Dragon Age discussion

[Monte Carlo]

^ I'm siding with the werewolves next time - they're cooler and, despite having a genuine greivance, moan less about it.

[Monte Carlo]

BTW, my new sig is teh awesome, coming as it does from the 1st Ed. AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide. Gary Gygax had every base covered when it came to tables.

[Monte Carlo]

Actually got rid of it, felt guilty of bandwidth theft.

[Niten_Ryu]

take it for what it is worth... believe what you will, but gaider actual responded to Gromnir's criticism. gaider claimed ignorance. apparently he, nor anybody else who wrote the da story, actually knew the tolkien lore 'regarding the genesis o' orcs. Gromnir criticism that orks=darkspawn and that tolkien orcs were twisted and perverted elves were news to the biowarians... first they had heard of such a thing. really.

 

Dragon Age is so calculated game that someone knew for sure. And Elfs are not only ones that got changed in Tolkien's world - Ettins to Trolls, Maiar to Balrogs, Hobbit to Gollum (

There's even sort of Gollum clone in Deep Roads

), Humans to Nazg

[Oner]

Actually got rid of it, felt guilty of bandwidth theft.

You could PM with a link to it though.

 

 

Ettins to Trolls

I missed that. How the hell did they turn trees into meat bags?

[HoonDing]

ps for what it is worth, Gromnir believed gaider when he claimed ignorance... otherwise he woulda' been able to construct a far better excuse for his copying o' tolkien. am thinking he were honest surprised to find out that they had replicated tolkien's efforts.

Humans assailing 'heaven' & having their asses cursed for it in very drastic ways, happened in Tolkien's works too.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I would rather assault Hell. Think of all the mining rights and natural resources that could be had. Also we could free all the tortured souls. Be considered a hero and gain wealth and power. A win/win situation.

[jaguars4ever]

^ I'm siding with the werewolves next time - they're cooler and, despite having a genuine greivance, moan less about it.

Yeah, but do they have teh funnies?

 

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Oh great... One of the worst gaming webcomics out there...

[HoonDing]

"Ungreatful", huh?

[Maria Caliban]

'Lore' question regarding Emissaries:

 

 

How can Genlock Emissaries exist in the game? Genlocks are corrupted Dwarves & Dwarves are supposedly immune to magic.

 

 

A Genlock would be a corrupted half-dwarf. Hesspith (the dwarf woman who recites the broodmother poem) talks about how the darkspawn desire women and violate their flesh; she's alluding to sexual violations.

 

 

 

Or for that matter, how can any Darkspawn do magic? According to the codex they're all soulless, empty husks - how would they be able to access the Fade then?

 

 

We don't know if Darkspawn have souls or not. The Chantry doesn't believe they do, but the Chantry isn't always right.

 

Edited December 14, 2009 by Maria Caliban

[HoonDing]

A Genlock would be a corrupted half-dwarf. Hesspith (the dwarf woman who recites the broodmother poem) talks about how the darkspawn desire women and violate their flesh; she's alluding to sexual violations.

 

I thought the violations entailed transforming the Dwarven women into Broodmothers, and the Broodmothers created the bulk of Genlocks.

 

Does any living being that gets 'tainted' ever turn into a Darkspawn, rather than dying horribly or turn into Gollum?

 

 

The Chantry doesn't believe they do, but the Chantry isn't always right.

 

Leliana disapproves (-60)

 

[Oner]

"Ungreatful", huh?

The typo is funnier than the comic.

[Volourn]

"The Chantry doesn't believe they do, but the Chantry isn't always right."

 

I agree. Only problem is unless I missing something, was there any time in game that a Chantry 'fact' was proven wrong outright?

[Gromnir]

"The Chantry doesn't believe they do, but the Chantry isn't always right."

 

I agree. Only problem is unless I missing something, was there any time in game that a Chantry 'fact' was proven wrong outright?

 

you really ain't familiar with how religions work, are you?

 

 

unless maria has sources different from Gromnir, the half-dwarf stuff sounds wrong, but is plausible given bio's seeming preoccupation with sex in da.

 

as for the soulless darkspawn... Gromnir took that as a metaphor. witches and vampires and all sorta creatures has been called soulless in western folk lore and mythology. english folklore elves is soulless too... which is one reason recitation o' scripture and the sound o' church bells will drive 'em away. in any event, God and souls is abstracts in the da universe, no?

 

also, getting back to the original query which started this line o' questions, we know that dwarves is affected by lyrium and magic. dwarves can be made into golems, and brood mothers and dwarves experience changes when lyrium is introduced direct into blood. given a limitless da universe, no doubt the biowarians can explain without too much mental gymnastics a method by which darkspawn taint and lyrium can make magic-wielding genlocks possible.

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 14, 2009 by Gromnir

[HoonDing]

as for the soulless darkspawn... Gromnir took that as a metaphor. witches and vampires and all sorta creatures has been called soulless in western folk lore and mythology. english folklore elves is soulless too... which is one reason recitation o' scripture and the sound o' church bells will drive 'em away. in any event, God and souls is abstracts in the da universe, no?

