Planescape: Torment Topic

[RPGmasterBoo]

@Boo, if you sat down someone who's never heard of Picasso or seen his paintings and showed him one of Picasso's pieces and some crap you made in 5 minutes, could he pick out the "real" art every time?

 

No, which is why inexperienced people do not get a vote. Art is an elite thing - has been and always will be. You have to know the subject thoroughly to reconize the artistic value of it.

[Purkake]

Good argument for a Planescape thread guys.

 

Maybe if enough people believe that PST is art the universe will bend to make it so?

 

@Boo: sounds like you can only recognize art when you are taught that it is art.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Purkake

[GreasyDogMeat]

The box art is bad. I get that they're trying to do something different, but for people who've never heard of planescape, what does a blue zombie face tell them?

 

It is. It even hurt sales to a certain degree. A simple symbol of torment on a leather book type background as seen in the ending cinematic would have been infinitely better.

I can testify to that. I'm one of those fools who saw the game box around it's release and I passed it up. Only years later when I heard it was a D&D game using the same engine as Baldur's Gate did I finally pick it. One of the best RPGs I've ever played.

[HoonDing]

It would be a very different game. I don't see April as having several different incarnations, or being interested in the philosophy of the world. For an artist, she had a very straightforward outlook on life.

It would be possible, though, considering April's very nature & what the White Dragon said to her in the prologue of the game (not to mention in Dreamfall).

 

Btw, it's ironic that April has a (excellent) discussion about art similar to this thread with a pivotal character in TLJ...

Edited September 13, 2009 by virumor

[RPGmasterBoo]

...but an objective measure of things has to exist...

 

No, it doesn't. As a human being, you may desperately want an objective measure of things, and you may seek to find an objective measure of things, but the universe isn't obliged or even interested in helping you out.

 

Good argument for a Planescape thread guys.

 

Only partly true. People need it to exist, evidenced by the fact that they constantly "create" objectivity. Its an human trait, and a way to structure the mind - to create a semblance of order in a chaotic world.

It is fictional to an extent, I agree, but that doesn't invalidate it or make it any less necessary.

[Aram]

No casual gamer would pick up Freespace 2, Half-Life, or Everquest.

I didn't mean casual in the Peggle sense.

[RPGmasterBoo]

@Boo: sounds like you can only recognize art when you are taught that it is art.

 

Rather when you are taught to recognize what makes it art, or put another way - where its value resides and why its exceptional. It could be no other way, knowledge doesn't come out of thin air.

[213374U]

No, which is why inexperienced people do not get a vote. Art is an elite thing - has been and always will be. You have to know the subject thoroughly to reconize the artistic value of it.

That's pretty rich considering that Van Gogh (among others) was horribly underappreciated during his lifetime. I guess his contemporaries believed themselves to be every bit as enlightened as you believe yourself to be.

 

"Art" is make-believe.

[Purkake]

@Boo: sounds like you can only recognize art when you are taught that it is art.

 

Rather when you are taught to recognize what makes it art, or put another way - where its value resides and why its exceptional. It could be no other way, knowledge doesn't come out of thin air.

 

So once thought you could unmistakably pick out art from non-art without being familiar with that specific piece?

 

I maintain that something that is art to one person might not be so for another, even when they are both educated.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Purkake

[RPGmasterBoo]

No, which is why inexperienced people do not get a vote. Art is an elite thing - has been and always will be. You have to know the subject thoroughly to reconize the artistic value of it.

That's pretty rich considering that Van Gogh (among others) was horribly underappreciated during his lifetime. I guess his contemporaries believed themselves to be every bit as enlightened as you believe yourself to be.

 

"Art" is make-believe.

 

Like most artists that explored new forms outside of accepted conventions. Today he's considered exceptional, so what's your point? The acceptance and admiration of his work came later, but that doesnt change the fact that it came about eventually. The passage of time is often important.

 

Planescape Torment was released a decade ago, which is a practically a century in the video game world and we're still talking about it. That's more than 90% of games can claim.

 

I think I know what I'm talking about and I'm not afraid to say it, so sue me. I don't seek anyone's agreement.

