Dragon Age discussion

[Volourn]

"If I was willing to throw away health poultices I could have killed the dragon on my own which makes no sense... at all. Not much of an achievement. "

 

Been there. Done that. In BG2. *shrug*

 

 

"Mages are definitely overpowered."

 

Nope. Not overpwoered. powered just right. Mages should be wickedly awesome. That's why it's called magic. This is soemthing D&D got right, and since the goal for DA combat to be like D&D, it's the way it should be.

[Monte Carlo]

It's pointless arguing about balance with Vol.

 

Because DA does have a definite balance problem with mages... it's all pro and no cons. That you can make a pure melee mage adds insult to injury, ditto consequence free Lyrium-chugging. Balance demands that for these benefits you pay a couple of hindrances. In D&D it's glass cannon syndrome with mages --- great magic but mucho fragility.

 

In Company of Heroes the glass cannon is the Sherman Firefly tank. It has the best Allied AT gun in the game. You hear the gun going off as a German player and you crap yourself because two or three of them can make scrap metal of your tanks... but they are fragile. Average AT infantry can eat them for breakfast. You have to protect them with infantry and other armour, spot for them and think. In other words, they are a balanced unit to be used judiciously.

 

DA abandons this completely with the mage class, which is why I only have one in my party. Two and it becomes a screen-saver, just like CoH would with up-armoured Sherman Fireflies.

 

Cheers

MC

[RPGmasterBoo]

I've never mage-killed Flemeth. I usually have Alistair and Shayle (I mean, look at his hps!) beat on the front of her while my rogue backstabs until she either stamps us all to the ground, or tail-bats my rogue halfway across the map. Then we hop up, chug-a-lug healing potions while Wynne chug-a-lugs lyrium. Rinse and repeat. Rogue backstabs take her down incredibly fast, if one has a pair of top quality, rune-enhanced daggers. My rogue nearly always lands the killing blow.

 

I should make a group that can cast STorm of the Century. I've never seen it, because my mages ignore electrical altogether. Looks like I'm missing out...

 

Storm is obscenely powerful. It deals roughly 80 dmg (lvl15mage) per every few seconds and lasts as long as blizzard/lightning storm. The only problem is the huge radius which on some of the cramped maps can kill your entire party in seconds. I didn't know how big it would be the first time around and went straight to the loading screen.

 

I killed the Dwarven thug boss Jarvia and everyone else in that room by standing near the door and casting it in the middle.

 

It's pointless arguing about balance with Vol.

 

Good thing I wasn't. Its just a one way affair on his side.

 

 

 

The predictability of the AI is troublesome. At least when playing as a mage with a high damage output. Every battle looks the same. I throw a spell, everyone starts chasing me and ignoring the others. I run around positioning for cone type spells, throw some single spells, chug a potion... Since none of the enemies require a particular, exclusive strategy its always like this whether I'm fighting dwarves, werewolves, cultists etc.

 

There's some comedy here as well. The high priest in the temple chased me exclusively and was killed because I ran in circles while the others pelted him with arrows/staves etc. Since there are no penalties for moving in the combat area....

[HoonDing]

There's some comedy here as well. The high priest in the temple chased me exclusively and was killed because I ran in circles while the others pelted him with arrows/staves etc.

Proof enough that it is the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. Benny Hill tactics were the only way I ever beat Sarevok.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Lol, yeah me too.

 

I have fond memories of charging straight into him with my fighters, only to watch the game over screen seconds later.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Finished the Redcliffe quest. That was so far the best paced and most interesting one in the game, at least the parts in the village and castle. Unlike the overlong excursion to the Fade in the Circle this one was nice, short and to the point. I intimidated the demon into giving me a point to spend on my abilities

 

I've only the deep roads left until Landsmeet.

[Guest Slinky]

I've only the deep roads left until Landsmeet.

Mistake..

 

I did the same thing, and I'm still surprised I managed to force myself to play the game to the end. Have fun in grind hell

[RPGmasterBoo]

I've only the deep roads left until Landsmeet.

Mistake..

 

I did the same thing, and I'm still surprised I managed to force myself to play the game to the end. Have fun in grind hell

 

I figured out what's so jarring about DA combat.

Okay, there are the annoying and unavoidable grind filled areas: haven/temple, werewolf lair, blood mage hideout in Denerim, the Carta hideout in Orzammar etc. but that's not all there is to it.

 

Playing BGII at the same time I've noticed that the biggest difference is in length of encounters with average/weaker enemies. In BGII combat is in general much quicker, barring boss fights.

There are practically no enemies you can pulverize your way through in DA, since they are all scaled to a similar level of challenge. The average wolf takes almost as much time to kill in the middle of the game as it did at the beginning which not only doesn't make you feel very badass - it can also get tedious.

