Dragon age discussion

[Jaesun]

I don't get the Rogues are gimped. Build up Alestair as a tank, have him build up threat, THEN run in and stabby stabby back-stab FTW!

 

I have NEVER played a Rogue in say BG/BG2 as I just did not like them, in DA I had an utter BLAST. <3

[Gromnir]

Methinks pickpocketing is worth it in the Origins and Lothering, but not after that. I think putting 1 on the main character is all that's needed.

You have 8 or so characters (4 if you don't want to change party after exploring just to pickpocket) with 22/2-3 skill points to burn. Giving one of them pickpocketing is no big deal.

 

unless you respec, chances are that most o' the character's skill points is spent before you recruit 'em. for instance, if you happen to think that it would be insane to give wynne four tiers of combat tactics, then you may be out of luck. sure, combat training is kinda like d&d concentration, but combat tactics? it is also preferable to have more than 1 character get at least 2 or 3 levels o' herbalism, 'cause you never know when you is gonna need a couple extra potions. with only 1 character proficient at herbalism you default gotta keep that character in your party at all times, no? warriors and rogues all pretty much gotta fill out the combat training skill if they want top-tier combat talents, and we thinks it is kinda a no-brainer to give all non-mages at least 1 level o' posion. etc. thus, the number o' functionally available skill points is not so large as you make it seem to be... but yeah, our first time through the game we didn't feel like we were sacrificing anything by giving the french girl 3 tiers o' picking of pockets... 'cause the only reason we had for bringing her out of camp were to do thiefy stuff likes picking pockets and opening locked chests.... and disarming the infrequent trap we had failed to trip.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Pidesco]

Considering its effect on user experience, Tactics really shouldn't be a skill. Obviously it should be an option outside the game. It really seems like a collective brain fart on the part of Bioware.

[Gromnir]

I don't get the Rogues are gimped. Build up Alestair as a tank, have him build up threat, THEN run in and stabby stabby back-stab FTW!

 

I have NEVER played a Rogue in say BG/BG2 as I just did not like them, in DA I had an utter BLAST. <3

 

our problem with rogues ain't 'bout power disparity. we played through dwarf noble rogue and human noble warrior almost simultaneous... and the rogue were pretty effective. our current rogue is also effective. 'course, the question that comes to mind when we play rogue is: why? why even have a rogue class. take a da warrior... now subtract 2h talents and sword and board talents. to make up for the subtraction, add some thiefy talents. why? what is purpose? make the thief abilities open and available to mage and warrior and you has effective removed the need for a rogue class. you also would get more interesting and diverse warrior and mage builds by doing so.

 

also, the da jnpc rogues... suck. part of this is bioware's doing with their crappy initial builds for the rogues. the other problem is that rogues would seem to benefit from a more careful spread of attribute points, and the jnpcs have fewer ability points than a pc rogue. late in the game, when the mages is spamming area effect spells, then the french girl becomes a valuable party mate. before that non-specific point she were a combat liability. and zeveran... why? no lock pick, so he is a solid, but unexceptional light warrior. unless Gromnir is playing a tank pc, we cannot seem to find room for him. so, why?

 

is not that rogues is ineffective... is that they is unnecessary.

 

as for combat tactics as a purchasable SKILL...

 

...

 

single dumbest aspect of da... and that is saying something. is a nice game, but there is some head-scratchers related to rules, mechanics, and story. even so, there is no bigger mystery than combat tactics as a skill. am honest curious to hear the rationale that led to the inclusion o' combat tactics, 'cause Gromnir is complete baffled by the result. heck, while Gromnir thinks that 5 and 7 gold sovereign backpack space is kinda ridiculous, at least we can understand how and why bio bent us over with their backpack scheme. am not getting combat tactics. "We need one more skill. Does anyone have any ideas? Anyone?" perhaps there were another one of those silly community contests we didn't hear about: create the final da skill. cartography maybe came in second... have map not fully functional 'less you buy ranks in cartography skill. maybe the da doctors lost a bet. dunno.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[SeanM]

I think rogues are ok. There is a versatility to build one as a heavy armoured dual wielder or a light sneaky fighter. Combat stealth, backstabbing bonuses and extra skill points are quite good. If there was not a rogue class I think there would be a demand for it. If even just for the feeling of playing a rogue rather than a straightforward warrior.

