The man speaks the truth, but no one listens

[Wrath of Dagon]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/33412.html

 

An interesting and depressing article by David Stockman about the current financial situation of the US government.

[Gorth]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/33412.html

 

An interesting and depressing article by David Stockman about the current financial situation of the US government.

Interesting reading >_

 

Mind you, I don't get all the names and references, but the gist of it is clear. You guys need more taxes to survive 30 years of malpractise. Add 3 percent sales tax and a tax on the Wall Street "Casino" transactions.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If there have to be more taxes, I'd rather see a broadbased income tax hike. A VAT will just open a new revenue stream to grow the government, pretty soon it'll be 15%, and then 25%.

[I want teh kotor 3]

There need to be less taxes, not more taxes; government spending just needs to go down to make up for it.

[Killian Kalthorne]

There are a number of things we can do to cut government spending. First close all military bases in all foreign countries and bring all our troops home. Fortify our own borders of course, but removing our presence in other countries will lower costs. Leave the UN and all adjoining operations. Boot the UN out of the US, and close all US embassies. We would no longer need to pay for staff for those places nor for the ambassadors. Remove the federal income tax, and place a federal sales tax in its place. Increase tariffs on products coming into this country on products made by companies who moved outside the country to make products. Nationalize and take over all property within the US owned by foreign companies and sell them to US companies. Reduce our nation from 50 states, to 13 provinces with 50 counties within each state. Only have 100 representatives, still based on population, and only 26 senators representing the provinces. Force all US held territories to be either free as independent nations or become part of the provincial system.

 

[I want teh kotor 3]

Or we could just can the income tax, put in place a sales tax, and axe all non-essential government functions.

[Killian Kalthorne]

That is what I said, along with reducing the size of Congress. Its not like we need 500 politicians doing practically nothing.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Killian Kalthorne

[I want teh kotor 3]

True, but some of your stuff seemed rather drastic. Like nationalizing foreign holdings. That's a little extreme. I see what you're aiming at, but that seems like too much of a governmental expansion to me. Also, you left intact some rather useless government branches, like the Division of Parks or whatever in the hell its called.

[jaguars4ever]

Sure, you diss the Division of Parks now. But after it's gone and theft of picnic baskets skyrockets overnight, you'll come crawling back.

[lord of flies]

Income tax is 100% better than sales tax, sorry. Sales tax disproportionately effect the poor, whereas (when used properly) income tax disproportionately taxes the rich (but doesn't effect them as much, because the difference in quality of life between 2 million a year and 1 million a year is much less than the difference between 20 thousand and 10 thousand).

 

Why do we leave the UN and close all our embassies? That doesn't help with our taxes, those are tiny expenses in comparison to the massive military-industrial complex we've got going. It will actually hurt us since trade relations will become strained.

[I want teh kotor 3]

Right. Countries are definitely going to stop trading with the richest nation in the world because we leave the UN. Because the UN is worth losing their economy over.

[lord of flies]

Right. Countries are definitely going to stop trading with the richest nation in the world because we leave the UN. Because the UN is worth losing their economy over.

If we close down all our embassies, how are we going to negotiate trade agreements with other nations? Think. Edited February 25, 2010 by lord of flies

[Killian Kalthorne]

Who says we negotiate. We set the rules and if they don't like it they can bugger off. The world needs the US more than the US needs the world.

 

As for the sales tax I would implement a scalable system.

 

Under $100 : 5%

$101 - $1000: 10%

$1001 - $10000: 15%

$10001 - $50000: 20%

$50001 - $100000: 25%

$100001 and above: 30%

 

This tax would only apply to consumer goods, services, and prepared foods (computer games, movies, candy bars, eating at McDonald's). It would not apply to basic food supplies, land property, and necessities (milk, meats, soap, a house or other building, and the like).

 

It makes more sense to tax on things we buy than tax the income we make, because we are a consumer based society. By taxing based on sales the government can get a constant stream of money, promote saving money, and allow us to get rid of the I.R.S.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Killian Kalthorne

[Wrath of Dagon]

Your plan has more loopholes than a thing with a whole bunch of loopholes.

 

What's needed is something that's politically possible. As nothing reasonable is politically possible, Stockman is right that we're doomed.

[Tigranes]

Funny stuff.

[Walsingham]

There are a number of things we can do to cut government spending. First close all military bases in all foreign countries and bring all our troops home. Fortify our own borders of course, but removing our presence in other countries will lower costs. Leave the UN and all adjoining operations. Boot the UN out of the US, and close all US embassies. We would no longer need to pay for staff for those places nor for the ambassadors. Remove the federal income tax, and place a federal sales tax in its place. Increase tariffs on products coming into this country on products made by companies who moved outside the country to make products. Nationalize and take over all property within the US owned by foreign companies and sell them to US companies. Reduce our nation from 50 states, to 13 provinces with 50 counties within each state. Only have 100 representatives, still based on population, and only 26 senators representing the provinces. Force all US held territories to be either free as independent nations or become part of the provincial system.

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a fething nutter.

 

On the one hand, Sando here would have us abandon the diplomatic service entirely, to be replaced with fixed rules, which I think could be guaranteed to leave the US without friends in a year. Nationalising and giving foreign corporations to local corporations would of course provoke further bad feeling and might, you know, lead to the inverse being applied abroad with apocalyptic results for teh US economy. Although of course, sales tax going up would mean the poorest people would already be gut-punched like a fat bad guy. Finally, having lost all its friends, the withdrawal of US forces would lead to all remaining dependants and immediate wars breaking out all over. Wars which the 19th century and wholly discredited tactic of static defence would be incapable of keeping away from US territory.

