Infinity Ward founders canned by Activision

[Volourn]

I've answered that question a billion times. The one with the real power - the publisher.

[Calax]

I've answered that question a billion times. The one with the real power - the publisher.

So, basically, you're saying that if a developer delivers a product, they no longer have any responsability for it's success or failure financially, and shouldn't be penalized if it's a terrible performer and/or broken, because that's the publishers fault and they should have pushed it back until it turned into duke nukem, HOWEVER they should be rewarded when their game sells like hotcakes because well, it was all their effort that pushed them over the top and had NOTHING to do with the publisher.

[Volourn]

"So, basically, you're saying that if a developer delivers a product, they no longer have any responsability for it's success or failure financially, and shouldn't be penalized if it's a terrible performer and/or broken"

 

Don't be nonsensical in you devil's advocate trolling that you already admitted to. We're talking about the lack of a logic not the crappiness of a product. Also, IW is not a 'developer' ala Obsidian who are contracted out. They are owned by ACTI.

 

When a publisher hires Obsidian, they hire them for the rep, and their ability to make games.

 

ACTI owns IW. They are the bosses. IW is simply a division hence whey they can fire the IW 'founders'. Sega CANNOT fire Uruqhart from his post at Obsidian.

 

Bottom line here is ACTI is in charge. They have final say. They found the product THEIR employees delivered to them suitable to release... and, guess whatm, they were right, since it made millions largely ebcause of the great promotion ACTi did. See, I gave them credit for their share of its success. You make it sound either/or. Just ebcause I beleive ACTI are thieves (which theya dmitted to); doesn't mean they don't get their due.

 

 

"HOWEVER they should be rewarded when their game sells like hotcakes because well, it was all their effort that pushed them over the top and had NOTHING to do with the publisher."

 

Nonsense. I guarantee if the game had bombed heads would have rolled at IW. No doubt about it. So, to say, the developer wouldn't get the blame if the game failed is silly talk by a silly admitted troll. btw, The publisher got rewarded. I would also presume if the game had bombedm, the bonus would ahve been MUCH lower. LMAO I'm sure ACTI got a nice cut of profits ebcause the game was a success. Silly person.

[Calax]

Well, you seem to be saying that as soon as it left IW's hands IW would get the bonuses even if it was like Zone of the Enders and only sold because of something inside, not because it's actually a good game in its own right (which was true with ZoE).

 

And similarly with the whole "Acti owns IW" Acti owns them and thus can in theory dissolve or build the company as they see fit, thus they can do similar with the paycheck. Then again, it's been proven that even if the world is in the worst financial situation because of one persons actions they still get a bonus because, well, they get bonuses (see: Wall Street).

 

I find it appalling that somebody would have people saying "This guy deserves a bonus" when "this guy" didn't even do his job properly. And then you go out of your way to shift the blame from the persons who job it was to do something and put it on the person who ordered it and refuse to acknoweldge that anything monetary could be leveled at the devs for not doing their jobs properly because "LAWL IT SOLD WELL!" which was mostly due to the publisher deciding to not make a big deal about something small, only to see the developer take all the credit and demand a bonus because they sold well WHEN ANYTHING SELLS WELL.

[Mamoulian War]

Seriously, how the hell can anybody, with a sane mind, claim, that these guys did not do their job properly, hell i wish i could **** up my job that way, that i make my employer millions of dollars in a single day!!! and can bet your ass, that i would demand my ****ing bonuses aswell!!!

[Calax]

Seriously, how the hell can anybody, with a sane mind, claim, that these guys did not do their job properly, hell i wish i could **** up my job that way, that i make my employer millions of dollars in a single day!!! and can bet your ass, that i would demand my ****ing bonuses aswell!!!

Because they didn't. Part of the whole "Do your job properly" thing is that you have to follow instructions from your bosses, which the IW guys didn't do. And people are saying "well that's on Acti! It was their decision to publish it without the requested piece" Which netted Acti/IW extra profit due to timing.

 

I find it interesting that Acti is to blame for letting the game out the door without their logo, but IW is to blame totally for their profits.

