FO:NV

[Gorth]

Start of old thread

End of old thread

 

My pike is bigger than yours

 

Just to avoid disappointing the discussing gentlemen, the end of last thread. Not sure if it leads anywhere, but worth a try I suppose.

 

 

"and please... no 20' pike hyperbole."

 

Then how about a Scythe hyperbole? I don't think it's a matter of what the game allows players to use. It's a matter of what players want to have available to them. In PnP DnD, the DM can work around the dynamics of the group. In a CRPG, the weapons available to suit any player's tastes must be available to every player despite taste, so we get a hodgepodge of exotic weapons. Sometimes, it seems excessive to me. That's not a problem with the ruleset. It's because some player wants to use a scythe or long spear and thinks it should be just as viable as a sword. However, while there are regions that, at one point or another, used exotic sorts of weapons, most don't. That's why they're considered exotic. *shrug* Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I always find it jarring. At any rate, I simply don't believe that a scythe should have a technical advantage over the sword in any ruleset. We're not even talking player tates there. If your setting favors halberds, fine. There is a historical example of widespread halberd use. It's certainly feasible. If your setting favors the use of Scythes, that's cool for the exact same reason. However, DnD CRPGs seem to include a vast weapon repertoire despite the setting. That's because players want them. I find it personally distracting.

 

Otherwise, in terms of Fallout, I don't see our dispute. I guess you might want to turn this into one of your acrimonious arguments. Okay. I know better than to try to stop that. I guess I could say, "if we leave out the reference to the 20' pike, would you still have a beef?" Or maybe I could point out that I said, "What I'm also getting from you is that you think the problem is worse in Fallout." How about "...And energy weapons are, as folks have said, essentially the same as other weapons types, only changing out the ammunition. Gatling Lasers? Alien Blasters? Plasma Rifles? I agree whole heartedly with folks who want to scrap the old categories and put new categories in the game." Would that stave off making this a personal argument between the two of us that will last for several pages? Maybe you'd like me to bow before your imminence and simply say, "I was wrong, oh great Gromnir?"

 

I get that you feel like I attacked DnD unfairly, but as it seems to me you then went on to create a conflict in regards to Fallout where we don't have one. I doubt this will work, but if we put the DnD discussion aside what exactly is your problem with my position? It is almost identical to yours at any rate. *shrug* I'd rather not have a bitter dispute because I used "20' pike" in an example, but I'm not going to slink off with my tail between my legs because you feel the need to flex your message board muscles. Just sayin'.

 

am still not seeing your point... really. attack d&d is fine with Gromnir, 'cause we does all the time. but am not seeing no plausible comparison 'tween 20' pike and fo weapons categories.

 

am not getting why it seems strange that a choice o' small guns or big guns or energy weapons as a player's sole weapon choice should be odd or unplayable. as we mentioned, people would go nutters if they got 2/3 of way through game and found out they need lock pick to progress, so why is ok to presume multiple weapon skills is necessary, particularly when they is such broad categories?

 

in d&d even if you choose to specialize in a weapon, (regardless of whether or not it is dagger, mace, longsword dagger or pike) you ain't consigned to fail if you use another weapon.

 

in d&d, if you choose to specialize or focus in a particular weapon, you can be damned sure you is gonna have access to that weapon before you get 1/3 through campaign/game.

 

etc.

 

is not a board battle thing or a d&d defense thing... am just not seeing any parallels.

 

"The best we could come up with (stealing a lot from gurps) was classifying the combat skills under pistols, rifles and exotics (With a host of subskills like exotic weapons: flamethrower, Exotic weapon bow etc). To further balance the whole issue we generally used "exotic weapon skill= 4/5 of rifle or pistol skill, where appropirate (like ew:crossbow uses 4/5 rifle score as base and ew:flaregun uses 4/5 pistols as base etc) and generally winged it for the truly exotic or unrelated things like bows and slings."

 

yeah, is pretty straightforward and intuitive to go with pistols and rifles being separate, but as Gromnir mentioned and josh clarified, rl pistols is sux compared to rifles. anybody hung-up on rl is gonna choke on his own bile... and they is gonna go absolute ape if you gots pistol wielder effective dual wielding.

