Bio's hands."

 

A lot less boring, a lot more entertaining, less one dimensional, and a heck of a lot more logical.

[Gorgon]

Nothing confirms like the fact that Volo disagrees.

[WorstUsernameEver]

and a heck of a lot more logical.

 

Having played Dragon Age I'm not sure I can agree on this one.

Loghain's action had no logic whatsoever and even after reading the wiki, spoiler myself about the new DLC and the books I can't really understand exactly why he did what he did and, most of all, WHY BIOWARE THOUGHT HE WAS A GOOD ANTAGONIST?

Fortunately the game was good enough to make me forget about this.

[Volourn]

Not my fault someone had to point out one of the 3 worst PST characters. let's talkDak'kon. Now, he's awesome. I guess you think he sucks and I'm just being contrary saying he's awesome? LMAO

 

Seriously, what's so kewl about that retarded tin can known as Vhailor? NOTHING.

 

 

"Having played Dragon Age I'm not sure I can agree on this one.

Loghain's action had no logic whatsoever and even after reading the wiki, spoiler myself about the new DLC and the books I can't really understand exactly why he did what he did and, most of all, WHY BIOWARE THOUGHT HE WAS A GOOD ANTAGONIST?

Fortunately the game was good enough to make me forget about this. "

 

OMG I actually agree to a point. There is definitely some 'loopholes' as far as logic is concerned where Loghain is. He's an okay antagonist but coulda been so much better. I just have a hard time belieiving someone so dedicated toa country would allow its soliders to be wiped out and to start a murderous civil war for lols.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Volourn

[Oner]

A lot less boring

Subjective.

 

a lot more entertaining

Vhailor: When the injustice is great enough, justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it. None may stand against it. It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment, and lend its servant the power to pass sentence. Know this: There is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them. It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods. Know that for all who betray justice, I am their fate. And fate carries an executioner's axe.

The Nameless One: I see.

Vhailor: No you do not see. Pray that you will never see.

Entertaining enough.

 

less one dimensional

Nevermind that's the whole point of the character.

 

and a heck of a lot more logical

Greatest believer in justice becomes justice incarnate. Makes sense, especially in this setting.

 

Bizarro hormones overwhelming you again?

 

Also, r00fles.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Oner

[Volourn]

"Vhailor: When the injustice is great enough, justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it. None may stand against it. It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment, and lend its servant the power to pass sentence. Know this: There is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them. It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods. Know that for all who betray justice, I am their fate. And fate carries an executioner's axe.

The Nameless One: I see.

Vhailor: No you do not see. Pray that you will never see."

 

Word diaherra is not entertaining. Might as well have included a psyhopledia with that dialogue - espicially consideirng the reply to it all is two words.

 

Vhailor: BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH etc.

 

TNO: I see.

 

 

DEEP.

 

Give me Dak'kon. Thanks.

[Oner]

I'm sorry that the text was too difficult for you.

 

Also, entertainment is as deep as pain is dark.

[mr insomniac]

Keith David makes Vhailor awesome. This is fact.

 

Vhailor was underdeveloped, yes, but his big drawbacks are that you find him so late in the game, and if you're not careful you must permanently lose someone else if you want to take him along.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Going back to DA anyway.. from what I've seeing untill now Awakening is looking very good but also not what exactly I'd expect by an expansion.

Some decisions, like not letting you use new talents in the OC just sound so.. so strange.

Is there any word on how the decisions you made in Origins will have an impact in Awakening?

[Gorgon]

Well sometimes the MYSTARRY is better than a painstaking tally of an NPCs motivations. I just replayed PST on my crappy laptop and aside from kicking Morte immediately and never looking back I have to say the characters stand the test of time. Delving into their back stories is not mandatory, but interesting enought to pursue for its own sake, thats the way it should be.

[Gorgon]

As an aside, I also discovered that I shop in the same supermarket as Ravel Puzzlewell.

[Maria Caliban]

"If they're made aware that those characters and events are not meaningful, they will perceive the work as being darker."

 

this too is NOT nihilism. lack o' objective meaning or morality hardly robs characters and story of meaning. yet another coffee shop goth's pov o' nihilism.