 

I think the main issue is the 4 member party limit. Some people might prefer 2 Warriors and 2 Mages. Or 3 Warriors 1 Mage. They don't have enough room to bring along a rogue. But I can't see the party size increasing.

[Niten_Ryu]

But I can't see the party size increasing.

 

And why is that?

 

From Gold Box games till Icewind Dale 2, default party size was 6. Sure there were four party member configurations like in Eye of the Beholder. Games like Jagged Alliance had 8 person party. I could be wrong but Bioware moved to max 4 man party with NWN because of 3rd edition rules (was something about encounters are balanced for 4 person party who use certain % of their spells, skills and resources). Mass Effect has 3 person groups. World of Warcraft have 5 person groups, 10 person small raids and 25 person large raids.

 

Actually I think 6 person party could work fine in game like Dragon Age, especially if designers could plan encounters for 2 tank, 2 dps and 2 mage configurations. Sure you could still do 3 mage party but it wouldn't be as overpowered as it's now.

[SeanM]

I think it could work. It is a game where you fight big groups of enemies. So it would not unbalance things too much. Even 5 members would give much more flexibility in building a party.

 

I don't think it will happen officially because it is multiplatform series. I don't know how awkward it is to switch between five characters on the console versions.

[alanschu]

The point isn't viability or whether this restricts anyone 'too much'. The point is that it's a restriction that is completely unnecessary. If something has NO good points and only mildly bad points, and is irritating to boot, why have it at all?

 

I did mention why, and I said it was disappointing they didn't build on that further. It's not a great reason, but it is the reason. Right now all it does is make each class slightly distinct, but with no real benefit for it. This is probably also the reason for how attribute points are allocated. People of a particular class/race combo are likely cued to go a certain way based on what the authors wanted for the lore of the game. Unfortunately all it really does is annoy those that feel it's a wasted point.

[alanschu]

Considering its effect on user experience, Tactics really shouldn't be a skill. Obviously it should be an option outside the game. It really seems like a collective brain fart on the part of Bioware.

 

I agree with this. Anyone that wants to play the game only controlling their main character pretty much has to take party tactics. It existed before I got there and since it was already in the game, I knew they weren't going to bother taking it out with the PC version finished.

 

Having said that, outside of combat training for rogues/warriors, I think most skills are not particularly necessary. I had 3 or 4 points of herbalism on one character, but never bothered to really learn any higher level potions, nor bothered to collect materials for making them. Poisons I started out getting, but ultimately didn't care for them either. By the end of the game I was dumping points into survival simply because it at least gave me some persistent benefits.

 

Abilities like crafting and poisons may be more necessary on higher difficulty levels, but it's pretty easy to beat the game without them on normal difficulty.

[jaguars4ever]

Holy ****. I'm on my second playthrough, and my Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage rips through anything (singlehandedly). Insanely powerful compared to my first character (Templar w/ 100% magic resistance).

 

BTW, does anyone know how to check your Arcane Warrior's attack rating? (I know the game didn't exactly show my Templar magic resistance either, but that was easy to calculate by simply adding up all the equipment magic resistances)

 

Also, how exactly do the mage gloves work that add %elemental damage - do they add the elemental damage to all spells, staff attacks, or just spell of similar elemental damage?

Edited November 30, 2009 by Gorth
Circumventing language filter. Bad, bad Jags...

[Magnum Opus]

I don't get the Rogues are gimped. Build up Alestair as a tank, have him build up threat, THEN run in and stabby stabby back-stab FTW!

 

I have NEVER played a Rogue in say BG/BG2 as I just did not like them, in DA I had an utter BLAST. <3

People are saying Rogues are gimped in this game?

 

 

....

 

 

All right. Am officially baffled. Shouldn't be, I know, because people say everything on the internet, but I am. True, according to the stats I'm generating in for the two builds my rogue is only getting 35% of the damage for the party, instead of the 50%+ that my mage was, but I'm having a FAR easier time playing my rogue than I ever did my mage. Much of that is probably due to an increased familiarity with the way the game works and what skills are the most effective in which situation, but still...