 

The soulless shtick seems to be part of Grey Warden lore - only a Grey Warden can slay an Archdemon because otherwise the soul of the Archdemon passes into the empty husk of the nearest Darkspawn and gets 'reborn'.

 

That's what that Riordan explained near the end of the game, at least.

 

[Gromnir]

as for the soulless darkspawn... Gromnir took that as a metaphor. witches and vampires and all sorta creatures has been called soulless in western folk lore and mythology. english folklore elves is soulless too... which is one reason recitation o' scripture and the sound o' church bells will drive 'em away. in any event, God and souls is abstracts in the da universe, no?

 

The soulless shtick seems to be part of Grey Warden lore - only a Grey Warden can slay an Archdemon because otherwise the soul of the Archdemon passes into the empty husk of the nearest Darkspawn and gets 'reborn'.

 

That's what that Riordan explained near the end of the game, at least.

 

 

 

 

whatever mechanic the archdemons use to cheat death does not need necessitate a soul as we think o' it... or require that darkspawn be soulless. and even if soulless, it not preclude magery as the aforementioned examples o' elves and vampires would suggest. if bioware looks at soulless the same way as does a great many o' myths from our world, soulless wouldn't prevent magery.

 

regardless, Gromnir don't see anything inconsistent 'bout da lore and genlock mages.

 

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

One of the most awesome things about the Grey Wardens, seriously, is that when it's time for them to hang up their boots they go and... fight in tunnels. :: swoon ::

 

Although that is completely ripped off from the 'Long Walk' the Mega-City Judges took into the Cursed Earth (2000AD / Judge Dredd), 'tis still most cool.

[Gorth]

Maybe they simply decided that the opposition needed spell casters to add a bit of variety to combat, not because it made (or didn't make) sense?

 

Two of the main categories of enemies you run into, humans and darkspawn have very similar line ups. Human opposition have melee fighters, archers, Qunari mercenaries, blood mages etc. Darkspawn have hurlocks, genlocks, ogres and emissaries etc. Sometimes the darkspawn spell casters are replaced by spiders (which makes more sense to me) fulfilling the crowd control role with their webs. Strict adherence to lore may have been a secondary concern to spicing up combat a bit?

[Gromnir]

Maybe they simply decided that the opposition needed spell casters to add a bit of variety to combat, not because it made (or didn't make) sense?

 

doesn't change anything. the biowarians created the lore AND the gameplay. sure, is perfectly valid to consider gameplay before or above lore, but is no reason for the two to be in opposition. bio created. if there is a conflict, then it is an unnecessary oversight on the part o' the biowarians.

 

that being said, we not see a conflict, but given how vague bioware was regarding their darkspawn and gods n' such, we didn't expect conflicts. is subsequent games where there will be problems. as soon as bio attempts to take the bogeyman out of the closet or from underneath the bed, Then they is gonna needs be very careful to make sure they hasn't created internal conflicts... or they can do as gorth suggests and simply wing it, embracing practicality and abandoning the geeks and nerdlings who actually bothered to read their thedas lore.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[newc0253]

that being said, we not see a conflict, but given how vague bioware was regarding their darkspawn and gods n' such, we didn't expect conflicts. is subsequent games where there will be problems. as soon as bio attempts to take the bogeyman out of the closet or from underneath the bed, Then they is gonna needs be very careful to make sure they hasn't created internal conflicts... or they can do as gorth suggests and simply wing it, embracing practicality and abandoning the geeks and nerdlings who actually bothered to read their thedas lore.

it's very simple. dwarves lack a sufficient concentration of midichlorians in their bloodstream needed to perform magic...

[Maria Caliban]

There are times where gameplay trumps lore. This is because BioWare found the lore it created too bothersome as in

Why don't your companions ever die of the taint? Because it's not fun.

, because the content got cut

there was a lyrium addition mechanic planned

, or for no reason whatsoever

David Gaider says he has no idea why Branka splits into seven different versions of herself in the Anvil fight, or why touching raw lyrium in the Anvil would heal you when it's supposed to be poisonous and volatile

.

 

I don't think genlock emisaries are an example of gameplay disagreeing with lore.

 

@Gromnir: I said that poorly. David has said that

the taint impregnates the broodmothers and that any resulting off-spring aren

[Aristes]

I just finished the game. It was my first full playthrough, although I had previously played up to the village of lothering. Sadly, the character I created for my aborted run was prettier. Aw well, such is life.

 

In regards to the most recent discussion, I don't care about the nitty gritty of the lore. I have nothing but contempt for the idea of memorizing these little details. I can't see how some folks dedicate their lives to reciting such weighty bits of information as the serial number for the Star Ship Enterprise and the like. I mean, I've watched Frasier so often, I know all the inconsistencies between the episodes, but I don't really dwell on them. All's I can say is that the lore and gameplay in Dragon Age meshed well enough that I didn't really care about the odds and ends that might not have matched perfectly. Hell, if anything bugged me, it wasn't the lore, but some of the situations. Thinking back over the choices, I can pick out a few that struck me as unrealistic. Some of the circumstances were outright ridiculous. However, the game itself was quite fun.