 

As I don't drink coffee and am not a goth...

 

The real problem is that you, personally, don't find nihilism dark. Many people do. If you have a story where the events are meaningful for the hero, but it makes it clear that in the scheme of things, these events mean nothing, then they will perceive it as being dark. That you find this illogical or wrong doesn't change the emotional reaction of the reader.

 

Look at some of the most popular fantasy series: The Wheel of Time, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, the Sword of Shannara. There is Good

[RPGmasterBoo]

As I don't drink coffee and am not a goth...

 

The real problem is that you, personally, don't find nihilism dark. Many people do. If you have a story where the events are meaningful for the hero, but it makes it clear that in the scheme of things, these events mean nothing, then they will perceive it as being dark. That you find this illogical or wrong doesn't change the emotional reaction of the reader.

 

Look at some of the most popular fantasy series: The Wheel of Time, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, the Sword of Shannara. There is Good

[Gromnir]

The real problem is that you, personally, don't find nihilism dark. Many people do. If you have a story where the events are meaningful for the hero, but it makes it clear that in the scheme of things, these events mean nothing, then they will perceive it as being dark. That you find this illogical or wrong doesn't change the emotional reaction of the reader.

 

as boo stated, nihilism ain't dark... is your pov or the artist's pov that makes dark. you clearly do not understand anything more than coffee shop goth or fantasy rpg pov o' nihilism if you is making the aforementioned statements. the acts o' the nihilist hero is damned important... to the hero himself, and to those who follow him. the nihilist hero's actions is not meaningful simply because he is fighting for good or light, but to suggest that such actions mean nothing is to completely misunderstand and misrepresent nihilism.

 

as for examples... is more than a couple. many here is fans o' stephen brust and his taltos (sp?) books. is a classic nihilist hero. matthew woodring stover is likewise know for incorporating nihilism into his works... and he even has some star wars books to his name. Robert E. Howard were definitely tending towards dark, but one of his contemporaries, Fritz Leiber, had heroes and tales that far more... sunny. fafhrd and grey mouser, like conan, were rogues who weren't too picky 'bout the jobs they took. but they had a personal code and they sure had fun, no? writers such as Moor****, feist and Gaiman has suggested that they owe more to Leiber than to tolkien. gene wolf typically gets the dark and nihilism label, but recent wizard and knight books were hardly grim.

 

if you wish, we can continue?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Maria Caliban]

Its not a matter of personal preference, nihilism by itself isn't dark.

 

Nothing is inherently dark in fiction. 'Dark' refers to elements that tend to cause a negative emotional reactions. Do nihilistic concepts cause negative emotional reactions? They do, consistantly. See, The Unbearable Lightness of Being. There are very few stories about how being meaningless in the scheme of things is great, but there are many about how it's horrible. Why? Because people dislike the idea that life and morality are ultimately meaningless.

 

Now, you might find that reaction stupid or wrong, but that's still a consistant reaction.

 

 

Then, would you say that the most popular fantasy hero - Conan is dark? Because his motivations most of the time are either survival or personal gain, very rarely altruistic in nature.

 

There's nothing nihilistic about Conan though. His motivations might not be good, but he's still presented as a heroic (hero as in Greek heros, not boy-scouts like Superman) figure whose struggles and triumphs are meaningful.

 

 

...would it surprise you that quite a few people don't find anything particularly (more) meaningful in the standard fantasy good vs evil plot?

 

How many are quite a few? Show me a nihilistic fantasy that's as popular as Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. Even in dark fantasy like Dawn and Dusk, Song of Ice and Fire, the Books of the Fallen, Best Served Cold, or the Black Company, we're lead to believe that the events are important. That they have meaning.

 

Torment would seem to fit your definition of dark, but it has an extremely engaging storyline with a lot of emotional punch.

 

Yes, but I never said that dark stories couldn't be emotionally engaging, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

To clarify:

A story can be dark without being nihilistic.

A dark story can be emotionally engaging.

Nihilism will make the reader or audience perceive the story as being dark.

 

Now, I can give you examples of a story that

Edited March 11, 2010 by Maria Caliban