 

Am also really enjoying the rogue class in DA:O, tho. Much more than I ever did in a DnD based game.

 

I suspect most of the complaints stem from the fact that players are seeing differences, rather than actual deficiencies. But it's been a rare fight this second thief-game time through that's seen me finding the challenge level greater than my first mage-run. And that's with me playing the game at one higher difficulty level than before.

 

Ah well. Am absolutely loving this game. Only thing I really give two hoots about is that there's more of it on the horizon. DA2, please. Will content myself with DLC & other expansions in the meantime, but I hope they're at least working on another like-minded offering.

[HoonDing]

BTW, does anyone know how to check your Arcane Warrior's attack rating? (I know the game didn't exactly show my Templar magic resistance either, but that was easy to calculate by simply adding up all the equipment magic resistances)

Base attack (50) + combat magic bonus (5+spellpower/5) + aura of might bonus (5) + weapon bonus (Spellweaver runes)

Edited November 30, 2009 by virumor

[jaguars4ever]

virumor wins the North Cross-South Cross-Northern Lights award!

 

(For those who don't understand the reference, well, that's why you aren't getting the award)

[Tigranes]

Now that I've actually completed a playthrough as a rogue, I can definitely say they are not gimped. The impression seems to have come from the fact that before the dexterity hotfix, Leliana was definitely not as useful in combat as other characters, and you do need more nous to get the best out of the rogue compared to, say, the warrior. Once the hotfix is integrated into the real patch I think the 'gimp rogue' doesn't stand up.

 

I've decided to go Mage PC, Shale, Leliana and Random Warrior - still wondering whether Sten 2H will actually be able to stay alive. Nightmare isn't actually that bad now I know the ins and outs of the game, I've done Origins, Lothering, Shale and now am at Redcliffe - no party wipes, only two or three player deaths. This time I'm going to try hitting Denerim very early (just after Redcliffe village defence) to get those 'around-the-world' quests and get the money flowing early. I'm also looking at using traps extensively.

[jaguars4ever]

Just don't rush to the Deep Roads. Ugh. I hate the Deep Roads.

 

Give me the iron maiden, the guillotine - anything but the Deep Roads! The first time I entered these Deep Roads of Dungeon Grinding Melancholy I was almost overcome with joy! Yes, joy as the overhead map popped out before my eyes like a morning stiffy! Thoughts of grandeur overtook my mind - could this be a whole subset of towns to adventure like the world map? Could this be an RPG within an RPG? Could this finally be the culminating moment in gaming history where Dwarven awesomeness finally gets the recognition it deserves? Well my friends, Bio's answer to these questions and more was 'All Your Base Are Belong to Us'. It was a merciless gruel more frustrating than tedious and one of the few black stains on this otherwise imperious game. You know why those gnarly Dwarves became insane and more contorted than Winona Ryder's face during a botched shop-lift? It wasn't because of eating Darkspawn flesh. It was because they spent too much time in the infernal Deep Roads!

[Tigranes]

I like the Deep Roads.

[jaguars4ever]

I like the Deep Roads.

You like Pidesco too, but that doesn't make it right.

[Enoch]

I've only yet done the first area of the Deep Roads, but so far it isn't looking promising. (And the progression through that crimelord's den was grind-tastic, too. I just finished that before quitting last night.)

 

I'm still in Orz for the first time (was away from the PC over the holiday weekend), and I've been working for the Prince. Yeah, he seems to be a manipulative bastard, but I'm thinking that the Dwarves could use some ruthless (read: effective) leadership to dig out of the holes that their traditions have gotten them into. Also, Lord H's demand that I jump into gladitorial combat in his name just to prove that I'm trustworthy enough to meet him was rather off-putting.

[HoonDing]

Deep Roads is worse than Drakensang's Grolm tunnels.

 

But luckily on this playthrough I can now simply storm through it as an Arcane Warrior without losing too much time. Really, if the Dwarves wouldn't be the only allies that are worth a penny, I'd skip that entire section of the game.

