Kotaku article!

[Syraxis]

Sounds like he's attempting to stir up controversy to bring in page views for the site, wouldn't be the first time either.

 

Gaming "journalism"

Uh, Kotaku didn't actually write the piece on misogyny. That was Gamecritic.

 

Linking to articles on other sites is actually a function of legitimate news aggregation blogs like Kotaku.

 

 

I skimmed through the article to be honest, there's my consequence.

[J.E. Sawyer]

The process of romance in video games is transactional

The process of virtually all interactions in video games is transactional. Replace "sex" with any other thing you can cause to happen in a video game and think about how often your interaction with a character continues significantly after you reach the end of a plot/quest chain.

 

The protagonist is often the most active driving force in the game universe (hence the designation), and typically in all relationships the protagonist dominates where the relationship goes. In almost all cases, these relationships are either purely background/informational/chatty or they are part of a quest. Quests are pretty much all transactional. Once both parties have what they want, the protagonist leaves and starts pursuing another quest/plot chain. Remove sex from the equation in AP and you still have a male character effectively running around trying to get people to do what he wants and/or shooting them in the face.

[Slowtrain]

But that's cool. it'll teach them to be less stupid and naive in real life and know that nothing is for certain, and that relationships dont work the way they suppose them to. There is a good lesson in that frustration.

I very much doubt V:TMB taught anybody anything. A game can't teach life lessons when every other game contradicts it. Insofar as misogyny is concerned, they contribute to and enforce a larger narrative about the nature of gender politics that is pushed implicitly through every media imaginable.

 

 

Eh. If you are seriously going to go down that road, it seems to me video games are far more misanthropic than misogynistic.

 

But I don't see the intentionality at work to deserve either label.

 

Maybe games can be read as markers to what is swimming around in the cultural subconscious backwaters of all of us.

 

But even that is probably giving games more value than they deserve.

[Slowtrain]

The process of romance in video games is transactional

The process of virtually all interactions in video games is transactional. Replace "sex" with any other thing you can cause to happen in a video game and think about how often your interaction with a character continues significantly after you reach the end of a plot/quest chain.

 

The protagonist is often the most active driving force in the game universe (hence the designation), and typically in all relationships the protagonist dominates where the relationship goes. In almost all cases, these relationships are either purely background/informational/chatty or they are part of a quest. Quests are pretty much all transactional. Once both parties have what they want, the protagonist leaves and starts pursuing another quest/plot chain. Remove sex from the equation in AP and you still have a male character effectively running around trying to get people to do what he wants and/or shooting them in the face.

 

 

The process of "the romance" in games is a minigame just as much as lockpicking or hacking is nowadays, minus the UI.

 

Gamers should be expected to treat it as such. They want to succeed and win.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'm going to include an "I just want to be friends" minigame that culminates in talking about reality TV and maybe getting a grilled cheese sandwich.

[Slowtrain]

I'm going to include an "I just want to be friends" minigame that culminates in talking about reality TV and maybe getting a grilled cheese sandwich.

 

 

That's kind of like roleplaying a baker class.

[lord of flies]

Yeah, there's definitely some valid points in here. Especially the way that games tend to treat sex as the "end point" of relationships, but also with respect to the "keep talking to me and I'll have sex with you" thought process. That definitely really came through in Mass Effect, much more than in KotOR.

 

I think that the argument that "Yeah, well, that applies to everything," isn't quite proper. Many games succeed at creating close relationships with secondary characters, and probably the best way to do this is to make relationships two-way. In most video games with sex, you "put in" something (time in conversation, monsters killed, et cetera) and "get out" something (sex) at the end. However, video games which involve characters who contribute directly, consistently, show a much better ability to make you bond with these characters. Further, many "dating simulators" manage to make you empathize with the female characters; I'd highly recommend "Narcissu" (available free online) if you want to see how it's done.

 

Ultimately though, I think that despite the "collect them all" sort of lingo that Obsidian has used, this game will probably fall more on the feminist side of the equation, through interesting, developed characters (Obsidian being well known for this) and continued relations after sex.

Edited August 30, 2009 by lord of flies

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

You didn't actually have sex in KotOR. Oh sure, the kiss was off-screen, but it was still better than ME's romance.

[Nepenthe]

It's more accurate to say I am intellectually superior to the vast majority of gamers and I like to flex on dumbass mother****ers.

 

[RPGmasterBoo]

Well there is an easy way to end this discussion

 

Crashgirl, as the only woman insane enough to waste your time here, do tell us if you wish the 4 steamy sex scenes cut from Alpha Protocol?

[lord of flies]

Well there is an easy way to end this discussion

 

Crashgirl, as the only woman insane enough to waste your time here, do tell us if you wish the 4 steamy sex scenes cut from Alpha Protocol?

You assume that I am not a woman.

[RPGmasterBoo]

The Trotsky, anarcho syndicalist references and general political aptitude did it for me.

 

oooo that came of as sexist

[lord of flies]

The Trotsky, anarcho syndicalist references and general political aptitude did it for me.

 

oooo that came of as sexist

Rosa Luxemburg, bitch. Look it up.

[RPGmasterBoo]

The Trotsky, anarcho syndicalist references and general political aptitude did it for me.

 

oooo that came of as sexist

Rosa Luxemburg, bitch. Look it up.

 

I study political theory/international relations.

 

I was just being mildly insulting

[Karranthain]

Yeah, there's definitely some valid points in here. Especially the way that games tend to treat sex as the "end point" of relationships, but also with respect to the "keep talking to me and I'll have sex with you" thought process. That definitely really came through in Mass Effect, much more than in KotOR.

