Ask me about Communism.

[Pidesco]

"But masters, remember that I am an ass: though it be not written down, yet forget not that I am an ass.""

 

Lay off, you two.

 

 

And get back on topic.

[mkreku]

Just a small example out of reality. Sweden and Finland are geographical neighbours, but very different nations.

 

Sweden has one of the most stringent gun control laws in Europe (but still with a lot of guns since we're a hunting nation).

Finland has one of the laxest gun control laws in Europe (which is probably about to change after the recent shootings).

 

You're 4-5 times more likely to get shot in a violent crime in Finland than in Sweden. Same with accidental shootings.

 

Might just be a coincidence.

 

Oh, and in the nation with the most guns per capita in the world, the US, you're more than 20 times more likely to get shot (either in a crime or in an accident) than in Sweden. Guess that home defense works wonders for you!

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...ated_death_rate

[Wrath of Dagon]

Depends on the culture. Mexico, where guns are completely illegal, has double the gun homicide rate than US. Switzerland and Israel, where everyone has an assault rifle, has similar homicide rates to the rest of Europe.

[Pidesco]

Depends on the culture. Mexico, where guns are completely illegal, has double the gun homicide rate than US. Switzerland and Israel, where everyone has an assault rifle, has similar homicide rates to the rest of Europe.

 

 

According to mkreku's link, Switzerland is very near the top of the list, and Israel isn't far off.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I was talking about homicides, the total is mostly suicides. With more people having guns, obviously suicide by gun would be higher, doesn't say anything about the total number of suicides though.

[Meshugger]

Just a small example out of reality. Sweden and Finland are geographical neighbours, but very different nations.

 

Sweden has one of the most stringent gun control laws in Europe (but still with a lot of guns since we're a hunting nation).

Finland has one of the laxest gun control laws in Europe (which is probably about to change after the recent shootings).

 

You're 4-5 times more likely to get shot in a violent crime in Finland than in Sweden. Same with accidental shootings.

 

Might just be a coincidence.

 

Oh, and in the nation with the most guns per capita in the world, the US, you're more than 20 times more likely to get shot (either in a crime or in an accident) than in Sweden. Guess that home defense works wonders for you!

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...ated_death_rate

 

Of course there's culture behind that plays a significant role as well. But no matter, since we can't determine whether if guns have created a culture to shoot people more often, or if the culture makes people to shoot each other more often.

 

Oh, and that figure chart does not take into consideration whether if homicides were directly related to suicides. A known fact in Finland is that you are never afraid of strangers shooting you, it is your close family and friends that you have to be afraid of, because they will more likely shoot you.

 

I can almost bet that 90% of those "homicides" are close family to the ones who committed suicide.

[taks]

But no matter, since we can't determine whether if guns have created a culture to shoot people more often, or if the culture makes people to shoot each other more often.

mkreku committed yet another fallacy: **** hoc ergo propter hoc. look it up, mkreku. the correlation, btw, does not hold when you get down to the state level in the US, either. you would expect to see higher death rates (gun-related) in areas with the most liberal gun control laws and/or highest ownership rates, but that is not true (it is all over the map). you would also expect to have seen the UK rate drop relative to the US' after the gun ban went into effect, which it did not (the UK's has always been lower).

 

taks

[taks]

ya know, the problem with the correlation argument has been known for decades, yet people like mkreku continue to trot it out as evidence of something. do people like this really accept everything that supports their belief this uncritically? it takes 2 seconds to find the data on google, and the refutation is cited every time the flawed argument is made. repeating a flawed argument ad infinitum does not make it any more correct - the refutation is just as valid now as it always has been, yet still it gets made as if everyone suddenly got stupid and forgot. pets are like that trying to get something from you... they'll wait a while then come back at it, probably because they forgot you said no, but it seems like they're hoping you're the one that forgot you said no.

 

taks

[mkreku]

As usual you regurgitate some latin crap you've found on wikipedia and doesn't actually adress the subject being discussed. You spend more time arguing the argument than the subject of discussion. Useless, just like mostly everything you post.

 

But hey, since since none of the real world numbers are good enough for you (and you can take it down to garage level to see that they're wrong, I mean, you probably have three gun in the garage that never shot anyone!!), feel free to pull some arbitrary numbers out of your ass that explains WHY you're more than four times more likely to get shot in Finland than in Sweden. And why do YOU think you're more than 20 times more likely to get shot in the US than in Sweden?

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't know, how many illegal alien street gangs do you have in Sweden?

[Pidesco]

They had legal alien street violence when I was there. Multiculturalism was the problem, not legality.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Actually legal immigrants from anywhere do very well here. And most illegal ones too.

[Pidesco]

MAFIA

 

So I hear.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Mafia isn't mostly immigrants so far as I know, though that might have been the case a century ago. Granted there are organizations like the Russian mafia, which are immigrants.

[Pidesco]

Heh, I know. It was a cheap blow on my part, just for the lulz.

 

Regarding Sweden, immigrants are a very small part of the population, unlike in the States, so that could be the difference between Sweden and the US when it comes to violence. That isn't the case, at all, when comparing Sweden to Finland, however.

[mkreku]

Regarding Sweden, immigrants are a very small part of the population, unlike in the States, so that could be the difference between Sweden and the US when it comes to violence. That isn't the case, at all, when comparing Sweden to Finland, however.

Not quite true. 18% of Sweden's population are immigrants, compared to 2,4% of Finland's population.

