FO:NV: The Return of Gameplay Mechanics Discussion

[Oner]

Nah, Pancor Jackhammer is where it's at. He is like a lion, ruling over the jungle while napping on Pride Rock.

 

And the Gauss Rifle is Jesus.

[fastpunk]

Grenade launcher from Terminator 2 in FO:NV please.

Best T2 weapon is clearly the Winchester 1887.

 

http://media.photobucket.com/image/termina...ortyWin1887.jpg

 

You are wrong, sir. The best weapon in T2 is clearly Sarah's modded Remington 870:

 

 

 

 

The one-armed shotgun action, when she pumps the T-1000 full of holes, is da sh*t!

[jero cvmi]

So, if a teaser trailer cannot be viewed by any of the people who it aims to tease, does it exist?

 

A philosophical question.

[bhlaab]

As far as creatures go, I've always thought a big part of RPGs should be when you can get over that peak and start being able to kill humans without them just tearing you apart. I'm always a little disappointed when you can take care of people right from the start. It's like, come on, I should have to work for this!

 

I don't mean start me off in Rat Town killing rats for 3 hours, but I should NEED good armor and a decent weapon (or a high skill level with a bad weapon) to be able to take on the most dangerous prey of all.

 

Speaking of which, in Fallout 3 I got the combat shotgun from moira like 1 hour in. That's ridiculous considering how overpowered it is!

Edited January 12, 2010 by bhlaab

[Hurlshort]

I agree with Bhlaab, it was a bit odd how I could take out security forces easily right at the start of Fallout 3. I found the Raiders a bit harder at the start though.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I agree with Bhlaab, it was a bit odd how I could take out security forces easily right at the start of Fallout 3. I found the Raiders a bit harder at the start though.

I blame that on the fact raiders carried gattling guns and rocket launchers while you had a 10mm pistol and a baseball bat.

[bhlaab]

I agree with Bhlaab, it was a bit odd how I could take out security forces easily right at the start of Fallout 3. I found the Raiders a bit harder at the start though.

I blame that on the fact raiders carried gattling guns and rocket launchers while you had a 10mm pistol and a baseball bat.

 

 

Yeah that too. Weird spike. Because that means as soon as you kill one of those raiders you get a gatling gun and/or a rocket launcher. There should be a heirarchy you work your way up.

[Pop]

Not necessarily. One of the things about SPECIAL was that in terms of fighter builds the only really good one for the beginning and middle of the games was a Small Guns build. Every other build - big guns, energy weapons, melee, unarmed - paled in terms of efficacy because they all either had only top-quality high-power weapons (big / energy), or there was no sensible progression in power from weak to potent (unarmed / melee) Up until the point where the higher-tier weapons were introduced (all big guns and energy weapons, super sledge, power fist) Small Guns were much better than any other weapons skill, at which point there was either an abrupt leveling off or even a massive jump in efficacy that made other builds even more effective than Small Guns (energy and melee builds specifically)

 

Breaking that pattern with Energy Weapons was rather easy, since even in the original Fallouts laser weapons and pistols in particular were pretty weak, so in Fallout 3 they did an admirable job of positing energy weapons as a viable alternative to small guns by introducing laser pistols very early. Big guns by their very nature are much harder to balance, but they had to include something. The Rock-it Launcher was actually a pretty good idea in terms of introducing a Big Gun that wasn't super-powerful at the beginning of the game (really, what Big Guns needed was a single-shot weapon that wasn't explosive), but it takes a lot of hoop-jumping to get.

 

All of this was the reason why Sawyer saw fit to condense gun skills in SIMPLE. I'm wondering what they'll do in NV.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Pop

[RPGmasterBoo]

I have a suggestion for a weapon easter egg.

 

1. The pulse rifle from the Aliens universe.

2. Deckards blaster from Blade Runner.

Edited January 12, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Meshugger]

Do we even have enough material for a FAQ yet?

Edited January 12, 2010 by Meshugger

[Pop]

I'm actually hoping they keep the easter eggs to a minimum with this game, or at least, if they have easter eggs they shouldn't be things you actually use but things that are just in the world somewhere, like some of the impromptu object sculptures in Fallout 3.

 

If they're going to include a hidden weapon it'll have to be the gristle gun.

[Starwars]

I think the effort to balance the weapons in Fallout 3 is admirable because, yeah, it really was unbalanced in the other games.