 

Gromnir would be perfectly happy with 1 marksman skill, as were suggested earlier, but by doing so you has made melee skill even more fail in comparison, and you gotta come up with a bunch o' new perks too... balancing perks/feats has been pretty problematic with all such systems that adopt the perk/feat route.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Aristes]

I'm going to reread the last couple of pages. I understand now that you're not picking a fight, but I think I might not have understood previous points. I would have to say that my essential position, regardless of where anyone else stands, is that energy weapons as a separate category doesn't make much sense to me. For all I care, firearms and energy could be one large category and specialization in individual weapons would be perfectly reasonable, as per DnD. I don't think that energy weapons should be a category separate from pistols or firearms. I've never thought so. Even in Fallout, when I first played it years ago, I thought it was strange that I had such a hard time learning how to use a laser pistol compared to a 10mm. While the care is different, you still point and shoot. From experience, I know that I had virtually no problem switching between a .22 and a .45, which simply cannot be any less different in execution than a 10mm and a laser pistol in terms of actual operation. I've heard all sorts of excuses as to why energy weapons required a separate category. Once again, I can shoot an M16 and a 12 gauge at about equal proficiency. That might not be saying much, but the operation is by and large the same. Perhaps I won't win an olympics, but I can basically get bullets in the area I want. Sure, care and mantainance might be different, but they are essentially the same in use.

 

I guess I do disagree in a couple of areas that I can identify right away. If concealment and ability to draw quickly were factors, I think pistols would have to win hands down. I never really had the opportunity to test how fast I could draw a pistol as opposed to unsling a rifle and draw a bead on a target. It's been years since I've even held a firearm. Still, I'm almost certain I could draw faster than I could bring a rifle to bear unless I had the rifle in my hands already. Neither are important unless the PC is forced to conceal his weapons for some reason or another. In which case the pistol or small melee weapon would be an advantage and the unarmed character would have the best time of it. Without that design, there's really no consideration for any weapon other than proficiency, damage, range, and personal preference.

 

Anyhow, like I said, I was getting pretty irritated and it seems without warrant. Not much of a surprise. Time to go peruse the old thread and see what I got mixed up.

[Niten_Ryu]

From experience, I know that I had virtually no problem switching between a .22 and a .45, which simply cannot be any less different in execution than a 10mm and a laser pistol in terms of actual operation. I've heard all sorts of excuses as to why energy weapons required a separate category. Once again, I can shoot an M16 and a 12 gauge at about equal proficiency. That might not be saying much, but the operation is by and large the same. Perhaps I won't win an olympics, but I can basically get bullets in the area I want. Sure, care and mantainance might be different, but they are essentially the same in use.

 

I agree. I understand from game design point of view it might be ok to add different weapon categoties but in RL situations I haven't found any significant difference in accuraty between certain weapons. Sure it's easier to hit target 800m away with Dragunov or Sako TRG then with your basic assault rifle but for their effective range you hit about the same. It's just as easy to use heavy machineguns like 12,7 ITKK (NSV) or light antitank weapons like 66 KES 88 (M72A5).

[TwinkieGorilla]

Pop said: "The Pipboy picture"

 

 

*ahem*

 

Vaultboy, actually.

 

 

 

this lil' guy is "Pipboy"

[Syraxis]

this lil' guy is "Pipboy"

 

I wonder, is the pipboy in New Vegas going to be called the Pipboy 3500 or is Lil' Pip 3000 going to be canon now?

[TwinkieGorilla]

Bethesda have no ****ing clue what they're doing. i can't even think about what they've done to "canon" without raging.

[Slowtrain]

A lot of people I've talked to played Fallout 3 and didn't know what skills governed what weapons. Part of this has to do with UI feedback, but it's telling that several people expected things like sniper rifles and hunting rifles to be covered by Big Guns.

 

I'm pretty sure it says in the skill description in the pipboy what guns the Big Guns skill refers to.

 

If gamers can't be bothered to read what is right there on the computer screen, I don't really expect the developer to do much else. You can't protect people from their own ignorance or stupidity.

[TwinkieGorilla]

a lot of people who played Fallout 3 not "getting" things is surprising how?

[Slowtrain]

Trying to make sure your game is immediately accessible by even the extremely stupid is a surefire way to make a stupid game.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Trying to make sure your game is immediately accessible by even the extremely stupid is a surefire way to make a stupid game.

 

G.O.A.T.(S.E.)

 

 

'nuff said.

[Slowtrain]

Its a sad day when even Bethesda games befuddle the average gamer.

 

In the old days I would have said RTFM. Nowadays I guess I would say: Learn to read.

[Gromnir]

aristes,

 

don't feel bad 'bout getting angry. is no question that Gromnir approach leads to some irritation from fellow posters... is why we never take no personal offense when folks does get angry. am sometimes baffled, but am never offended by folks getting riled by Gromnir.