 

The US is a nation of immigrants so I'm not sure how you'd measure their immigration percentage..

[Pidesco]

Really? That many? I had no idea. I was convinced the numbers were closer to the ones for Finland.

[Wrath of Dagon]

We don't count people who are born here as immigrants.

[Rosbjerg]

We don't count people who are born here as immigrants.

 

The correlation, btw, does not hold when you get down to the communal level in Sweden. You would expect to see higher immigrant level in areas with the most liberal immigration control laws, but that is not true (it is all over the map). You would also expect to have seen Finland's rate drop relative to Sweden's after the immigration ban went into effect, which it did not (Finland's has always been lower).

 

..

 

Good point though Dagon

 

..

[Oerwinde]

I'm in the camp that thinks its more the culture than the guns. The US has a culture of fear. People who are afraid that everyone is out to kill you and your family are more likely to unload into someone threatening. Hence why the societies where the mindset is more peaceful tend to have high gun ownership rates and low incidents of gun crime. Canada for instance has a higher gun ownership rate than the US, but gun crime rate is much lower.

 

I myself was robbed at gun point which could have ended very badly for me. If I had a weapon I could have killed that bugger before he had a chance to pull out his gun.

And then he'd be dead. Instead of both of you being alive. Good thing you didn't have a gun, otherwise you'd be a murderer.

[Calax]

I'm in the camp that thinks its more the culture than the guns. The US has a culture of fear. People who are afraid that everyone is out to kill you and your family are more likely to unload into someone threatening. Hence why the societies where the mindset is more peaceful tend to have high gun ownership rates and low incidents of gun crime. Canada for instance has a higher gun ownership rate than the US, but gun crime rate is much lower.

 

I myself was robbed at gun point which could have ended very badly for me. If I had a weapon I could have killed that bugger before he had a chance to pull out his gun.

And then he'd be dead. Instead of both of you being alive. Good thing you didn't have a gun, otherwise you'd be a murderer.

technically there are self defense clauses in the murder statute, but I don't think fighting back when you've got a gun in your face is going to do any good unless you're well trained because often you'll end up getting yourself shot.

 

As to the attitude thing, You're right. Everyone is so worried about saving themselves from each other that they get to be of the mindest shoot first as questions later.

[Oerwinde]

I'm in the camp that thinks its more the culture than the guns. The US has a culture of fear. People who are afraid that everyone is out to kill you and your family are more likely to unload into someone threatening. Hence why the societies where the mindset is more peaceful tend to have high gun ownership rates and low incidents of gun crime. Canada for instance has a higher gun ownership rate than the US, but gun crime rate is much lower.

 

I myself was robbed at gun point which could have ended very badly for me. If I had a weapon I could have killed that bugger before he had a chance to pull out his gun.

And then he'd be dead. Instead of both of you being alive. Good thing you didn't have a gun, otherwise you'd be a murderer.

technically there are self defense clauses in the murder statute, but I don't think fighting back when you've got a gun in your face is going to do any good unless you're well trained because often you'll end up getting yourself shot.

 

As to the attitude thing, You're right. Everyone is so worried about saving themselves from each other that they get to be of the mindest shoot first as questions later.

Discussing after the fact, he pulled a gun, no one got hurt. He's claiming if he had a gun, he would have killed him before the guy had a chance to pull his. Basing this on events that happened, he's basically talking about killing someone because he threatened him. Thats murder, not self defence. At the point of the incident, it would likely be interpreted as self defence, but knowing the outcome, we know now that it wouldn't have been the case.

[Walsingham]

I'm in the camp that thinks its more the culture than the guns. The US has a culture of fear. People who are afraid that everyone is out to kill you and your family are more likely to unload into someone threatening. Hence why the societies where the mindset is more peaceful tend to have high gun ownership rates and low incidents of gun crime. Canada for instance has a higher gun ownership rate than the US, but gun crime rate is much lower.

 

I myself was robbed at gun point which could have ended very badly for me. If I had a weapon I could have killed that bugger before he had a chance to pull out his gun.

And then he'd be dead. Instead of both of you being alive. Good thing you didn't have a gun, otherwise you'd be a murderer.

 

I agree with Oerwinde here. A clean conscience is worth the price of a drycleaned suit, don't you think? Not to mention the cost of actually getting your suit cleaned.

[Meshugger]

But hey, since since none of the real world numbers are good enough for you (and you can take it down to garage level to see that they're wrong, I mean, you probably have three gun in the garage that never shot anyone!!), feel free to pull some arbitrary numbers out of your ass that explains WHY you're more than four times more likely to get shot in Finland than in Sweden. And why do YOU think you're more than 20 times more likely to get shot in the US than in Sweden?

 

I would still like to find data on homicide by guns in Finland where the killer did know/didn't know the victim. I heard of "bad" neighbourhoods where you can get robbed or beat up, like the Helsinki trainstation (Somali gangs), or other parts of Vanda (alcoholics and other dregs) but i have never heard about areas where guns are shot against strangers.

 

Take the albanian guy who shot 5 five to death in Espoo (near Helsinki) on new years eve. They all knew each other, one of the was his ex-wife.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I agree with Oerwinde here. A clean conscience is worth the price of a drycleaned suit, don't you think? Not to mention the cost of actually getting your suit cleaned.

 

I rather have him dead. If someone points a gun at me then I am going to react to it like he or she is going to kill me, and if someone is going to kill me I want to kill them first. Anyway, the stupid idiot got himself caught 30 minutes later because his getaway car had a busted tail light.