 

But I think it also leads to other problems, which works in tandem with how they made the Repair skill work. The game world is pretty lousy with weapons, even more advanced stuff like Laser Rifles aren't hard to find at all. Plasma rifles are rarer though. Now, I'm a fan of the weapon degradation mechanic and I think it fits in well. But I think I'd rather see a system where A) you used more standardized "parts" that fit into different sorts of gun. This could reduce the number of weapons just lying around in the gameworld where they would've very likely been looted away. And while the "parts" items could potentially viewed as too much of a valuable resource to be found in the wasteland, a guy would need a high Repair skill in order to make use of them. Random Wastelander Joe Schmoe wouldn't have the know-how to make use of them.

I think it would've felt a bit more natural like that, where the actual weapons are fairly rare.

 

And B) I really think the degradation should do more harm when it's getting lower.

 

EDIT: There is also the problem of the player character being able to use every weapon in quite a useful way, despite really low skills with it. The last guy I played had no energy weapon skill at all except the default values, and I quite honestly didn't see that much of a difference in difficulty using a Laser Rifle than I did using small guns (which I had invested in). And while it may make sense that anyone should be able to pick up a Fat Man and fire it (depending on how it's designed) it just feels so wrong because it is a weapon of mass destruction no matter *what* your skills are. It would feel much better in my opinion if something powerful like that was only usable (or at least be effective) for the people who really pushes for a single skill. Reward specialization in the skills.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Starwars

[Slowtrain]

I think the effort to balance the weapons in Fallout 3 is admirable because, yeah, it really was unbalanced in the other games.

 

But I think it also leads to other problems, which works in tandem with how they made the Repair skill work. The game world is pretty lousy with weapons, even more advanced stuff like Laser Rifles aren't hard to find at all. Plasma rifles are rarer though. Now, I'm a fan of the weapon degradation mechanic and I think it fits in well. But I think I'd rather see a system where A) you used more standardized "parts" that fit into different sorts of gun. This could reduce the number of weapons just lying around in the gameworld where they would've very likely been looted away. And while the "parts" items could potentially viewed as too much of a valuable resource to be found in the wasteland, a guy would need a high Repair skill in order to make use of them. Random Wastelander Joe Schmoe wouldn't have the know-how to make use of them.

I think it would've felt a bit more natural like that, where the actual weapons are fairly rare.

 

And B) I really think the degradation should do more harm when it's getting lower.

 

EDIT: There is also the problem of the player character being able to use every weapon in quite a useful way, despite really low skills with it. The last guy I played had no energy weapon skill at all except the default values, and I quite honestly didn't see that much of a difference in difficulty using a Laser Rifle than I did using small guns (which I had invested in). And while it may make sense that anyone should be able to pick up a Fat Man and fire it (depending on how it's designed) it just feels so wrong because it is a weapon of mass destruction no matter *what* your skills are. It would feel much better in my opinion if something powerful like that was only usable (or at least be effective) for the people who really pushes for a single skill. Reward specialization in the skills.

 

 

The entire weapon balance thing could have been done much better simply by doing what Deus Ex did: making the pc skill have a really profound effect on weapon effectiveness. In other words, even if a level 1 pc has a plasma rifle or the Blackhawk, their crappy 25 weapon skill means the weapon wil still be nigh useless.

 

If you recall Deus Ex handed you most of the best weapons in the game on the FIRST LEVEL in the FIRST CONVERSATION, and gave you the last couple on the next level with one exception. But you didn't have the skills to make them uber so it didn't matter. COnversely, if you built your pistol skill to master level you could go through the whole game with nothing but the basic 10mm handgun.

 

 

Fallout 3 skills were a) too easy to raise and b) didn't have nearly enough effect on the ability to use weapons.

[Pop]

By contrast to all of that, the Dragon's Tooth pretty much owns the game as soon as you get it, no matter your build.

[Slowtrain]

By contrast to all of that, the Dragon's Tooth pretty much owns the game as soon as you get it, no matter your build.

 

 

Good point, I had forgotten about that one. A little unbalanced there, especially given how easy it is to stealth up behind people and whack them with it.

[jaguars4ever]

Deus Ex > FO3

 

[/thread]

[Pop]

I think the effort to balance the weapons in Fallout 3 is admirable because, yeah, it really was unbalanced in the other games.

 

But I think it also leads to other problems, which works in tandem with how they made the Repair skill work. The game world is pretty lousy with weapons, even more advanced stuff like Laser Rifles aren't hard to find at all. Plasma rifles are rarer though. Now, I'm a fan of the weapon degradation mechanic and I think it fits in well. But I think I'd rather see a system where A) you used more standardized "parts" that fit into different sorts of gun. This could reduce the number of weapons just lying around in the gameworld where they would've very likely been looted away. And while the "parts" items could potentially viewed as too much of a valuable resource to be found in the wasteland, a guy would need a high Repair skill in order to make use of them. Random Wastelander Joe Schmoe wouldn't have the know-how to make use of them.