 

Edit: I realize I'm not going to win this because people think that what Acti did was stealing, but I'm wondering just how many of you would be crying if Acti let west and zamp go BEFORE dropping MW2 because of the fact that they said "Give us mo money or we don't let you release!" I'm guessing a lot of you would still be rabidly defending west and zamp simply because they're the developers and Acti has a rep for being a bit of a **** (as does EA).

 

Also it should be pointed out that part of Acti's counter suit is that IW is blocking further development on the Modern Warfare line (Thus, removing an income source), and have a noted track record (from what little I found from their split from the group that did Medal of Honor) of saying "We don't WANNA!" and leaving their company because they wanted to mess around doing something else. Of course when they left EA/Medal of Honor they went and made THE EXACT SAME GAME(!) which to me says that they aren't so much saying "we don't wanna" as "We wanna be powerful".

 

IW did break it's contract, they actively sought to divorce themselves from Acti WELL before their contract was up (2 years), they deliberately didn't follow instructions, and they (allegedly) openly called their bosses incompetent idiots. And when this first appeared most people were saying "They were illegally fired!" because we didn't know anything and now we've come full circle to about the same thing "They had their money stolen from them" and we know next to ZILCH about what actually happened.

 

...

 

Now that I think about it, I'm worried about what's gonna happen if West and Zamp win. If they do, devs get carte blanche to act how they want to their publisher/owner as long as the product sells well because the only repercussion for being a **** on that order is simply having to change who your bosses are.

 

Second edit about the below:

A) Who actually paid for the marketing? Acti or IW? Cause most of the stuff at my store was from Acti, not IW.

B) I don't think you were locked into your job and pay grade on a 3 year contract. West and Zamp were, at least from what I understand. They couldn't just say "I quit" and go out looking for another job because they were tied to Acti until at least 2011 (I'm assuming that if they did quit, they couldn't seek other employment until then).

C) Sales in a single day, while impressive, isn't solely the merit of the devs. Activision had a HUGE role in that and could have honest to god tanked IW if they wanted (at a cost to themselves, but the way you're demonizing acti...) by releasing it on jan 4th at 70 bucks a pop, people would have bought it, but not nearly as many.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Calax

[Mamoulian War]

They did, it sold millions of copies in a single day, the quality for many people can be questionable, but the fact that it sold so many copies in a single day, means that programmers and marketing team did their job properly, and both of them are entitled to their bonuses, and it is normal, that any person goes and search for another employer if they do think that their boss is not giving them the money they deserve it... I did it 3 times in last 5 years... whenever i programmed something which made my boss ****loads of profits, and he was not willing to give me payrise, i just simple quit and got a new job in few days... most of them lost more money while searching for new workforce with equal skills to mine, and they full deserved it... the IW guys, had the same right, to make this sort of decision, as i did...

Edited April 27, 2010 by Mamoulian War

[Volourn]

"And similarly with the whole "Acti owns IW" Acti owns them and thus can in theory dissolve or build the company as they see fit, thus they can do similar with the paycheck."

 

Nice try though, but it doesn't work that way. ACTI signeda contract with the IW founders and the rest of the crew. Part of this contract was about bonuses. You can't just say I'm not paying you. It don't work that way.

 

 

"find it appalling that somebody would have people saying "This guy deserves a bonus" when "this guy" didn't even do his job properly."

 

 

But, they did. Therer's little doubt that the bonuses owed wer elikely based on how much the game sold. The game sold millions therefore they are owed bonuses. The bonuses are not based on whetehr Calax likes the game or wheteher or nott he logo was on the disc. L0L

 

 

"WHEN ANYTHING SELLS WELL."

 

Tell that to Troika, and a bunch of others devs that see their games bomb. LMAO

 

 

"but IW is to blame totally for their profits."

 

Who is saying this? Don't be a contrary troll for the sake of it. Both are responsible for the profits. However, one again, the bonuses were likely based on how much the game sold. As we all know, the game was a mega success hence the huge bonuses. Duh.