 

Its not a huge difference, but it adds up over time. I in general play DA for about two hours then I have to take a break because it drains my concentration and tires me out.

 

This is the result of unnecessarily splitting the main quest into 4 areas. If it were more linear (with pauses for free roaming), the enemies could have been much better dosed and there would have been less need for scaling. Sometimes you want the next thing around the corner to be a pack of goblins you can crush in ten seconds, not an enemy that forces you to fight equally each time. In DA that doesn't happen, all of the (white and yellow) enemies are equally difficult with the occasional miniboss to spice things up.

Edited February 20, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Guest Slinky]

Yup, that pretty much sums it up.

 

Good for people who play the game for the party based combat, but woe for the rest. I still wonder why Bio needed 6 years for a long grind tunnel.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Its just a mistake in DA's design. If they made the main quest hubs linear (like a progressive journey), with the ability to roam around at the end of each hub it would have been much more palatable.

 

The illusion of choice in picking a hub, (since you have to visit them all anyway) comes at too high a cost gameplay wise.

[Guest Slinky]

You know, I don't think it's a mistake in DA's design, I think they wanted to do it.

 

Every hub is the same: first there's the area where you can talk and pick up the main quest, and then you proceed to the long "combat tunnel" that lasts for ages without anything different during it to brake the grind. I refuse to believe Bio did that without noticing something is wrong, no, the game is most likely just what they wanted to make. And many people seem to love it.

[RPGmasterBoo]

You know, I don't think it's a mistake in DA's design, I think they wanted to do it.

 

Every hub is the same: first there's the area where you can talk and pick up the main quest, and then you proceed to the long "combat tunnel" that lasts for ages without anything different during it to brake the grind. I refuse to believe Bio did that without noticing something is wrong, no, the game is most likely just what they wanted to make. And many people seem to love it.

 

I can see why the deep roads were a nightmare for you. I'm strolling through them with no effort at all because I use one single tactic. Cast earthquake on enemies in front of you (you can see them before they can see you in third person view), follow up with Blizzard + Lightning storm = Storm of the Century. Nothing survives. Also you don't have to even cast Blizzard on enemies exactly because when SoC starts the radius significantly expands, and if you damage just one creature all the rest charge right after you - into the storm.

 

I've killed everything by following this tactic, rarely getting touched at all.

 

If I had to go through all of them with a fighter however... ugh... That would not be easy.

[Guest Slinky]

If I had to go through all of them with a fighter however... ugh... That would not be easy.

Not to mention BOOORRRIIIINNGGGG

 

Meh, I guess DA just isn't my cup of tea. Too much combat and no rest makes DD a dull boy.

[Monte Carlo]

^ No, actually it isn't boring without a mage... it's an entirely different game.

 

I played about 75% of my third playthrough without a mage... 2 x tank, 1 x melee rogue, 1 x archer (PC DW rogue, Alistair, Sten, Leliana).

 

It was a lot of fun, the PC was a trap / bomb / backstab maestro, Al as meatshield, Sten as damage supremo and Leliana as all-round AK47 goddess. Some of the boss monsters were a pain, but it wasn't boring at all.

[Guest Slinky]

^ No, actually it isn't boring without a mage... it's an entirely different game.

 

I played about 75% of my third playthrough without a mage... 2 x tank, 1 x melee rogue, 1 x archer (PC DW rogue, Alistair, Sten, Leliana).

 

It was a lot of fun, the PC was a trap / bomb / backstab maestro, Al as meatshield, Sten as damage supremo and Leliana as all-round AK47 goddess. Some of the boss monsters were a pain, but it wasn't boring at all.

Yes, well, I quote myself:

 

Good for people who play the game for the party based combat, but woe for the rest.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I wouldn't exactly call it fun that my PC kills all the enemies before they lift a finger but okay. I wouldn't trade it for struggling with fighters and rogues though.

 

Purple raaaaain:

 

Why does the minimap show me enemies I don't actually see??

Edited February 20, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[HoonDing]

Sword & shield is very boring & pretty underwhelming, since defense totally trumps armour in the game, but two-handed & dual-wielding warriors are reasonably fun to play. Also doesn't require much micromanagement, unlike melee rogues.

[Sannom]

Playing BGII at the same time I've noticed that the biggest difference is in length of encounters with average/weaker enemies. In BGII combat is in general much quicker, barring boss fights.

There are practically no enemies you can pulverize your way through in DA, since they are all scaled to a similar level of challenge. The average wolf takes almost as much time to kill in the middle of the game as it did at the beginning which not only doesn't make you feel very badass - it can also get tedious.