I think it would've felt a bit more natural like that, where the actual weapons are fairly rare.

 

And B) I really think the degradation should do more harm when it's getting lower.

 

EDIT: There is also the problem of the player character being able to use every weapon in quite a useful way, despite really low skills with it. The last guy I played had no energy weapon skill at all except the default values, and I quite honestly didn't see that much of a difference in difficulty using a Laser Rifle than I did using small guns (which I had invested in). And while it may make sense that anyone should be able to pick up a Fat Man and fire it (depending on how it's designed) it just feels so wrong because it is a weapon of mass destruction no matter *what* your skills are. It would feel much better in my opinion if something powerful like that was only usable (or at least be effective) for the people who really pushes for a single skill. Reward specialization in the skills.

I'd agree with that, and I'm wondering how they'll change repair in NV. Where I think Bethsoft really dropped the ball was in normalizing merchant repair skills across the board. I think that your proposed system could really work - the CRAFT mod (I think that was it) addressed it pretty well. You could repair guns with other similar guns, but there were also misc. items that counted as repair parts (wonderglue for leather armor and clothing, abraxo cleaner for firearms, etc.) and you could create all-purpose "repair parts" at a workbench. Where I think they (or Obsidz) could take it a step further is by making the use of repair parts restricted to relatively skilled Repair Boys and merchants (you give the merchant the repair part, they apply it with variant degrees of efficacy, for a fee) The problem with this is that it's a little complicated for new users, and it'll be difficult to properly convey at what point a Repair Boy can do it all himself. As usual, balance solutions invite yet more balance problems.

[Starwars]

I think the effort to balance the weapons in Fallout 3 is admirable because, yeah, it really was unbalanced in the other games.

 

But I think it also leads to other problems, which works in tandem with how they made the Repair skill work. The game world is pretty lousy with weapons, even more advanced stuff like Laser Rifles aren't hard to find at all. Plasma rifles are rarer though. Now, I'm a fan of the weapon degradation mechanic and I think it fits in well. But I think I'd rather see a system where A) you used more standardized "parts" that fit into different sorts of gun. This could reduce the number of weapons just lying around in the gameworld where they would've very likely been looted away. And while the "parts" items could potentially viewed as too much of a valuable resource to be found in the wasteland, a guy would need a high Repair skill in order to make use of them. Random Wastelander Joe Schmoe wouldn't have the know-how to make use of them.

I think it would've felt a bit more natural like that, where the actual weapons are fairly rare.

 

And B) I really think the degradation should do more harm when it's getting lower.

 

EDIT: There is also the problem of the player character being able to use every weapon in quite a useful way, despite really low skills with it. The last guy I played had no energy weapon skill at all except the default values, and I quite honestly didn't see that much of a difference in difficulty using a Laser Rifle than I did using small guns (which I had invested in). And while it may make sense that anyone should be able to pick up a Fat Man and fire it (depending on how it's designed) it just feels so wrong because it is a weapon of mass destruction no matter *what* your skills are. It would feel much better in my opinion if something powerful like that was only usable (or at least be effective) for the people who really pushes for a single skill. Reward specialization in the skills.

 

 

The entire weapon balance thing could have been done much better simply by doing what Deus Ex did: making the pc skill have a really profound effect on weapon effectiveness. In other words, even if a level 1 pc has a plasma rifle or the Blackhawk, their crappy 25 weapon skill means the weapon wil still be nigh useless.

 

If you recall Deus Ex handed you most of the best weapons in the game on the FIRST LEVEL in the FIRST CONVERSATION, and gave you the last couple on the next level with one exception. But you didn't have the skills to make them uber so it didn't matter. COnversely, if you built your pistol skill to master level you could go through the whole game with nothing but the basic 10mm handgun.

 

Fallout 3 skills were a) too easy to raise and b) didn't have nearly enough effect on the ability to use weapons.

 

 

I agree with what you say here, but you'd still have the 'millions of guns littering the wasteland' syndrome. I mean, it's been 200 years (200! A long time) since the bombs fell in Fallout 3, and the Capital Wasteland is populated with a fair number of people and many of them are quite capable. The amount of resources all around that are just there for the taking is ridiculous.

[Pop]

I don't know, I mean Fallouts 1 and 2, with their random encounters, were in no way hurting for firearms of any sort. It was Van Buren that was supposed to introduce scarcity.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I'd like to tackle the base issue.

 

I don't know if there is a base/hideout for the PC in the game, but I've always liked the idea. Many games today use it though few do so in a really cool manner.

 

Now what would make sense as a base in the Fallout universe?

 

1. A vehicle? That would be suited to the nomadic nature of post apocalyptic life. A problem arises with fuel and the fact that it (following the logic of Fallout) should get stolen quickly, since its so uncommon. Guess that one wont work.