 

 

"IW did break it's contract, they actively sought to divorce themselves from Acti WELL before their contract was up (2 years)"

 

An employee can seek to leave their employer whenever they want just like an employer can fire you before your contract is up. I would not be surprsie if there are 'opt outs' for both sides. *shrug* You notice how nobody is crying about the fact they were fired? Let's read that, again. They didn't quit ebfore the 3 years were up; but ACTI FIRED them breaking according to you, the 'ironclad' contract. L0L

 

 

"they (allegedly) openly called their bosses incompetent idiots."

 

And? I doubt calling the boss an idiot is technically against the contract. Nice try, though. Besdies, ACTI was breaking the contract left and right. ie. Stealing money, trying to force them to make x game when the contract allowed IW to choose to make y game. Oh, I bet you forgoit about that issue, right?

 

 

Then again, your nonsense is silly and you know it as you admitted to statuing contradictory stuff just because so you can be different because ACTI has no supporters (including their own employees who are leaving them left and right), so in essence, you admitted to trolling.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Volourn

[Volourn]

ACTI now faces a 2nd lawsuit be former IW employees for their their stealing of others' money. This one field by 38 employees you have quit their company recently who are complaining that ACTI won't pay them bonuses owed them.

 

ACTI admits to do so but have claimed the 'legal right' to do so as the bonuses are reserved, according to them, only for 'current' IW employees, and they can pay it when they so choose to.

 

That logic is retarded because if it was true, they could technically fire ALL IW emplyees, than right afterwards, officially state they are paying out the bonuses and since there'd be no 'current' IW employees to pay they would then be able to keep the money. That is just screwed up logic.

 

How can anyone defend such a stance as being 'legit'? It most certainly isn't morally justified, and it soiunds legally suspect... and, if it is, that's a a retarded law. Plain, and simple.

 

btw, the suing ex employees claim the bonuses were for completing Modern Warfare 2. Unless they are falt out lying, they are owed the bonuses. Period. To not pay them is theft.

[Calax]

ACTI now faces a 2nd lawsuit be former IW employees for their their stealing of others' money. This one field by 38 employees you have quit their company recently who are complaining that ACTI won't pay them bonuses owed them.

 

ACTI admits to do so but have claimed the 'legal right' to do so as the bonuses are reserved, according to them, only for 'current' IW employees, and they can pay it when they so choose to.

 

That logic is retarded because if it was true, they could technically fire ALL IW emplyees, than right afterwards, officially state they are paying out the bonuses and since there'd be no 'current' IW employees to pay they would then be able to keep the money. That is just screwed up logic.

 

How can anyone defend such a stance as being 'legit'? It most certainly isn't morally justified, and it soiunds legally suspect... and, if it is, that's a a retarded law. Plain, and simple.

 

btw, the suing ex employees claim the bonuses were for completing Modern Warfare 2. Unless they are falt out lying, they are owed the bonuses. Period. To not pay them is theft.

Perhaps the employees should be asking west and zamp for that money that they're suing Acti for allegedly in part for their employees?

 

Only gonna touch on two things:

 

An employee can seek to leave their employer whenever they want just like an employer can fire you before your contract is up. I would not be surprsie if there are 'opt outs' for both sides. *shrug* You notice how nobody is crying about the fact they were fired? Let's read that, again. They didn't quit ebfore the 3 years were up; but ACTI FIRED them breaking according to you, the 'ironclad' contract. L0L

There may be opt outs, but they still shouldn't have been seeking other employment well before their contract was up. I'd expect that leaving prior to contract completion via an opt out would be pretty harsh (as well as west and zamp stealing data from activision and taking it to EA). As for the crying, please read the first page of this thread where people were saying that Acti was in for it for firing them for no reason.

 

And? I doubt calling the boss an idiot is technically against the contract. Nice try, though. Besdies, ACTI was breaking the contract left and right. ie. Stealing money, trying to force them to make x game when the contract allowed IW to choose to make y game. Oh, I bet you forgoit about that issue, right?

Oh, wait, Acti was breaking the contract and stealing money before they were even supposed to owe IW money? How does that work? Did they find a time machine and break the laws of physics while people weren't looking? And the MoU hasn't even been seen since it's initial reporting, like most things, so we can't comment on that, but I'm guessing that West and Zamp left a few choice things about the MoU out of their bitching essay called a complaint.

