Planescape: Torment Topic

[Oner]

...I cannot express my feelings in words.

[Purkake]

Off with you, comicbook peasants! Back to your lairs! Shoo!

 

Back to videogames...

[Oner]

Off with you, comicbook peasants! Back to your lairs! Shoo!

 

Back to videogames...

HEY, I tried to stay on topic with the PST parallel.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Or they could end up like comic books: a unique art form that becomes massively popular among a wide range of demographics but later deteriorates into almost nothing but adolescent male power fantasies as the bulk of 'culture' continues to spurn it.

 

 

I think you got it backwards, it started out as cheap entertainment and later evovled into an artform that has everybit as much range of expressions and artistry as anything else. But they dont sell the good stuff at Wall-mart, obviously, so youll have to go looking.

[Meshugger]

seriously, why everyone thinks that commercial failure = failure of the product... Van Gogh died poor because of commercial failure during his life, but nowadays his paintings are considered as part of the best creations which were ever made by mankind...

 

same will happen with few games aswell, when they start to be taken more seriously like books and movies in the past... And Torment will be one of them...

 

1) you is dreaming if you believe that ps:t will ever be considered an artistic masterpiece = starry night.

...

 

really. am not even gonna argue this. ps:t is our fave game, but if you thinks ps:t ever gets cred as genuine art from some significant portion o' public and academia, then you is deluded.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

To be fair, no videogame has managed something of that magnitude yet.

[Amentep]

Or they could end up like comic books: a unique art form that becomes massively popular among a wide range of demographics but later deteriorates into almost nothing but adolescent male power fantasies as the bulk of 'culture' continues to spurn it.

 

I think you got it backwards, it started out as cheap entertainment and later evovled into an artform that has everybit as much range of expressions and artistry as anything else. But they dont sell the good stuff at Wall-mart, obviously, so youll have to go looking.

 

Not really; comic books in the US started as reprints of comic books that appealed to a wide range of readers. Through the 1940s readership was strong amid kids and teens, but also GIs in WWII. In the 50s the best selling comics, like the horror, crime and romance comics, sold to teens and adults alike in massive numbers.

 

It was the self censorship movement (the Comics Code Authority) that was a reaction to the United States Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency (1954) hearings (so disastrously featured an appearance by EC's Bill Gains) which led the readers away from comic books. This movement was pushed by the kid oriented publishers (of superhero and comedy material that had seen their reader base evaporate) that helped stunt the growth of the medium, pushing out publishers of more adult comic fare in favor of "safer" reading.

 

(To be fair, there was competing products also vying for attention; adults had also began moving into the magazine successor to the pulps - like adventure and romance magazines - and to paperbacks.)

 

Even with the CCA, comics had lost a lot of ground in terms of public perception; the Senate Subcommittee cemented the media as one for kid oriented works, and a lot of parents didn't trust the media and threw the whole industry in a tailspin that wouldn't recover until the second superhero genre boom of the late 50s.

 

Video games are in many ways in the same boats as comics; there are still many who will argue the media of either can never be art (which is a different argument from whether it *is* art now or not) and that their primary purpose is entertaining kids (and adults who should know better. *tsk, tsk*)

Edited September 16, 2009 by Amentep

[Oner]

Actually, comics are also referred to as the 9th art, so it's safe to say they count as art.

[Amentep]

You'll have a lot of people who'll debate you on that point (not me, of course) particularly in academics.

 

We're starting the second century (roughly) of the media/style so again I don't think Video Games are going to get critical content studies (as opposed to critical studies about the effects of games).

[Gromnir]

Actually, comics are also referred to as the 9th art, so it's safe to say they count as art.

 

who refers to comics as the 9th art? is probable some euro-trash affectation.

 

we thinks some comics has risen to level o' art, but am not gonna go so far as to suggest that our personal belief is common or accepted by a significant % o' academics. however, the numbers o' academics who has begun to accept comics as potential art is growing. we saw the beginnings of a shift occur during late 80s. weren't no sea change or anything...

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Purkake]

If any game is ever going to be considered art by the academic community, I feel it will be something that uses the medium to its fullest. Planescape's writing was amazing, perhaps one of the best, but it could almost as well be a pick-your-own-adventure book. The interactivity is really only used to the fullest in dialogue, since then there have been many amazing things done with the genre. Just look at Achron, the time traveling RTS or any other experimental game from the last few GDCs. Games have a long way to go and only a fraction of the medium's true potential has been tapped.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Purkake

[Amentep]

If academics ever decide that gaming is art, something like PST would only ever be discussed as a node on the path to the artistic environment (much as how the early fictional short films are seen; primitive curiosities that hinted at some of the possibilities in the medium)

[RPGmasterBoo]

Actually, comics are also referred to as the 9th art, so it's safe to say they count as art.

 

That's correct, at least in Europe.

[RPGmasterBoo]

If any game is ever going to be considered art by the academic community, I feel it will be something that uses the medium to its fullest. Planescape's writing was amazing, perhaps one of the best, but it could almost as well be a pick-your-own-adventure book. The interactivity is really only used to the fullest in dialogue, since then there have been many amazing things done with the genre. Just look at Achron, the time traveling RTS or any other experimental game from the last few GDCs. Games have a long way to go and only a fraction of the medium's true potential has been tapped.

 

Yet its funny, Shadow of the Colossus offers nothing new at all gameplay wise, but its still a mindblowing experience.

[Oner]

I honestly don't see why a picture can be art but a picture with text can't be.

[Starwars]

I love PS:T, but there's one thing I hate about it. It's that every topic about the game has to be about whether it's art or not.