 

2. An abandoned building? So what did we have in Fallout 1 and 2: villages, ruined cities, vaults, and army depos/bunkers. Given the scavenging nature of such life anything in the open doesn't make much sense, thus villages and cities are an unlikely choice. A vault would be too obvious, and given the nature of its contents too attractive to plunderers.

An army bunker or abandoned factory would make the most sense IMO, though thats not very original.

 

Now as to the contents:

(a wish list)

reminder: *must not fall prey to the cool sh!t syndrome*

 

*I'd like shelves to display items collected in the game and a functional weapons rack

*A bullet making machine (the kind you can buy to refill your ammo), that should work as a minigame of sorts

*Machinery that you have to find parts for across the wasteland and be rewarded with something, and it can go from trivial, such as fixing yourself a makeshift bar or alcohol distillery (perhaps to sell the booze) for novelty's sake or as complex as a working security system. (a movie projector would perhaps make sense, the kind you wind up with your hand - for the occasional movie reel of pre apocalypse life)

-perhaps if the animal companion is too much a bother to integrate into the gameplay it can hang around in the hideout to liven it up

-hell, perhaps you could put in a rudimentary plot of land for those that would play a farming minigame for some purpose (trade?)

-obviously a garage for a vehicle would be damn useful but I doubt there will be vehicles

...

I'll add more later.

 

GOD, NO WEAPON DEGRADATION, PLEASE.

Edited January 12, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[bhlaab]

Deus Ex > FO3

 

[/thread]

 

Ummmmmmmm, no ****?

[Starwars]

I don't know, I mean Fallouts 1 and 2, with their random encounters, were in no way hurting for firearms of any sort. It was Van Buren that was supposed to introduce scarcity.

 

Yeah, but the weapons were at least attached to people who took advantage of them. I understand that in order to create these games, there needs to be a fair amount of firearms in the gameworld. But at least don't make them just lying around, have them be in use.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Starwars

[mkreku]

I don't understand how even the most ignorant fan of the old Fallouts (or even Wasteland!) could argue about bad weapon balancing in Fallout 3. Sure, compared to a normal shooter, the balance is off (some pistols worse than the one you got coming out of the Vault etc.), but compared to the old games, it's a masterpiece.

 

Don't you all remember the huge leap in Wasteland/Fallout/Fallout 2 when you got your first automatic weapon? The games basically become a breeze after that.

 

Also, I am no proponent of strict weapon balancing on a universal scale. Every JRPG I've ever played has had that: you go from village to village and buy new equipment, one point stronger than the equipment you bought in your last village. Since Fallout is an open-ended world, I WANT to be able to throw balance out of order! If I manage to kill something way too big for my level, I expect the reward (weapons) to match my accomplishment. Otherwise we have a new Oblivion situation where every 100-gold-demanding robber is wearing Daedric armour (worth hundreds of thousands of gold) after a while.

[Slowtrain]

The amount of resources all around that are just there for the taking is ridiculous.

 

 

I totally agree in regards to Fallout 3, but it goes way beyond just firearms. Why are there thousands of stimpacks still in first aid boxes in supposedly looted buildings? There's way too much of everything scattered around the gameworld. It was obviously a design choice by Beth to do it that way rather than making items a resource issue. I think its a poor choice becuas it devalues the worth of everything in game: Stimpacks, for example, are so common they cease to have any value. A betre way to do it is to have stimpacks do a lot of healing, but be really rare and really expensive, therefore when you manage to get one or two it becomes a really big and awesome deal.

 

FO1/2 also suffered from this problem btw, just not quite to the same extent as FO3.

[cronicler]

I also like having a base. In my PnP campaign (that went fairly well for a year or so untill my players had serious scheduling problems and we had to call it "fin") I used a mobile home like thing. Imagine a traditional European gypsy caravan image and mate it with an all terrain truck (like construct).

 

If presented in a correct way; like with a long chain quests in the area after the initial introduction phase that gets you a basic truck, then upgrading it as you progress in the story with new parts like liquid storage tanks so you can carry water and gas you need to cross the desert to next story quest, a basic workbench, upgraded bench, Ham Radio to stay in contact, Sattalite dish, Lockers... A mobile base also allows foır a trading options (caravan trade) somewhat like the the poor SoZ tried.

 

The base would also allow you to collect NPCs of different flavor, no more partys of only combat monkeys; a mechanic (preferably redhead and female), A doctor (preferably with brown-black hair, russian accent and rolling "o"s in Laboorootooriyy, A witchdoctor (Preferably Cajun heritage) and other oddsa and mads

 

 

Then again I am pretty sure this is a bad pipe dream...