Edited November 30, 2009 by virumor

[Pidesco]

I like the Deep Roads.

You like Pidesco too, but that doesn't make it right.

 

 

Still bitter, I see.

[Monte Carlo]

I want the XP to be called "Deeper Roads: More Fighting in Tunnels." In my golfing apparel.

 

Anyway I finally finished it, the final battle was fun but the mechanics of the epilogue were the best in any CRPG I've played, all the sub-stories about Stuff You'd Done and talking to the NPCs about the future.

Turns out that me and Zorro Elf are going to look for Morrigan, kill people, get rich then go on holiday with Sten. Ha ha ha!

 

 

Well done Bioware, mission accomplished. Now make another one.

 

Cheers

MC

[jaguars4ever]

I like the Deep Roads.

You like Pidesco too, but that doesn't make it right.

 

 

Still bitter, I see.

Don't come crying back to me when he breaks your heart.

[jaguars4ever]

Deep Roads is worse than Drakensang's Grolm tunnels.

 

But luckily on this playthrough I can now simply storm through it as an Arcane Warrior without losing too much time. Really, if the Dwarves wouldn't be the only allies that are worth a penny, I'd skip that entire section of the game.

Ugh, you can forget about intelligent AI that attempts to tactically defeat you - those Grolms used the simplest and most effective technique in the book: the group pummel! Do you remember that one sequence where you're ascending a spiral stairway in the tunnels laden with traps and whatnot (which your dumbass party members would wade through) and swarms of Grolmswould descend upon you in waves? Not cool at all.

 

Anyway, what difficulty level are you playing at? 'Cause my Arcane Warrior is also kicking ass and chewing bubble gum (and is all out of gum). Compared to my first Templar character, the Arcane Warrior is leaps and heads above him in pwnagery.

[TheHarlequin]

Considering its effect on user experience, Tactics really shouldn't be a skill. Obviously it should be an option outside the game. It really seems like a collective brain fart on the part of Bioware.

 

I agree with this. Anyone that wants to play the game only controlling their main character pretty much has to take party tactics. It existed before I got there and since it was already in the game, I knew they weren't going to bother taking it out with the PC version finished.

 

Having said that, outside of combat training for rogues/warriors, I think most skills are not particularly necessary. I had 3 or 4 points of herbalism on one character, but never bothered to really learn any higher level potions, nor bothered to collect materials for making them. Poisons I started out getting, but ultimately didn't care for them either. By the end of the game I was dumping points into survival simply because it at least gave me some persistent benefits.

 

Abilities like crafting and poisons may be more necessary on higher difficulty levels, but it's pretty easy to beat the game without them on normal difficulty.

 

As someone who enjoys macromanaging a battle I can say the amount of tactic slots you get are not nearly enough even with the skill maxed. I am using the add 25 slots to every PC in your party mod and 75% though the game with morg I used up EVERY slot. lel with all her abilities came close as well. To just control your pc and EFFECTIVLY have the other PCs manage themselves without a lot fo hand holding you need more then 6 slots by the time your 1/3 though the game as your abilities outnumber your tactic slots.

 

What they should have done is start everyone with 8 slots, 1 adds per lvl and every skill point in tactics add another 3. THAT would have been much more worth while and giving the player enough slots to manage the chars. As it is now by the time you burn slots telling them when to heal themsevles, drink pots for mana and spcial abilities you hardly have any slots left over for anything else. They it seems, on purpose, crippled the tactics so you are forced to micromanage fights.

 

And there is NO way to beat the game on normal without one PC having herbal skill to make pots. There just are NOT enough pre-made ones for sale.

[TheHarlequin]

I don't get the Rogues are gimped. Build up Alestair as a tank, have him build up threat, THEN run in and stabby stabby back-stab FTW!

 

I have NEVER played a Rogue in say BG/BG2 as I just did not like them, in DA I had an utter BLAST. <3

 

Made lel a DW in med armor and she kicks serious arse while my warrior pc and alistar took the brunt of the attacks. shes backstabbing left and right while the monsters are focused on the heavly armored peeps.