 

[Purkake]

I love PS:T, but there's one thing I hate about it. It's that every topic about the game has to be about whether it's art or not.

 

 

Good point, but what else is there left to discuss about it? The sequel thread went to hell and back along with the poor woman who made it.

 

Also, blame whoever brought up art. I told back then that the art discussion won't ever go anywhere.

 

@Oner: There are better books and better movies, video games need to do something unique with the medium that differentiates them from other forms of art.

 

@Boo: Shadow of the Colossus would be the PST of console gamers. A game that was buggy all over, didn't sell all that well(AFAIK) and went largely unnoticed. Now everyone is yelling it's artsy-ness as loud as they can.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Purkake

[Humodour]

I love PS:T, but there's one thing I hate about it. It's that every topic about the game has to be about whether it's art or not.

 

 

Of course it's art.

[entrerix]

im sticking with my 30 years from now the games industry will be recognized as having roughly the same artistic merit as the film industry. including emotionless noise cannons like transformers, and more serious works like (fill in your favorite art-house type film here)

 

those of you who think it will take as long as comic books may be right, but i think that videogames will move quickly to the same level of recognition as film. 30 years (or less) quickly.

 

 

for the record: it totally blows my mind that the greater population thinks writing without pictures is art, and pictures without writing is art but writing with pictures is not art

Edited September 16, 2009 by entrerix

[Gromnir]

for the record: it totally blows my mind that the greater population thinks writing without pictures is art, and pictures without writing is art but writing with pictures is not art

 

what greater population is you talking 'bout?

 

the greater population that Gromnir knows does not think that writing without pictures equals art. get a bill in the mail from electric company. not art. memo from boss 'bout excessive bathroom breaks or misuse o' lunchroom microwave. not art. similarly, am not certain o' the public you reference that believes pictures without writing is art. picture of a crappy desk that somebody is trying to sell on craigslist for $200. not art. picture of what your lawn will look like if you use Miracle-Gro. not art. you people is being silly. pictures and writing not got some kinda wacky Art free pass from... anybody.

 

has nothing to do with pictures and writing. is more than a few illustrated kids books that is probably considered art by mainstream. ever seen what some o' those pre-printing press illustrated bibles auction for? is Comics that ain't easily embraced as art.

 

what is difference 'tween comics and other forms o' illustrated books? not much, but perception is hard to shake. even so, is no writing + pictures = crap. is Comics = crap. is no different than pr0n. is any reason that pr0n can't be art? probable not, but given the target audience and fact that there ain't no widely accepted Art pr0n, the genre faces a serious uphill battle in gaining recognition... not that the pr0n industry is concerned 'bout lack o' academic respect. regardless, quit with the silly pictures + writing nonsense.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 17, 2009 by Gromnir

[Gizmo]

I was in a coffee shop a couple of days ago, and there were these 4'x'4' canvases covered edge to edge with brown paper, shaped like letters, and spelling out the song lyrics to "Big Chief". ~Art?

 

Planescape was art in the same way that a mechanical gold watch (perhaps with filigree patterns on the inside gears) is art. *Even if no one but the watch maker ever sees it.

 

Art = skill; old world trade crafts are sometimes referred to as arts. In Fantasy literature, the wizards trade is

"the art" (also called the dark arts). A work of art is always a work of skill ~but works of skill are not always works of art. Personally I don't hold random abstract paintings as art, (random is not skill), but I would not say that abstract art can't be the product of skill ~those that are count as art in my book.

 

Planescape tickles the mind in a artful way, and I'm sure its deliberate ~So Planescape will always be art to me.

[Mamoulian War]

seriously, why everyone thinks that commercial failure = failure of the product... Van Gogh died poor because of commercial failure during his life, but nowadays his paintings are considered as part of the best creations which were ever made by mankind...

 

same will happen with few games aswell, when they start to be taken more seriously like books and movies in the past... And Torment will be one of them...

 

1) you is dreaming if you believe that ps:t will ever be considered an artistic masterpiece = starry night.

...

 

really. am not even gonna argue this. ps:t is our fave game, but if you thinks ps:t ever gets cred as genuine art from some significant portion o' public and academia, then you is deluded.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

To be fair, no videogame has managed something of that magnitude yet.

 

because games are about 70 years younger than movies and more than few hundred years younger than books

[Gromnir]

seriously, why everyone thinks that commercial failure = failure of the product... Van Gogh died poor because of commercial failure during his life, but nowadays his paintings are considered as part of the best creations which were ever made by mankind...

 

same will happen with few games aswell, when they start to be taken more seriously like books and movies in the past... And Torment will be one of them...

 

1) you is dreaming if you believe that ps:t will ever be considered an artistic masterpiece = starry night.

...

 

really. am not even gonna argue this. ps:t is our fave game, but if you thinks ps:t ever gets cred as genuine art from some significant portion o' public and academia, then you is deluded.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

To be fair, no videogame has managed something of that magnitude yet.

 

because games are about 70 years younger than movies and more than few hundred years younger than books

 

games is probable older than human species.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Humodour]

A good definition for art would be anything which requires creative endeavour.

[RPGmasterBoo]

@Boo: Shadow of the Colossus would be the PST of console gamers. A game that was buggy all over, didn't sell all that well(AFAIK) and went largely unnoticed. Now everyone is yelling it's artsy-ness as loud as they can.

 

It wasn't buggy at all on my PS2, dunno where you got that from. Did you actually play it?

[Mamoulian War]

games is probable older than human species.

 

You know very good i was talking about computer/console games... and they are definately not older than human species