 

internet is make-believe. your argument is make-believe. you are make-believe. And poof - you're gone because I suddenly believe that you don't exist.

Only you arent.

Your argument is pointless solipsism. But believe what you want.

[Purkake]

No, which is why inexperienced people do not get a vote. Art is an elite thing - has been and always will be. You have to know the subject thoroughly to reconize the artistic value of it.

That's pretty rich considering that Van Gogh (among others) was horribly underappreciated during his lifetime. I guess his contemporaries believed themselves to be every bit as enlightened as you believe yourself to be.

 

"Art" is make-believe.

Planescape Torment was released a decade ago, which is a practically a century in the video game world and we're still talking about it. That's more than 90% of games can claim.

 

To be fair, we are talking about it because this is the ex-BIS and generally wRPG-oriented forum.

 

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.

[RPGmasterBoo]

So once thought you could unmistakably pick out art from non-art without being familiar with that specific piece?

 

I maintain that something that is art to one person might not be so for another, even when they are both educated.

 

Everyone is fallible, just like the mentioned contemporaries of Van Gogh, recognising lasting value is a very difficult job, and time is often the best judge.

 

I maintain that art is art regardless of personal likes and dislikes, or the capacity of the individual to recognize it as such. I admit to having a moderate knowledge of visual arts/classical music and the rest of what's considered high art. Hence I'm hesitant to pass any opinion apart from like/dislike.

On video games I'm a bit more concrete. I agree to disagree on what is art in that field since that's the only the only way to gather opinions and end up with any sort of objective opinion in the end. Even if none is reached it will still be a valuable discussion.

Much more so than the usual crappy reviews which pass for critical thinking.

[RPGmasterBoo]

To be fair, we are talking about it because this is the ex-BIS and generally wRPG-oriented forum.

 

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.

 

Well Torment repeatedly enters most of the "best games of all time lists", which at the very least means it has earned a place in most critics/gamers memories. That;s a start.

[Craigboy2]

I awoke, on a slab, in what was obviously a mortuary. As I levered myself up, I caught movement from the corner of my eye. A floating skull. No, I realized as it spoke: a floating, talking, skull.

Oh god that is horrible writing.

 

I have printed the entire novelization and the parts where the writer included things to tie the dialog together are functional. He never intended to screw around with the plot, or write a novel but merely to deliver the dialog in a cohesive manner. I have re-read it many times, enjoying it each time. Torment is art.

 

Hey that's my comment!

Edited September 14, 2009 by Craigboy2

[RPGmasterBoo]

[213374U]

Like most artists that explored new forms outside of accepted conventions. Today he's considered exceptional, so what's your point? The acceptance and admiration of his work came later, but that doesnt change the fact that it came about eventually. The passage of time is often important.

 

Planescape Torment was released a decade ago, which is a practically a century in the video game world and we're still talking about it. That's more than 90% of games can claim.

 

I think I know what I'm talking about and I'm not afraid to say it, so sue me. I don't seek anyone's agreement.

My point is that "art" has no intrinsic value - it's worth as much as "experts" say it's worth. And those experts were formed by other experts and so on and so forth. Once in a while, one expert comes along and he's charismatic and/or assertive enough to rock things about a little. Therefore, since there are no intrinsic, immanent qualities or properties to be recognized in "art", you cannot be any better at spotting and appreciating it than anyone else. This isn't just technique and craft we're talking about, right?

 

Yeah, I know you don't care what anyone else says, you're just here to proselytize. Don't get all defensive when you encounter resistance, though.

 

By the way, um, very few people even know about your precious Torment. Get out of your ivory tower once in a while. That's why it's considered a "cult" title, y'know?

 

 

Your argument is pointless solipsism. But believe what you want.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

[RPGmasterBoo]

My point is that "art" has no intrinsic value - it's worth as much as "experts" say it's worth. And those experts were formed by other experts and so on and so forth. Once in a while, one expert comes along and he's charismatic and/or assertive enough to rock things about a little. Therefore, since there are no intrinsic, immanent qualities or properties to be recognized in "art", you cannot be any better at spotting and appreciating it than anyone else. This isn't just technique and craft we're talking about, right?