 

as for the reasonableness of combining energy and small... yeah, am not seeing a non-game reason for doing so. problem is from game pov you got balance issues. original fo had more skills categories, although some were redundant and... stoopid. new fo gives similar skills awards per level, but you cap at 100 and you reduce number o' skills and sudden you got every fo3 character capable o' hitting 100 in virtual every available skill... and that also seems silly. every time you reduce the pool of skills choices, but keep level skill points awards same, you makes more plausible for the fo3 wackines o' the post apoc renaissance man who is a seeming genius at everything.

 

fo3 skills that gots obvious/immediate combat applications:

 

Small Guns

Big Guns

Energy Weapons

Unarmed

Melee Weapons

Explosives

 

now, combine small, big and energy into one category for fo:nv-- keep everything else same. marksman becomes a no-brainer choice for Winner o' combat skills, no? melee and unarmed is already relative bad, and to use grenades and mines not seem to require much points in explosives. disarm mine takes skill, but throw grenade in combat gots low threshold.

 

btw, as for the quick draw situation... seems like more o' old west gunslinger or tarentino movie scenario than genuine. can you imagine quick draw technique being taught to marines in basic?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

now, combine small, big and energy into one category for fo:nv-- keep everything else same. marksman becomes a no-brainer choice for Winner o' combat skills, no? melee and unarmed is already relative bad, and to use grenades and mines not seem to require much points in explosives. disarm mine takes skill, but throw grenade in combat gots low threshold.

!

 

Well, if you were going to combine small, big, and energy into one category, you'd have to redesign the remaining combat skill tiers as well. Melee and unarmed would fold together easily enough. IIRC, Josh dropped throwing and included grenades with melee. Explosives could be dropped as an independent category at that point and perhaps folded into repair (skill with finicky things), which would make repair more of a vaulable skill as well.

 

Explosives are a lot of fun in FO3, but really doesn't seem deserving of its own category.

[Llyranor]

Explosives are ALWAYS deserving of their own category.

[Slowtrain]

Explosives are ALWAYS deserving of their own category.

 

 

In terms of overall fun, definitely. But as far as being a fully worthy of the same skill point value as a theoretical marksman skill? Not so much.

[Slowtrain]

Really, there only needs to be 2 catefories of combat skills in the game.

 

1) Things you shoot at people

 

2) Things you hit, stab, bludgeon at people.

 

Grenades could fold into either although they probably make a tad more sense as a shoot at people thing.

 

Setting and defusing bombs and mines is more of a mechanical skill, not so much a combat skill, and make sense in the repair skill category

[Gromnir]

now, combine small, big and energy into one category for fo:nv-- keep everything else same. marksman becomes a no-brainer choice for Winner o' combat skills, no? melee and unarmed is already relative bad, and to use grenades and mines not seem to require much points in explosives. disarm mine takes skill, but throw grenade in combat gots low threshold.

!

 

Well, if you were going to combine small, big, and energy into one category, you'd have to redesign the remaining combat skill tiers as well. Melee and unarmed would fold together easily enough. IIRC, Josh dropped throwing and included grenades with melee. Explosives could be dropped as an independent category at that point and perhaps folded into repair (skill with finicky things), which would make repair more of a vaulable skill as well.

 

Explosives are a lot of fun in FO3, but really doesn't seem deserving of its own category.

 

 

am having no problem with reduction and streamlining, but again, the way things worked in fo3 we were already able to very easy max virtual every skill... not that you needed max to be good in most o' the skills. if you is reducing number o' skills, you better reduce skill point pool, otherwise by end of game, every character's skill point distribution is gonna look identical: 100 in everything.

 

also, combine melee and unarmed means you got 1 sucky skill rather than 2... even with grenades.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'm pretty sure it says in the skill description in the pipboy what guns the Big Guns skill refers to.

However, it doesn't work the other way around; weapons do not give any UI feedback about what skills they use.

[Pidesco]

^That's NV info right there. The weapons' UI will have info on which skill they use. >_

[Slowtrain]

am having no problem with reduction and streamlining, but again, the way things worked in fo3 we were already able to very easy max virtual every skill... not that you needed max to be good in most o' the skills. if you is reducing number o' skills, you better reduce skill point pool, otherwise by end of game, every character's skill point distribution is gonna look identical: 100 in everything.

 

also, combine melee and unarmed means you got 1 sucky skill rather than 2... even with grenades.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

No argument that skill points were WAY too freely given out in FO3. Between books and bobbleheads and perks, you almost don't even need skill points at level up. I'd like to see SP scaled way back, even if the skill system remains the same. SP should have value. In the current incarnation of FO3, they really don't.

