FO:NV

[HoonDing]

One word: No More Level Scaling!

 

 

Serisly, swapping a world full of mole rats for a world for of Yao Guai is preposterous. If that's where you want go , then just fill the world with Yao Guai from the start and be done with it.

There are Yao Guai & Deathclaws at level 1 in the western part of the map. I don't think there's level scaling, only area scaling.

[mkreku]

I like the idea of repairing stuff in CRPG's, but I also thought the constant need of repairing everything you used in Fallout 3 was boring. Blizzard once said that they always ask this question when they're implementing a gameplay mechanic: is it fun? If the answer is no, they scrap it. I wouldn't scrap repairing, but I would definitely change the repair skill.

 

What I liked about the repair was that it made weapons differ from each other. Fallout 3 suffered from having just one or two different weapons in each category of weapons (like Assault rifle -> Chinese assault rifle -> one unique weapon). The repair skill combined with the different conditions in which the weapons you found were made them at least differ slightly, if only for a short while. I would like to expand on that differentiation.

 

What I found boring about repairing/condition in Fallout 3 was that everything degraded way too fast so you needed thirteen spares just to be able to maintain a high enough level of condition. My solution to this would be to remove the degradation altogether. Instead I would balance this out by making high condition items very rare. The repair skill would be able to combine two low condition items for one with only very slightly higher condition (5% cond assault rifle + 5% cond assault rifle = 6% cond assault rifle, for example). A low condition item would not be able to repair a (much) higher condition item at all. Otherwise the repair skill would work as before, as in you can only repair up to your own skill.

 

The benefits of this system:

 

1) The items would have a distinct feel of improvement, as they'd "level up" at approximately the same rate as you do.

2) No need to carry vast amounts of spares. You'd only utilize the ones you found immediately, if they were applicable.

3) It just wasn't fun seeing your weapon/armour go from perfect condition to barely functioning from a single encounter. This no-fun factor would be eliminated.

4) Better quest rewards/loot rewards. Finding a common item in high condition would actually be worth something.

5) It would be easy to make different condition state tables. For example:

 

Assault rifle:

<10% cond: worn assault rifle (base weapon settings)

10-19% cond: assault rifle, 5% higher rate of fire, 5% higher damage output

20-29% cond: sturdy assault rifle, 10% higher rate of fire, 10% higher damage output

30-39% cond: well-kept assault rifle, 10% higher rate of fire, 10% higher damage output, 10% faster reload

40-49% cond: polished assault rifle, 15% higher rate of fire, 15% higher damage output, 15% faster reload

50-59% cond: modified assault rifle (50% bigger magazine), 20% higher rate of fire, 20% higher damage output, 20% faster reload

60-69% cond: highly modified assault rifle (50% bigger magazine), 25% higher rate of fire, 25% higher damage output, 25% faster reload

70-79% cond: precision assault rifle (50% bigger magazine), 30% higher rate of fire, 30% higher damage output, 30% faster reload, 10% better accuracy

80-89% cond: high precision assault rifle (50% bigger magazine), 35% higher rate of fire, 35% higher damage output, 35% faster reload, 20% better accuracy

90-99% cond: scoped assault rifle (50% bigger magazine, zoom function), 40% higher rate of fire, 40% higher damage output, 40% faster reload, 30% better accuracy

100% cond: sniper assault rifle (50% bigger magazine, zoom function), 50% higher rate of fire, 50% higher damage output, 50% faster reload, 50% better accuracy

 

These tables would obviously be very different from weapon type to weapon type. I would also apply them to armour.

[Slowtrain]

One word: No More Level Scaling!

 

 

Serisly, swapping a world full of mole rats for a world for of Yao Guai is preposterous. If that's where you want go , then just fill the world with Yao Guai from the start and be done with it.

There are Yao Guai & Deathclaws at level 1 in the western part of the map. I don't think there's level scaling, only area scaling.

 

 

There are a small number of areas that have high level enemies regardless of level, but most of the world is level scaled.

 

It IS much more well done than Oblivion, however. I would just like to see them go the rest of the way and eliminate it all together. There's nothing good that can be said about level scaling.

[Slowtrain]

@mkreku: That sounds like a great idea. I'm all for armor and weapon repair if it can be done without a great deal of tediousness and manage to add variety to the game.

 

For a long time I thought SS2 had fastest degrading weapons in a game. Then I played Fallout 3.

[Atom523]

I do like what mkreku has to say about the weapon degradation but I would add that you should occasionally find high quality weapons in low level areas and low quality weapons in high level areas. I have always disliked the game mechanic that equipment slowly gets stronger along your journey, it never made any sense. The world shouldn't revolve around you and your abilities.

