Mass Effect 2

[RPGmasterBoo]

didnt nwn oc come out before kotor? that wasnt the start of the fall?

Fall? LOL

 

Every subsequent Bio game since BG has been (more or less) an improvement over its predecessor.

 

 

If you're not Volo, how do you figure that?

 

I wouldn't let myself get drawn into it if I were you.

[Guest Slinky]

There's a new ME2 trailer out now.

 

 

I think I saw that in an old episode of Space Ghost.

Don't know about you guys, but I loved that trailer

 

If Shepard doesn't die for the sins of the humanity and rise up from he's grave to godhood in ME3, I'm disappointed

[Kaftan Barlast]

I just saw that ME2 has been released in a pirated version for the 360, so the net will be bursting with spoilers by the end of the day.

[jaguars4ever]

didnt nwn oc come out before kotor? that wasnt the start of the fall?

Fall? LOL

 

Every subsequent Bio game since BG has been (more or less) an improvement over its predecessor.

 

 

If you're not Volo, how do you figure that?

 

I wouldn't let myself get drawn into it if I were you.

The hell? Has Volo-Bashing become the new fad now? Stick to the topic...or b00bies. Boobies are nice too.

 

Anyway, for all its plaudits, BG was probably one of Bio

[RPGmasterBoo]

Its convenient to ignore BGII and focus on BG which as you well know is the one that started the entire trend.

 

Make no mistake, BG by itself is dated, but BG does not stand by itself. Its a part of a greater story and most of its value is today derived from there.

 

BG 1 aside, you'd have to really stretch your imagination to prove that there was any significant improvement over BGII.

 

There's no such thing as true role playing - there is only the feeling that your avatar is doing something significant, something that you would do, or can relate to (through illusion of choice), and the lack of that feeling.

For all the supposed improved role playing in the games after BGII, you'll be hard pressed to find people who would actually claim that they are better games.

 

Except for Volo.

 

Btw the BG saga also had 2 endings.

[Nepenthe]

I just got the mail that my pre-order of ME2 CE is going to be delayed "by about a week" due to a printing error with the collector's editions.

 

Considering that I just went through this with the PS3 CE of DAO, I'm now a) spitting mad b) convinced that lightning doesn't strike twice, and somebody actually is incompetent c) probably switching my preorder to a regular edition.

 

Hmpf.

[RPGmasterBoo]

The trailer is a great illustration of what I was talking about earlier:

 

It says, only Shepard stands between victory and defeat, yadayadayada only Shepard can save us...

 

How? Why? He's just a grunt amongst a million of grunts like him.

 

I understand the reasoning behind wanting the player to feel special, but you need some plausability. Right?

[Raithe]

The trailer is a great illustration of what I was talking about earlier:

 

It says, only Shepard stands between victory and defeat, yadayadayada only Shepard can save us...

 

How? Why? He's just a grunt amongst a million of grunts like him.

 

I understand the reasoning behind wanting the player to feel special, but you need some plausability. Right?

 

 

Technically , Shephard is meant to be a bit more then just a grunt.. Out of all the people who made up the Alliance forces, he was the person being considered for Spectre eligibility.. which (much as i know it was a nice in-game mechanic) is meant to highlight that he's an extremely capable Alliance officer.. Throw in whatever background you gave the character, he's had a lot more experience, he's supposd to be smart and flexible. Whether as the lone survivor of something that killed everyone else, or the hero of the skillian blitz..

 

All heroic character are supposed to have that something extra that makes them stand out beyond the norm, that's why they're heroes, and why they're central to the story. It might be a literary conceit, but it's also a kind of reasoning for why they end up being the only one who can save the day

[Guest Slinky]

Hmpf.

It's just a week. Besides, it looks like Bio is releasing the free DLC that includes the mako replacement hammerhead after ME2. Dunno how much after.

 

The trailer is a great illustration of what I was talking about earlier:

Are you still trying to take ME2 overly serious?

That's like trying to find logical storyline from 24. Doesn't still mean it can't be fun.

[jaguars4ever]

Its convenient to ignore BGII and focus on BG which as you well know is the one that started the entire trend.

 

Make no mistake, BG by itself is dated, but BG does not stand by itself. Its a part of a greater story and most of its value is today derived from there.

 

BG 1 aside, you'd have to really stretch your imagination to prove that there was any significant improvement over BGII.

 

There's no such thing as true role playing - there is only the feeling that your avatar is doing something significant, something that you would do, or can relate to (through illusion of choice), and the lack of that feeling.

For all the supposed improved role playing in the games after BGII, you'll be hard pressed to find people who would actually claim that they are better games.

 

Except for Volo.

 

Btw the BG saga also had 2 endings.