 

One thing you seem to ignore volo, is that direct insubordination and failure to fulfill objectives generally begets pretty significant sanctions against an employee, no matter what happens afterwords, it still happened and thus the bosses can take diciplinary action as they see fit.

 

All this speculation gets us nowhere except make us both look like idiots for saying things like "THEY WERE WITH HOLDING BONUSES BEFORE THEY SHOULD HAVE HAD BONUSES!" and "They probably kept bonus money for themselves to get their employees angry". I say let this thread die, and the legal drama play out in the courts.

[Mamoulian War]

Perhaps the employees should be asking west and zamp for that money that they're suing Acti for allegedly in part for their employees?

 

Ever thought that perhaps they do exactly know who they have to ask for their money? That's why they filled the 2nd lawsuit against ACTI

Edited April 28, 2010 by Mamoulian War

[Calax]

Perhaps the employees should be asking west and zamp for that money that they're suing Acti for allegedly in part for their employees?

 

Ever thought that perhaps they do exactly know who they have to ask for their money? That's why they filled the 2nd lawsuit against ACTI

My point was that in West and Zamps complaint they're asking for money that INCLUDES their employees bonuses in the lawsuit.

[Bos_hybrid]

Current count of employees that have left IW is 26. This is now more then just West and Zampella, 26 happy employees don't just up and leave.

[Nepenthe]

Current count of employees that have left IW is 26. This is now more then just West and Zampella, 26 happy employees don't just up and leave.

 

Talk about strangling the goose that lays golden eggs.

 

Of course, Acti could be figuring that anybody can make a CoD:MW game and it's still going to make them billions. They are probably right.

[Morgoth]

"Analyst: Infinity Ward To Be 'Essentially Closed' After Next Map Pack?" Click

 

Usually, these worthless Analysts are always wrong, but considering that IW employees just filed a lawsuit against A-B for their unpaid bonuses this might actually be a step A-B will indeed take.

 

Shut down IW, problem solved.

 

 

Not really.

 

[Calax]

http://kotaku.com/5526164/activision-ceo-g...signs-from-post

[Nepenthe]

Interesting.

 

Also, the employee lawsuit apparently includes some people still working at IW. Very interesting to see if this ever goes to court.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Volourn]

"Perhaps the employees should be asking west and zamp for that money that they're suing Acti for allegedly in part for their employees?"

 

Are you serious? Don't you thinkt he people filing the lawsuit would have an idea who owes them what money?

 

 

ACTI looks like it is destroying the goose that laid a golden egg. Man, theya re dumb. You keep bashing the IW founders yet it should be apparant that ACTI's actions were not just against them but the entirety of IW. byut, hey, I guess the whole of IW employees are at fualt even thoguh ACTI claimed they wnated to keep the stolen money so they could be heroes to the IW employees. LMAO ACTI are screwing themselves. LMAO

 

This has got to be one of the biggests self destructions ever. HAHAHA!

 

Now, an ACTI CEO of publishing has resigned. HAHAHAHAHA!

 

Pathetic.

 

What's funny is no matter what happens, the IW founders are going to get what they ultimatrely want - a break from ACTI. While ACTI gets what? Nothing but embarassment.

 

 

"Also, the employee lawsuit apparently includes some people still working at IW. "

 

That's hilarious! That said, they won't be workinjg there much longer. They'll either 'resign' or be fired.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Volourn

[Morgoth]

Halo: Modern Warfare is coming! Click

[Oner]

Epic facepalm.

[Syraxis]

Halo: Modern Warfare is coming! Click

 

At least Bungie owns the IP.

[Purkake]

[Meshugger]

http://kotaku.com/5526164/activision-ceo-g...signs-from-post

 

 

[Oner]

Acti eaten by demons, mmm..

[Orogun01]

I guess he couldn't handle the guilt. and now they have Bungie under their thump. Should go well together, considering that Bungie only releases Halo games and a bunch of spin offs.