I think that in the generic wasteland yeah we should find crappy equipment, but lets say in a locked vault, or an intact storage area there should always be higher quality things. Very organized armies or police groups should have above average quality equipment. Your average raiders would have mostly crappy stuff with a few good ones that their leaders would have.

 

I do agree though that the repair skill should restore less then what it did in Fallout 3 though. You should have a weapon that you care about, one that you improve over the course of the game that you can modify and enhance if you choose to. You want to use an American assault rifle rather then a Chinese one? Well put the time and effort into it and it will be better, that kind of thing. You want to use that revolver well work with it and boom it is a useful weapon.

Fallout 3 had too many useless weapons and that never should be the case with this kind of game.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Assault rifle:

10-19% cond: assault rifle, 5% higher rate of fire, 5% higher damage output

20-29% cond: sturdy assault rifle, 10% higher rate of fire, 10% higher damage output

30-39% cond: well-kept assault rifle, 10% higher rate of fire, 10% higher damage output, 10% faster reload

40-49% cond: polished assault rifle, 15% higher rate of fire, 15% higher damage output, 15% faster reload

50-59% cond: modified assault rifle (50% bigger magazine), 20% higher rate of fire, 20% higher damage output, 20% faster reload

60-69% cond: highly modified assault rifle (50% bigger magazine), 25% higher rate of fire, 25% higher damage output, 25% faster reload

70-79% cond: precision assault rifle (50% bigger magazine), 30% higher rate of fire, 30% higher damage output, 30% faster reload, 10% better accuracy

80-89% cond: high precision assault rifle (50% bigger magazine), 35% higher rate of fire, 35% higher damage output, 35% faster reload, 20% better accuracy

90-99% cond: scoped assault rifle (50% bigger magazine, zoom function), 40% higher rate of fire, 40% higher damage output, 40% faster reload, 30% better accuracy

100% cond: sniper assault rifle (50% bigger magazine, zoom function), 50% higher rate of fire, 50% higher damage output, 50% faster reload, 50% better accuracy

 

These tables would obviously be very different from weapon type to weapon type. I would also apply them to armour.

You may be doing this intentionally, but this table results in weapon efficacy that increases at a rate that is more than the sum of its individual geometric progressions and features. That is, an 80% COND high precision assault rifle is more than twice as effective as a 40% COND polished assault rifle.

[Enoch]

I'll third mkreku's idea. It'll be tricky to balance what you can find (i.e., what people with 0 repair skill will be using) and what a high-repair character can patch together. Perhaps a role for shopkeeper repair would be appropriate-- when you're in the barter interface, and the seller has an item that can be used to repair the weapon/armor you're currently using, give the player a choice to have the shopkeeper use it to repair your stuff for a few more caps than you would spend purchasing it. It could be a quest reward, too: bring 10 porno mags to Skeeter and get a 5% condition upgrade to an item of your choice.

[Slowtrain]

I wouldn't be opposed to removing the player repair skill and having all repair having to be done by an NPC. Similar to STALKER:CS. Weapon degradation rates would have to be slowed significantly however so that you wouldn't have to keep running back to an NPC for weapon and armor repair after every battle.

 

Another option would be to have better classes of weapons that degrade at a slower rate. Those would definitely be worth finding.

 

 

Regardless, I think, as this thread has shown, there are many possible changes to the weapon and armor repair mechanics of Fallout 3 that are both more interesting AND less annoying. Which is kind of a win/win.

[jaguars4ever]

Just give me generic repairs kits and I'll settle for that. Have the repair skill affect the number of kits used, hp recovery, and of course, quest solutions. I don't want micromanaging tedium; I want a gameplay mechanic that is fun, simple, & addictive. If I wanted to play a blacksmithing sim, I'd play Arcanum FFS!

[entrerix]

i'll fourth or fifth or whatever mkreku's idea, obviously the chart itself would be tweaked for balance as needed but the idea is much better than vanilla f3. of course, it might be possible with a mod too, but it would be a pretty comprehensive one that takes a while for someone to make, i imagine.

 

that said, a simple repair kit idea is ok too, with high end weapons needing more kits, and lower skill using more kits to accomplish the same as a higher skill. both of those ideas are less annoying than vanilla f3's carrying around 5 of each weapon because none of them have similar parts...

[HoonDing]

Carrying around spare weapons wasn't really necessary with so many human enemies around. Kill them, take their weapon and repair yours on the spot. I also had the impression weapons degraded less fast with high repair skill, though I could be wrong.