Oh, but I haven't ignored BG2. When I speak of BG, I'm speaking of the entire series unless specifically stated to be BG1 or BG2 otherwise. That being said, my criticisms still apply to BG2. I think it's you that'll be hard pressed to find many characters apart from Anomen or Viconia that aren't flat in the BG series. That's probably why Viccy is one of Bio's best NPCs of all time. But that's too little, too late, to redeem the BG series as a whole in terms of being a better role-playing experience than Bio's later releases. There IS such a thing as true role-playing at least in a game sense (though I'm not averse to it in a sexual sense with the right chick mind you ). But let's start with what true role-playing isn't. A game suddenly doesn't become a good role-playing experience simply because you can "stretch your imagination to believe it to be so". Otherwise, Tomb Raider would be the best RPG of all time. You know, you'll be hard pressed to find a guy who can't stretch his imagination to believe that they're really in control of Lara's b00bies. Role-playing quality has tangible, measurable characteristics. Its defined by the totality of its choice and consequence based on the players input. True, all games have basic choice and consequence (clear the level + kill the boss = beat the game). But that does not an RPG make. That's why you look to the totality of the choice and consequence. One of the ways this is is reflected is of course on event based choices of the player resulting in ending based consequences of the game. This is one department where Bio improves upon again and again. The other way choice and consequence is reflected is through character development of those your player associates with. As mentioned above, BG characters tend to remain flat in this department, whereas the recruits in Bio's later games are quasi or wholly dynamic.

 

Now if ascertaining the quality of role-playing aspects is based on objectively determinable characteristics rather than on one's arbitrary caprice, then yeah, color me Volo.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Yes but it needs to be plausible. One Shepard no matter how good he is, can't be as good as an army doing the same job.

Okay the plot is designed to be resolved by a small group of characters in some commando action, I can live with that.

 

I'm just not convinced that I'm playing a character who's exceptional. In fact the only thing that sets him apart is that he isn't a retard like everyone else seems to be (citadel council)

 

Yay for Shepard and his special school employers.

 

Query: does humanity deserve saving after such displays of short sightedness and stupidity?

[RPGmasterBoo]

Oh, but I haven't ignored BG2. When I speak of BG, I'm speaking of the entire series unless specifically stated to be BG1 or BG2 otherwise. That being said, my criticisms still apply to BG2. I think it's you that'll be hard pressed to find many characters apart from Anomen or Viconia that aren't flat in the BG series. That's probably why Viccy is one of Bio's best NPCs of all time. But that's too little, too late, to redeem the BG series as a whole in terms of being a better role-playing experience than Bio's later releases. There IS such a thing as true role-playing at least in a game sense (though I'm not averse to it in a sexual sense with the right chick mind you ). But let's start with what true role-playing isn't. A game suddenly doesn't become a good role-playing experience simply because you can "stretch your imagination to believe it to be so". Otherwise, Tomb Raider would be the best RPG of all time. You know, you'll be hard pressed to find a guy who can't stretch his imagination to believe that they're really in control of Lara's b00bies. Role-playing quality has tangible, measurable characteristics. Its defined by the totality of its choice and consequence based on the players input. True, all games have basic choice and consequence (clear the level + kill the boss = beat the game). But that does not an RPG make. That's why you look to the totality of the choice and consequence. One of the ways this is is reflected is of course on event based choices of the player resulting in ending based consequences of the game. This is one department where Bio improves upon again and again. The other way choice and consequence is reflected is through character development of those your player associates with. As mentioned above, BG characters tend to remain flat in this department, whereas the recruits in Bio's later games are quasi or wholly dynamic.

 

Now if ascertaining the quality of role-playing aspects is based on objectively determinable characteristics rather than on one's arbitrary caprice, then yeah, color me Volo.

 

I disagree, choices are always severely limited. Great role playing IMO is the ability of the game to make you believe that the choices you're making counts for something. What good is a multitude of choices if you don't care either way? In ME I could choose which one of my companions would bite the bullet, the trouble was - I didn't give a damn. I recognize its all subjective, but I am talking about what a great RPG is for me, and that will always be one that I can get emotionally invested in.

 

The entire BG saga had just one, real, choice at the very end but by that time you were thoroughly convinced you've a long way since Candlekeep and have finally become - the master of your own fate.

 

As for characters, having them tell their sad life story or just be influenced by the PC's whim doesn't equate to depth, or rather that depth is meaningless if the context isn't engaging enough. Okay sure, Carth Onasi was a deep character - but most of the time the principal desire was to throw him out of the airlock, or just ignore him.

 

Choose:

 

 

Doesn't help if you want an Oreo does it?

Edited January 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Shepard is obviously the chosen one. He got all the alien knowledge in his head in ME1, right?

[Oner]

Its convenient to ignore BGII and focus on BG which as you well know is the one that started the entire trend.

 

Make no mistake, BG by itself is dated, but BG does not stand by itself. Its a part of a greater story and most of its value is today derived from there.

 

BG 1 aside, you'd have to really stretch your imagination to prove that there was any significant improvement over BGII.

 

There's no such thing as true role playing - there is only the feeling that your avatar is doing something significant, something that you would do, or can relate to (through illusion of choice), and the lack of that feeling.

For all the supposed improved role playing in the games after BGII, you'll be hard pressed to find people who would actually claim that they are better games.