 

Its not a huge difference, but it adds up over time. I in general play DA for about two hours then I have to take a break because it drains my concentration and tires me out.

 

This is the result of unnecessarily splitting the main quest into 4 areas. If it were more linear (with pauses for free roaming), the enemies could have been much better dosed and there would have been less need for scaling. Sometimes you want the next thing around the corner to be a pack of goblins you can crush in ten seconds, not an enemy that forces you to fight equally each time. In DA that doesn't happen, all of the (white and yellow) enemies are equally difficult with the occasional miniboss to spice things up.

 

Yeah, in BG2, if your party is reasonably buffed-up (Haste is the most common) you can go through the groups of weaker enemies with not too much effort. The fact that you have to spend 20 minutes on every group of darkspawns or guards is not a good challenge, it's boring and tedious! For me, one of the issues is the fact that you can only bring four people with you, which reduces a lot the number of archers you can have. Those are great against the mooks! And archery really became useless in D&D games (an example) when there wasn't enough room in the party to bring at least two or three long-distance fighters.

 

Yeah, the "hub" kind of design is really something I dislike, although I really came to that conclusion with DA and Prince of Persia : it f**ks up the difficulty curve and make every area more of the same! I really preferred the BG2 system, a really linear main quest with a huge chapter that was dedicated to side quests of different difficulty where the party would make most of the leveling up and looting of the game, although the next, more linear and "urgent" chapter would still have their share of challenge and loot.

 

You know, I don't think it's a mistake in DA's design, I think they wanted to do it.

 

Every hub is the same: first there's the area where you can talk and pick up the main quest, and then you proceed to the long "combat tunnel" that lasts for ages without anything different during it to brake the grind. I refuse to believe Bio did that without noticing something is wrong, no, the game is most likely just what they wanted to make. And many people seem to love it.

 

You're right, the only big mistake in DA's design is the fact that lock-picking is a talent and not a skill. This is so incoherent with the rest of the gameplay that I think it was put there just so that gamers would take a rogue.

 

Still, the design they went with, I'm really starting to dislike! Level-scaling is bad whatever the game, and free-roaming is only good in big open-worlds like Morrowind, where the main quest is still completely linear.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Yeah, the "hub" kind of design is really something I dislike, although I really came to that conclusion with DA and Prince of Persia : it f**ks up the difficulty curve and make every area more of the same! I really preferred the BG2 system, a really linear main quest with a huge chapter that was dedicated to side quests of different difficulty where the party would make most of the leveling up and looting of the game, although the next, more linear and "urgent" chapter would still have their share of challenge and loot.

 

Yes I liked the possibility of getting into encounters that could be simply beyond your power or really easy ones that you could punch through.

 

As for much harder encounters I've only seen two so far in DA, the defense of Redcliffe and Flemeth - and there are no easy ones at all.

[Monte Carlo]

Until the very end DA robs you (robs I say!) of the sublime feeling of hitting level 19 and mowing through swarms of mooks like a tsunami of death.

 

And when DA does give you that opportunity, it feels cheesy and contrived.

 

I don't like the levelling either.

 

Cheers

MC

[HoonDing]

Yes I liked the possibility of getting into encounters that could be simply beyond your power or really easy ones that you could punch through.

 

As for much harder encounters I've only seen two so far in DA, the defense of Redcliffe and Flemeth - and there are no easy ones at all.

How did you find the Denerim bandit encounters?

[RPGmasterBoo]

Yes I liked the possibility of getting into encounters that could be simply beyond your power or really easy ones that you could punch through.

 

As for much harder encounters I've only seen two so far in DA, the defense of Redcliffe and Flemeth - and there are no easy ones at all.

How did you find the Denerim bandit encounters?

 

Annoying. Same as all other mook encounters. One was a bit harder than the others, but I could neither mow through them nor need to include any particular strategy.

I couldn't mow through them because the archers kept attacking my PC.

Edited February 20, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Spider]

Why does the minimap show me enemies I don't actually see??

 

I think that's your grey warden taint. The whole darkspawn-sense.

[Nepenthe]

Why does the minimap show me enemies I don't actually see??

 

I think that's your grey warden taint. The whole darkspawn-sense.

 

Or the Survival skill.

[Volourn]

So, proof positive, people want easy combat they can walk over. BIO should just have preated kobol encounetrs over and over again. L0L Quite frankyl, the fact you have to approach most ecnocunters with care and now just run them over like a tank squashing an individual person, is a good thing.

 

I could literally go hours in BG series just mass meleeing enemies including with the mage using no planning, strategy or tatics at all.. How is that better combat design? L0L

Edited February 20, 2010 by Volourn