 

 

This is by far and away, and without a shadow of doubt the most contemptible political manifesto I have ever read. And I include that of Onur the Courageous in my assessment.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a fething nutter.

 

On the one hand, Sando here would have us abandon the diplomatic service entirely, to be replaced with fixed rules, which I think could be guaranteed to leave the US without friends in a year. Nationalising and giving foreign corporations to local corporations would of course provoke further bad feeling and might, you know, lead to the inverse being applied abroad with apocalyptic results for teh US economy. Although of course, sales tax going up would mean the poorest people would already be gut-punched like a fat bad guy. Finally, having lost all its friends, the withdrawal of US forces would lead to all remaining dependants and immediate wars breaking out all over. Wars which the 19th century and wholly discredited tactic of static defence would be incapable of keeping away from US territory.

 

 

This is by far and away, and without a shadow of doubt the most contemptible political manifesto I have ever read. And I include that of Onur the Courageous in my assessment.

 

You do know I was joking, right? Hence the smiley.

 

Except for the taxes part. If a poor person can afford to by a XBox 360 game then he or she can afford an extra 5% sales tax, especially with no taxes being taken out of their paycheck.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Killian Kalthorne

[Walsingham]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a fething nutter.

 

On the one hand, Sando here would have us abandon the diplomatic service entirely, to be replaced with fixed rules, which I think could be guaranteed to leave the US without friends in a year. Nationalising and giving foreign corporations to local corporations would of course provoke further bad feeling and might, you know, lead to the inverse being applied abroad with apocalyptic results for teh US economy. Although of course, sales tax going up would mean the poorest people would already be gut-punched like a fat bad guy. Finally, having lost all its friends, the withdrawal of US forces would lead to all remaining dependants and immediate wars breaking out all over. Wars which the 19th century and wholly discredited tactic of static defence would be incapable of keeping away from US territory.

 

 

This is by far and away, and without a shadow of doubt the most contemptible political manifesto I have ever read. And I include that of Onur the Courageous in my assessment.

 

You do know I was joking, right? Hence the smiley.

 

Except for the taxes part. If a poor person can afford to by a XBox 360 game then he or she can afford an extra 5% sales tax, especially with no taxes being taken out of their paycheck.

 

Sorry. It's LoF's fault for making me believe people can be completely barking mental. I apologise.

[Enoch]

At the risk of derailing the discussion into a whole different kind of flamewar, the ugliness long-range projections are driven primarily by projected increases in healthcare costs . Science keeps coming up with ways to keep 80-year-olds alive to see 81, at astounding costs, and, as a society, we haven't come up with a good way to say "no, it's time for Grandma to go." America spends 16% of its entire gross domestic product on healthcare costs of some kind (by comparison, most other developed nations are in the 8-11% range), and, although a lot of that is necessary to keep the economically productive part of the country going, the fastest growing portion is elder care, which, from a purely economic point of view, has a rather small benefit accruing to the society as a whole. (My favorite "it'll never happen, but would work pretty well if it did" thought experiment: Take the Medicare statute and change "over 65" to "under 65"-- insure the health of the younger, economically productive population and make treatment beyond that point a luxury expense.) I've been lukewarm on the current attempts at reform because, although I recognize that the present system is unteneble, I am not convinced that the cost containment efforts it includes are adequate.

 

 

In a more general sense, federal fiscal problems are the sort of problem that American democracy is structurally very poor at addressing. It affects everyone a little bit, but is the first concern of only a few voters. With single-member districts in winner-take-all plurality elections, voters' 3rd priorities just don't get expressed. And, although some like to talk a big game (mostly on the GOP side), once in power the incentive to actually roll back spending is very low. (Indeed, the biggest increase in future-year government liabilities in the last several decades was the Medicare prescription drug benefit that the Bush administration championed.) Throw in the ridiculousness of the Senate-- where people representing only 12% of the U.S. population can stop pretty much anything from happening-- and any existing program that is only a little bit popular is probably going to be sticking around for a long time, and raising taxes to pay for it is very very hard to do.

 

The general post-WW2 American setup of a government that is around 30-35% of GDP is, I think, a good model. Lower taxes and a freer business environment than Europe and the other Western powers, generally, but still a solid G presence, providing those services that government can do better/fairer than the private sector for a variety of market-failure related reasons. But there is clearly some work needed to undo some of the calcification of interests that have built up over the years. And to address what the last generation of poor financial and governmental leadership has done do the nation's banking system, but that's another rant entirely.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Mostly I agree with you, except I'll point out you only need 51 votes for budgetary matters in the Senate. Of course you'd still have to find 51 sane people in the Senate.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Sorry. It's LoF's fault for making me believe people can be completely barking mental. I apologise.

 

That is twice I've gotten you. You're slipping, Walsh.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Killian Kalthorne

[Rostere]

It seems in the US, people don't want to pay any taxes but still elect leaders which wage expensive wars and/or employ expensive protectionist policies to support obsolete industries. Obviously, that system is going to crash somehow.

[Humodour]

If there have to be more taxes, I'd rather see a broadbased income tax hike. A VAT will just open a new revenue stream to grow the government, pretty soon it'll be 15%, and then 25%.

 

Examples? Australia's GST hasn't budged from 10% since its inception by the conservative government in 2000 or so.

 

And IIRC, other countries with VAT-like taxes also have it at about 10%. I've never seen 15% or above.

 

America needs higher taxes, but the problems with America's economy as so insipid I doubt that would be enough. A slow-motion train crash. Ok maybe that's a bit dramatic, but it's true for your dollar at least.

[Pidesco]

VAT in Europe.

[Gorth]

VAT in Europe.

You know, that one should really be in spoiler tags with a health warning. If Americans click on it, they'll have cardiac arrests, seizures, whatever