 

Yeah, I know you don't care what anyone else says, you're just here to proselytize. Don't get all defensive when you encounter resistance, though.

 

By the way, um, very few people even know about your precious Torment. Get out of your ivory tower once in a while. That's why it's considered a "cult" title, y'know?

 

 

Your argument is pointless solipsism. But believe what you want.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

 

"The definition and evaluation of art has become especially problematic since the early 20th century. Richard Wollheim distinguishes three approaches: the Realist, whereby aesthetic quality is an absolute value independent of any human view; the Objectivist, whereby it is also an absolute value, but is dependent on general human experience; and the Relativist position, whereby it is not an absolute value, but depends on, and varies with, the human experience of different humans."

 

It apparent where we stand in this, and that the positions are irreconcilable since they echo a long standing debate. If you indeed adhere to the third position i understand that but i still think its a pointless place to be. Lets leave it at that.

 

proselytize - 1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith

2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause

No, I voice my opinon but I neither have the time or the desire to convince anyone to follow it. If someone does that's nice, if they don't that's nice as well.

 

Out of the 2 billion people in China I'd say 1.9 billion never heard of Caravaggio. So what?

I like my ivory tower. I have guest rooms and serve milk and cookies - and you're all invited.

 

Edited September 14, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

I told you art was nothing but trouble. It's like arguing over religion, nothing good comes of it.

 

So how about that skull, he was pretty funny.

[Stephen Amber]

The cranium rats were too difficult for me. I had to go back to BG2 at the time.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

I shall wait for you in death

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.

 

GoG users seem to disagree - although, again, they are more likely to be biased in favor of the game than, say, a Halo kiddy.

[mr insomniac]

GoG users seem to disagree - although, again, they are more likely to be biased in favor of the game than, say, a Halo kiddy.

Funny to see some similarly named games in the list:

the ever popular Planetscape: Torment.

Planescape: Tournament, which might actually be fun, if it existed.

Planet Escape: Tour.

Plan An Escape, Mel Torme

[Bos_hybrid]

To be fair, we are talking about it because this is the ex-BIS and generally wRPG-oriented forum.

 

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.

 

Well Torment repeatedly enters most of the "best games of all time lists", which at the very least means it has earned a place in most critics/gamers memories. That;s a start.

 

As does Doom, Half Life, BG, KoTOR, Quake, Mario, MGS and Halo. Besides game journalists are paid.

 

 

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.

 

GoG users seem to disagree - although, again, they are more likely to be biased in favor of the game than, say, a Halo kiddy.

 

Again that's a fraction of the gaming community. I voted for SS2.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Bos_hybrid

[Humodour]

Torment was pretty sweet, but it's also a relic of a time long gone, a better time. A time when I was but a bright-eyed kid with a world of possibilities in front of me, now I'm just another jaded fan reminiscing about past glory.

 

I sometimes wonder if it's because I was a kid when I played games like Torment, and now I'm 21.

 

But then I hear people who were 21 when the first played games like Torment say the same thing.

 

Seems the Gaming industry really has lost its spark. The only game that has really grabbed me since the days of HL1, Deus Ex 1, and Torment, is Portal. And I guess I played Diablo 2 until well into 2005.

 

So I'm looking to Valve and Blizzard for hope.

[jero cvmi]

As a 30 year old who played Torment for the first time in 2008, i beg to differ. Torment is great for anyone who enjoys computer DnD, macabre atmosphere, mind boggling quests and well-written walls of text. Age and nostalgia are pretty irrelevant, for me at least.

 

On the other hand, i'm curious how many people here would find Torment's story interesting, if they were completely unfamiliar with the DnD setting. I think it's considered a "niche" game because it's mainly targeted at DnD players.

 

edit: My favorite thing about Torment is that it's set in a fantasy setting, and yet in the whole game there is only 1 magic sword, and you can't use it. I <3 Torment.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Ziggy the Atomic Granpa