 

Sure, but in both on those games both male-female and female-male relationships suffered from that. That's why I agree with CrashGirl:

Video games are way too shallow to be misogynistic.

 

 

They're just simplistic.

 

Video games aren't a platform suitable to explore human relationships, as simple as that. When they do tackle such complex subjects it ultimately has to come off as shallow (yes, shallow, not misogynistic, misantrophic, misandric or whatever). But video game developers have no pretense of trying to potray such subjects accurately. We're talking about a form of entertainment here.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Further, many "dating simulators" manage to make you empathize with the female characters; I'd highly recommend "Narcissu" (available free online) if you want to see how it's done.

Narcissu isn't interactive though; the viewer really has no active role in what the Protagonist is doing. It's also entirely about two characters who literally have nothing to do but wait around to die.

[ironcreed]

I'm going to include an "I just want to be friends" minigame that culminates in talking about reality TV and maybe getting a grilled cheese sandwich.

 

 

That's kind of like roleplaying a baker class.

 

Wait, are you sure you that you aren't talking about a game on the Wii? (I kid, I kid)

[RPGmasterBoo]

Further, many "dating simulators" manage to make you empathize with the female characters; I'd highly recommend "Narcissu" (available free online) if you want to see how it's done.

Narcissu isn't interactive though; the viewer really has no active role in what the Protagonist is doing. It's also entirely about two characters who literally have nothing to do but wait around to die.

 

 

Dunno why you wasted your time replying to that Gamecritics article - its an obvious flame bait, nothing more.

 

Oh, it was apparently written by a woman, and the first reply sums it up pretty much even if it is heavy handed:

 

This is what passes for critical thinking around here?

 

Awful college aged feminazi ranting about how video games will turn teenagers into serial rapists or serial Johns, trying to pay women for sex all of the time?

...

There are no 'disturbing' trends in games. it's a game. dont like the content? don't buy it. complaining about this stuff is the adult version of "billy keeps making fun of me because I like X!! make him stop" Pathetic.

 

And a more balanced opinion by a guy named Mike

Secondly, I don't think it's the responsibility of games or any other work of artistic fiction to present "realistic" attitudes or choices regarding sexuality. Must we ensure that 5% of the sexual choices in all games with sexual choices are homosexual, since that is a rough approximation of the demographics of homosexuality? Nonsense. If developers of a game like Alpha Protocol want to depict a machismo chauvinist who charms women into sex for his personal or professional gain, then more power to them — it's a fictional character. If developers of a game like Mass Effect want to portray more meaningful relationship and dabble in inter-species lesbianism, more power to them, too. The author never supports the assertion that it's "dangerous" to portray machismo fictional characters, nor is there anything intrinsically unrealistic about chauvinistic charmers who seduce lots of women for their own ends.

Edited August 30, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Bos_hybrid]

Crashgirl, as the only woman insane enough to waste your time here, do tell us if you wish the 4 steamy sex scenes cut from Alpha Protocol?

 

Well he can, but I think you want a she.

[Guest PoziomyPion]

Instead of talking about sex, let's have sex!

 

Anyway believe it or not , there are women(and men) who want to be treated in bed like a reward for their sexual partner.

 

It's like Hi <bangbang> kthxbye it was fun, see ya later!

 

I hate when journalists try defendind honour of all the women , men or some minorities when a big bunch of them is content with how the things are.

What kind of reward was sex in Baldur's Gate or Mass Effect anyway? You could skip it altogether, you didn't have to bed 20 characters in 20 minutes and be rewarded with 1000 gold pieces. A piece of Liara's ass was a reward? Well maybe, but it depends on how old you are.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Crashgirl, as the only woman insane enough to waste your time here, do tell us if you wish the 4 steamy sex scenes cut from Alpha Protocol?

 

Well he can, but I think you want a she.

 

I cant get the hang of what gender you people are trying to be. the Trotsky is a woman, and the Crashgirl is a man. Its like watching anime for christs sakes.

[lord of flies]

Narcissu isn't interactive though; the viewer really has no active role in what the Protagonist is doing.

True. But I was really just recommending it because I wanted to depress someone. :twisted: There are plenty of dating sims which succeed at making you empathize with the characters and have large interactivity, though.

It's also entirely about two characters who literally have nothing to do but wait around to die.

Uh, I think you're misrepresenting the plot here?

Instead of talking about sex, let's have sex!

 

Anyway believe it or not , there are women(and men) who want to be treated in bed like a reward for their sexual partner.

 

It's like Hi <bangbang> kthxbye it was fun, see ya later!

 

I hate when journalists try defendind honour of all the women , men or some minorities when a big bunch of them is content with how the things are.

I'm gonna just pretend I made a reference to house slaves here.

[Zoma]

Narcissu has awesome music. nuff said.

 

But no Japanese visual novel is ever more depressing than the one and only "Kana Imouto". Prepare to eat your heart out.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Zoma

[RPGmasterBoo]

I hate when journalists try defendind honour of all the women , men or some minorities when a big bunch of them is content with how the things are.

 

Its a woman, to make matters worse. In fact, in depth reading of the article leads me to the conclusion that she is a feminist lesbian and:

1. angry that the main character is a male who can bed several women

2. angry that the main character wont be turned down in a humiliating manner by an openly gay woman

The first offends her feminist sensibilities, the latter her lesbian side.

I can't stress enough how ridiculous this article is.

[Guest PoziomyPion]

Well it's just like Resident Evil 5 and racist accusations aimed at Capcom all over again. Just take something from the game(out of context) twist it around and start ranting. And remember to put a banner of your site's sponsor in a visible place .