 

Most of the unique weapons all have a very high durability, too, compared to their lesser cousins. Especially the unique plasma rifle & lincoln's repeater.

[mkreku]

...but I would add that you should occasionally find high quality weapons in low level areas and low quality weapons in high level areas.

I fully agree with this, but that is up to the world designers. It's their job to make sure the player is rewarded well enough and that the explorer types get their share of extra wealth too.

 

Assault rifle:

40-49% cond: polished assault rifle, 15% higher rate of fire, 15% higher damage output, 15% faster reload

80-89% cond: high precision assault rifle (50% bigger magazine), 35% higher rate of fire, 35% higher damage output, 35% faster reload, 20% better accuracy

You may be doing this intentionally, but this table results in weapon efficacy that increases at a rate that is more than the sum of its individual geometric progressions and features. That is, an 80% COND high precision assault rifle is more than twice as effective as a 40% COND polished assault rifle.

I was thinking that a base weapon would never be useless unless it was completely broken. So by base weapon setting (the worn assault rifle), I was thinking something along the lines of: 20 DAM, 100 rounds per minute, 3.0 second reload, 20 round magazine.

 

Using those base settings:

40% cond polished assault rifle: 23 DAM, 115 rounds per minute, 2.55 second reload, 20 round magazine.

80% cond high precision assault rifle: 27 DAM, 135 rounds per minute, 1.95 second reload and a 30 round magazine (plus the improved accuracy).

 

So, no, the 80% cond weapon would not be twice as effective as the 40% cond weapon, but there is a discernible difference. And there should be! With this system you'd need something like 5-10 40% cond weapons to improve one weapon up to the next level (50% cond), as items would only be able to repair each other within their own cond level.

 

Of course, this is just a rough idea. I am pretty sure professional game designers would make it much more balanced than this.

 

I'll third mkreku's idea. It'll be tricky to balance what you can find (i.e., what people with 0 repair skill will be using) and what a high-repair character can patch together. Perhaps a role for shopkeeper repair would be appropriate-- when you're in the barter interface, and the seller has an item that can be used to repair the weapon/armor you're currently using, give the player a choice to have the shopkeeper use it to repair your stuff for a few more caps than you would spend purchasing it. It could be a quest reward, too: bring 10 porno mags to Skeeter and get a 5% condition upgrade to an item of your choice.

I really like this idea! In none of the Fallout 3 sessions I've played have I ever spent a single cap on letting someone repair stuff for me. Having the repair skill be such a valuable asset as to have a player spend thousands of caps to improve their favourite weapon would be really neat. And the quest idea is good too! Not that I remember any porno mags in Fallout 3 though. Unfortunately.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Removing the Repair skill's "ceiling" on maximum COND would eliminate a lot of instances (most, I'd say) where people are carrying around spare copies of equipment just to maintain their gear. For example, if you have a Repair skill that limits your hunting rifle to 30% of its maximum COND, you pretty much have to carry other hunting rifles around because you're only dealing with a 30% spread from "as good as it can be" (for you) to totally broken.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I was thinking that a base weapon would never be useless unless it was completely broken. So by base weapon setting (the worn assault rifle), I was thinking something along the lines of: 20 DAM, 100 rounds per minute, 3.0 second reload, 20 round magazine.

 

Using those base settings:

40% cond polished assault rifle: 23 DAM, 115 rounds per minute, 2.55 second reload, 20 round magazine.

80% cond high precision assault rifle: 27 DAM, 135 rounds per minute, 1.95 second reload and a 30 round magazine (plus the improved accuracy).

 

So, no, the 80% cond weapon would not be twice as effective as the 40% cond weapon, but there is a discernible difference. And there should be! With this system you'd need something like 5-10 40% cond weapons to improve one weapon up to the next level (50% cond), as items would only be able to repair each other within their own cond level.

Sorry, I should have written that the increase in efficacy is more than double, not the total efficacy. That is, a 15% damage increase to a 35% damage increase (over base) is "only" a 20% jump, but when taken in the context with the other increases actually results in much MOAR DAMAGE.

 

Polished AR shoots 1.9 rounds per second at 23 DAM per round. You fire 20 rounds before reloading (after 10.5 seconds). A reload takes 2.55 seconds, so there will be a reload at 10.5/23.55/36.6/49.65. Four reloads @ 2.55 seconds each is 10.2 seconds of "dead time". Assuming all rounds hit, you will hit with 95 (rounded up) shots doing 23 DAM = 2185 total DAM/36.4 DPS in a minute of sustained fire.