 

Between the game I played up to Lothering and the one I just finished, I managed to kill over a thousand darkspawn. I don't think that's such an accomplishment, but it does give you one of those badge thingies, and I like those, so I figured I'd mention it. I kept over half of my army alive by the end, which was another cool badge. I know that I killed all those darkspawn because I didn't have a choice. It seems strange to get a badge for something that you don't have a choice about doing. On the other hand, saving my army was entirely incidental. It's not that I didn't care, or don't, it's that I didn't know how to save them. I guess I spared them mostly by remembering how idiotic the AI is about getting in my line of fire and holding off on my AoE spells.

 

 

Morrigan left. I told her not to let the door hit her on her ass as she departed.

She pulled out with some funky mojo that was really harshing my buzz. I did kill

flemmeth

. Frankly, that part and

Landsmeet

were real bummers.

 

 

The PC

died. Next time, I think I'll do it the other way around.

 

I managed to set foot in every area of the game, which I guess makes me a bit of a compleltenik. I didn't necessarily go out of my way to explore so much as I went out of my way to finish quests. Even so, I achieved the sidetracked badge late in the game, which leads me to believe that there are a lot of sidequests that I didn't see. Probably between 15-20% by my reckonning. Now, three of them were on my list but I simply could not complete them. That means there were plenty I either missed somehow or are associated with other folks. I only did two side quests associated with my minions.

Alistair and Morrigan. Morrigan left a bitter taste in my mouth. From her crazy assed plan, I can only assume that she worships the old gods. Hell, by the time she told me about it, Flemeth might have already possessed her or whatever. I was happy to be rid of her. Hey, my next character might not be so much of a goodie goodie and maybe both Ali and the PC will survive.

 

 

I did my run on hard without any mods that changed things either to make it easier or harder. In fact, I played it through with no mods at all. Now, I think I can safely say that I could probably probably finish it on Nightmare, but I don't think the game is too easy. In fact, some of the battles were ugly. Not ones I might have expected, though. The

blood mage compound

in Denerim was tough as nails. A lot of fight I could simply win by cheesing them. For example, if I knew that I was going to fight someone, I would often cast blizzard and/or inferno on them before the battle. I'm not talking metagaming here. Only an idiot sees a bunch of angry, irritated, or just plain pissed off armed folk and doesn't take action. I didn't need to play through the scenarios to know I was going to be attacked, so I didn't wait for a second run to through out my own brand of ugly. Likewise, I would often kite people all over the place. In the end game, I blizzard/inferno killed a bunch of the darkspawn bastards because they're so damned stupid the archers will stand in a line and not move after they've seen you. Could I have killed them by rushing in? Sure, the end game darkspawn hit the mattress so hard they've got a permanent 'Sealy' imprint on their bums. So, for the entire game, I think the hardest damned battles were all around those

tombstones in the Brecilian Forest

. Nothing like having my sorry backside beat down by tall, dark, and undead. Orzammar had some toughies too. That battle against the

broodmother

was harder than the final area boss battle for the deeproads. At least in my opinion.

 

However, most fights went pretty well. That's good. If you enjoy games where you only win any of the battles by getting killed several times in the process, more power to you. I thought it was tough enough to be challenging but easy enough not to be frustrating. In that regard, my epic battles of killing the enemy of old age while my two spirit healers kept my side alive worked just fine. Yeah, crushing prison might be the bomb for other folks, but it just earned a beating for my mages. I relied far less on control and far more on administering an ol' skool beat down. Healing was the name of the game in my run. Unless nightmare is quite a bit different from what folks have led me to believe, I think the healing approach would probably serve even better there. I do think it would be interesting to try a combat mage/spirit healer tank, though. That could be tough but funny. I'll save that for the tactics thread.

 

I'm going to play it again as a rogue at least and then maybe tinker with different ideas. I'll probably start a nightmare run, but I'll switch to hard (or even normal) for battle that frustrate me. I didn't think the ending was too drawn out and irritating, as some folks have said, but I will probably switch to an easier setting just to go through quickly. I'll probably even do an easy run assuming there's dialogue or party composition stuff I want to see after my second run.

 

So, after my long winded, wall of text, fatigue induced rambling, I can safely say that this is a great game. Wonderful experience. I was not a huge fan of NWNx. I'm glad that Bioware came out with a wonderful single player game. I don't know that I'll buy any DLC, but I will definitely buy any substantial expansion or sequel they publish.

 

Edit: I might have left a typo or two, but I literally put in the opposite word somewhere and figured I should probably fix it. After all, it was easy.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Aristes

[Monte Carlo]

She pulled out with some funky mojo that was really harshing my buzz.

 

The youth of today. I'm going to try that one on my wife next time she annoys me, just to see what happens.

[Aristes]

Ha, MC, I'm probably older than you! Well... I don't know. You're pretty old. hehe Forty here, as of July. So you know this late night gaming and posting is going to kill me in the morning, which is fast approaching.