Slightly off topic but I liked Gothic 2 as a role-playing game. You became a paladin, you were treated like one, called one, and got quests from your bosses that related to your job. You became a mage (apprentice). Go live in the monastery, sweep the floor and distribute delicious reward food. Only RPG I know where my paladin felt like a freaking paladin.

And your character was a person with connections. Old friends from the first game were there, recognized you and gave you breaks when they could. The player isn't everyone's butt monkey for a change.

 

 

I understand the reasoning behind wanting the player to feel special, but you need some plausability. Right?

I'm just going to say that I chose the Skillian Blitz background for a reason.

 

 

As mentioned above, BG characters tend to remain flat in this department, whereas the recruits in Bio's later games are quasi or wholly dynamic.

Viconia: neutral evil or true neutral. Garrus: by-the-book or cowboy cop. I don't see the improvement here.

BTW I haven't started BG 2 yet so I don't know how the NPCs act in that, but I loved Garrus because he tried ****ing useful. You found a rigged gambling machine? "I'm running a trace." ...can't remember other examples, but damn. Garrus always gave technical help (and I guess the other science-y JNPCs pitch in too?), Wrex made some fight related remarks ("Smells like an ambush.") Sure, nothing important but it did feel like they are there with you for a reason.

 

 

Query: does humanity deserve saving after such displays of short sightedness and stupidity?

Dunno, but the council doesn't, as I said earlier, I saved the 'Destiny, not the council. Too bad you couldn't tell them that.

 

 

The entire BG saga had just one, real, choice at the very end but by that time you were thoroughly convinced you've a long way since Candlekeep and have finally become - the master of your own fate.

IMO NwN 2 has the best 'from nobody to hero' progression ever. Just adding my two cents.

[Purkake]

Having half a Githyanki silver sword stuck in your chest cavity doesn't exactly make you a nobody.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I haven't started BG 2 yet

 

What?

[Oner]

Having half a Githyanki silver sword stuck in your chest cavity doesn't exactly make you a nobody.

That didn't matter until the last third of the game and barely three people knew it.

 

 

I haven't started BG 2 yet

 

What?

It's called story progression. I'm running around Baldur's Gate giving little girls and gritty mercenaries angel skin rings and beating up doomsday demons here and there.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I haven't started BG 2 yet so I don't know how the NPCs act in that

The question was whether you actually played BGII at some point in time.

Edited January 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Having half a Githyanki silver sword stuck in your chest cavity doesn't exactly make you a nobody.

That didn't matter until the last third of the game and barely three people knew it.

Except for the part where Githyanki coming to your village to get it from your cold dead chest started the story.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Purkake

[Oner]

I haven't started BG 2 yet so I don't know how the NPCs act in that

The question was whether you actually played BGII at some point in time.

I did for an hour until Imoen was kidnapped but sadly I was in my "I can't be arsed to explore all this and try to talk with every idiot I see" period (FO 1 also fell in the same time frame, but fared somewhat better). Also, I haven't played BG 1 before and even if I know the important bits of the plot, it still feels off.

Sneaky editor. Not playing it doesn't mean I can't read up on the most loved aspect of the game.

 

 

Having half a Githyanki silver sword stuck in your chest cavity doesn't exactly make you a nobody.

That didn't matter until the last third of the game and barely three people knew it.

Except for the part where Githyanki coming to your village to get it from your cold dead chest started the story.

Nope, they were coming to your village to find the shards that they know were lost in the area. They didn't know one is in you until you confronted their leader. Edited January 21, 2010 by Oner

[RPGmasterBoo]

I did for an hour until Imoen was kidnapped but sadly I was in my "I can't be arsed to explore all this and try to talk with every idiot I see" period

 

 

Run.

[Oner]

Elaborate.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Elaborate.

 

1. Run lest I throw my ranger at you

2. Run and play the best RPG ever made

 

PS: ditch the content changing mods for BGII if you're playing for the first time.

Edited January 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Having half a Githyanki silver sword stuck in your chest cavity doesn't exactly make you a nobody.

That didn't matter until the last third of the game and barely three people knew it.

Except for the part where Githyanki coming to your village to get it from your cold dead chest started the story.

Nope, they were coming to your village to find the shards that they know were lost in the area. They didn't know one is in you until you confronted their leader.

Still your main character is hardly a nobody.

[Oner]

Elaborate.

 

1. Run lest I throw my ranger at you

2. Run and play the best RPG ever made

 

PS: ditch the content changing mods for BGII if you're playing for the first time.

1. I block him with my shield.

2. All in due time. I want to dammit, but I'm gonna finish BG 1 first even you send ranger throwing ninjas at me!

 

PS: I actually did that with BG 1 and will with BG 2, except some bugfix mods. Especially because of a certain NPCs missing 15 dialogues.

 

Still your main character is hardly a nobody.

Random orphan harborman #13. Sure, harbormen may be the Jim Raynors of NwN2, but you aren't an amnesiac quasi-immortal demigod or 'that one very special recruit'. You're a random unlucky baby that got pierced by a soul cutting sword-shard. Oops.