 

High precision AR shoots 2.25 rounds per second at 27 DM. You fire 30 rounds before reloading (after 13.3 seconds). A reload takes 1.95 seconds, so there will be a reload at 13.3/28.55/43.8/59.05. Four reloads @ 1.95 seconds each is 7.8 seconds of "dead time". Assuming all rounds hit, you will hit with 117 (rounded down) shots doing 27 DAM = 3159 total DAM/52.7 DPS in a minute of sustained fire.

 

Practically speaking, that means a 44% increase (between polished and high precision) in total damage before accuracy is taken into consideration. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when multiple statistics are being manipulated concurrently, balancing does become much more challenging and time consuming. I also believe that from a "feel" perspective, it is better to change fewer statistics more dramatically than it is to change many statistics in small increments. It may arguably be more realistic to change many statistics (depending on what you're doing), but often tuning is much more time consuming and, more importantly, the differences do not feel individually as meaningful. Can a player feel the difference between 1.9 rounds per second and 2.25 rounds per second? Maybe (more likely with automatic weapons than semi-auto), but it's relatively slight. If DAM remained fixed, you could increase the rate of fire even more on the upper-end weapons. You'd still likely arrive at a very similar DPS, but the weapon itself would feel like it had changed more (because one palpable aspect, its RoF, has). You could also work it the other way: fix the RoF and increase the DAM more dramatically. Creatures become more likely to drop in fewer shots, making the weapon feel more different than if DPS had been increased by slightly bumping both DAM and RoF.

 

Currently, F3's Repair/COND have an enormous impact on weapon power even though (IMO) the palpable differences are hard to tell except at the extreme ends. I think a big part of that is due to the fact that COND affects so many statistics in such small increments.

[J.E. Sawyer]

One other thing I would like to see folks discuss is how they feel about the spectrum of cond/power on a few weapons vs. a smaller spectrum on more weapons. That is, is it better to have a small number of weapons that scale a lot in power with their condition OR is it better to have a large number of weapons that scale less? Can be specific to F3, but any games or examples will do.

[Slowtrain]

One other thing I would like to see folks discuss is how they feel about the spectrum of cond/power on a few weapons vs. a smaller spectrum on more weapons. That is, is it better to have a small number of weapons that scale a lot in power with their condition OR is it better to have a large number of weapons that scale less? Can be specific to F3, but any games or examples will do.

 

 

Are you asking if we'd like to see a smaller number of total weapons in the game but have their damage increase (and decrease) dramatically depending on condition vs having a large number of weapons in game but having their damage not change all that much depending on condition?

[Slowtrain]

Currently, F3's Repair/COND have an enormous impact on weapon power even though (IMO) the palpable differences are hard to tell except at the extreme ends. I think a big part of that is due to the fact that COND affects so many statistics in such small increments.

 

 

It becomes even less noticable when the weapon skill is taken into account as well.

 

For example: if your current small guns skill gives you only 40% of a weapon's total efficiency, then any apparent gains from the repair skill will be reduced by 60%. So it will only be at 100% skill in small guns that you will see the full effect of the the gains provided by the repair. Which make it even more difficult to see the benefit. Especially for people like me who play most of the game with their weapon skills at 50% or less.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Are you asking if we'd like to see a smaller number of total weapons in the game but have their damage increase (and decrease) dramatically depending on condition vs having a large number of weapons in game but having their damage not change all that much depending on condition?

Yes, but don't hesitate to freestyle that into related topics. I'm just curious.

 

It becomes even less noticable when the weapon skill is taken into account as well.

 

For example: if your current small guns skill gives you only 40% of a weapon's total efficiency, then any apparent gains from the repair skill will be reduced by 60%. So it will only be at 100% skill in small guns that you will see the full effect of the the gains provided by the repair. Which make it even more difficult to see the benefit. Especially for people like me who play most of the game with their weapon skills at 50% or less.

Yes. Gunplay in F3 is a system comprised of many subsystems that derive sliding scale values that often feed into individual variables. There are many formulae used to arrive at each final value, which together determines how guns work and feel in the game. In the most basic sense, you have the statistics from the weapon itself, the values derived from weapon skill, and the values derived from COND. You also have your stance (standing or crouching), your movement state (stationary, walking, running), your aim state (aimed or unaimed), and your limb statuses. It's a lot of stuff.

[jero cvmi]

i don't understand the correlation of number of different weapons vs. how much condition affects damage. For me, what's important is to have different weapons that are actually different, which means each one has its own benefits and drawbacks and suits a certain playstyle, and that these pros and cons are balanced so that i don't ultimately always use the same weapon.

 

For example: in Fallout 2, you could decide wether you want close quarters carnage and pick the sawed off shotgun, or open air sniper action and go for the hunting rifle. Equally powerful, awesome and memorable, different styles. And that extended for most guns, all had their benefits and drawbacks, you picked your favourite ones that suited your playstyle and most of the time it was a nice gaming experience.

 

Then again there's Fallout 3, where you just find a chinese rifle and stop worrying about small guns.

 

 

As for the condition/ damage thing, i think it's a different issue. Basically i think it's accuracy that should decrease with condition, not damage.

 

Also: how about bringing back AP/FMJ/JHP ammo types?

[Aristes]

I'd just like to chime in with support for the idea that weapon degradation should be limited or removed. I approach these things from a practical matter and it was more work than fun. In fact, it really wasn't fun at all, especially in light of the weight restrictions. Like Gromnir said in an earlier thread, the weight restrictions didn't stop me from hording loot and cash. It merely made it more work. Since you never know when you're going to achieve critical mass in terms of loot and cash in any particular title, that means I feel compelled to be super careful a lot longer than necessary on the original run.

 

In regards to your question, Sawyer, I don't know that it must be an either/or choice. I think there should be a variety of weapons and that the power and condition should play a big role player choice, but including a selection of rare weapons where the condition is not subject to rapid degradation would really make discovery a lot of fun. If it comes down to more variety with less reliance on condition, I think a greater variety is more important. Having condition play a role is good, but making it a chore for the player is not. As far as the repair skill goes, I'm sure that the current design helps lend more impact in terms of player reward, but it also makes it a pain in the ass. Repair is a substandard minigame in Fallout 3. Science and lockpicking work much better in that regard in that at least they build into true minigames as opposed to a half-assed attempt to make players feel like they weren't complete fools for plugging points in the repair skill. mkreku's solution works pretty well without dramatically changing things (and therefore pissing off the players). I'd be happy with scrapping it and just making sure there are some ways of using repair in the game, like on things in the environment (maybe elevators for example) and the like.

 

I've been lurking in and out of this thread for a while, so if someone has already said this stuff, accept my apologies and take my comments as support for your original statement.

[mkreku]

One other thing I would like to see folks discuss is how they feel about the spectrum of cond/power on a few weapons vs. a smaller spectrum on more weapons. That is, is it better to have a small number of weapons that scale a lot in power with their condition OR is it better to have a large number of weapons that scale less? Can be specific to F3, but any games or examples will do.

If I had a choice, I would definitely prefer a smaller spectrum on more weapons. The system I suggested was kind of an emergency solution on how to make the 1-2 weapons within each weapon type feel more interesting without upping the number of gun types. But having more guns and making the cond spectrum smaller would make weapons way more interesting (and perhaps more realistic). Even though it's just a game, it irks me to see a weapon go from 20 damage to 40 damage just because I repaired it.

[jero cvmi]

I'd like to add that when something happens all the time, it's as uninteresting as when it doesn't happen at all, with the exception that it might also become tiresome. Weapons and armor wearing down all the time was tiresome and the novelty wore out pretty fast. I' d prefer that armor would get damaged only if the player got critically hit, and that the concept of critical miss/weapon jam was reintroduced to damage weapons.

[Llyranor]

Small spectrum on more weapons. Make the weapons *feel* different so that players actually try them out rather than sticking with one because they're used to it and the other ones are too similar to it. Now, one potential issue is that if there are 'too many' weapons, some players will just pick one they like and leave the rest to waste, whereas if it were 'more spectrum/fewer weaps' they'd stick with maybe 1 or 2, but given the increase in spectrum, they'd still feel an improvement in it as they proceed through the game. But then, that's the beauty of player choice. Allow the player to experiment, without forcing it.

 

Now, I'd much rather see each weapon have a use, even the starting ones being potentially useful later on depending on the circumstance. It'd be more of a case of 'which weapon would best suit this job' vs 'what is the best high-level weapon I have for every job?' I suppose that depends on how 'RPG' you want the actual weapons to be.

[mkreku]

I would much rather see the difference between guns coming from mods (like scopes, silencers, better barrels, bigger magazines, quickloaders) than from the repair skill. If I got to choose.

[Llyranor]

Definitely. A statistical increase is pretty boring. Mods that change how the weapon is used are much more fun to toy around with. Though perhaps the repair skill could be used to upgrade weapons in such a way.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Llyranor