 

 

AS far as melee/unarmed efectiveness, that may be more a matter of playstyle than anything else. RT vs VATS. I don't use VATS at all. In realtime combat I've played a lot of melee/unarmed characters and they are devastating combat builds. The shiskabob is the single most powerful weapon in the game; the deathclaw gauntlet is right behind it. NONE of the ranged weapons are even close. With melee/unarmed you can kill anything so fast they don't even have time to spit before they are dead. Yes, you do need a resilient character build because you do take a lot of damage and there's a bit more tactical thought that goes into combat than with ranged weapons.

 

If I had to pick one pc build using one weapon to get to FO3 without dying; it would be a high endurance/high strength melee character using the shiskabob.

[Slowtrain]

I'm pretty sure it says in the skill description in the pipboy what guns the Big Guns skill refers to.

However, it doesn't work the other way around; weapons do not give any UI feedback about what skills they use.

 

 

That's true. A bit of extra info there would probably be helpful.

 

I actually found all the items and weapons to be somewhat threadbare as far as usfeul info went when mousing over them in the pipboy. That whole area could stand a bit of sprucing up.

[Gromnir]

"If I had to pick one pc build using one weapon to get to FO3 without dying; it would be a high endurance/high strength melee character using the shiskabob."

 

late in game, after many levels, you can has a pretty good melee character. compared to ranged, we experienced considerable death early trying to do melee... if Gromnir were less tenacious, am doubtful we woulda stuck with it. had to rely on sneak, and if that didn't work...

 

*shrug*

 

is any number o' ultimate builds, but ultimate builds never really mean much to Gromnir as they typical ignore most of game leading up to ultimate build.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: am thinking that style of play actually has much to do with the problem we had with melee. we rare used vats for ranged, but if we got jumped by a rad scorpion or missed our kill shot with a deathstalker, we would swich to vats... pretty much quit using that sniper with the knock back as it complete ruined ranged combat.

 

the thing is, in vats, melee... sucked. out of vats it felt like we were playing some twitchy shooter, and Gromnir has no stomach for such.

 

is probably more style than anything else that relegated Gromnir to frequent early death, but that still raises issue o' why melee is so crap in vats.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Gromnir

[Slowtrain]

"If I had to pick one pc build using one weapon to get to FO3 without dying; it would be a high endurance/high strength melee character using the shiskabob."

 

late in game, after many levels, you can has a pretty good melee character. compared to ranged, we experienced considerable death early trying to do melee... if Gromnir were less tenacious, am doubtful we woulda stuck with it. had to rely on sneak, and if that didn't work...

 

*shrug*

 

is any number o' ultimate builds, but ultimate builds never really mean much to Gromnir as they typical ignore most of game leading up to ultimate build.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

eh. melee/unarmed characters are pretty uber right from the getgo. The baseball bat isn't much a weapon, but one you can get a lead pipe or a tire iron, you are off and running.

 

The advantages of melee weapons are pretty huge: no ammo requiremnts, no pauses for reloading, extremely fast strikes (even the slow weapons like the sledgehammer are still as fast or faster than most ranged weapons, no misses (in realtime), you can block when neccessary which gives a big boost to your dr.

 

Yes, you do take damage when closing a gap, but once you are on top of an enemy and start attacking, the enemy will start to take critical hits and drop their weapon or fall over or whatever. Then you just beat on them unopposed till they are dead.

 

 

The toughest fight for a melee user is another melee user who can block, then it becomes a hit for hit battle. You just try to maximize the number of strikes you can do. 2 for 1 is almost always doable, except against the fatest enemies. hen you just resign yourself to eating stimpacks until the battle ends.

 

 

The worst situation for a melee/unarmed fighter is facing multiple enemies at once, especially multiple melee enemies that can block, since it takes longer to kill them than firearm toting enemies. That's where you have to think about how to maximize your advantage tactically as best you can.

 

 

Again, this in RT. From what I understand combat plays out very differently when VATS is used.

[Gromnir]

see edit

 

HA! Good Fun!

[cronicler]

I don't think Main Skills with sub-specilization skills is the way to go but thats mainly for the departure from the original concepts.

 

Anyway here is a (mainly Alternity ripped) Skill list. Each level, you get (Int-x) Skillpoints that you can put to your "main" skills:

 

Marksmanship

Personal Defence

Technology

Social

Survival

 

Each point put into the major skill increases the baseline for sub skills and adds to the skill pool for subspecilization; ie you all 5 points into the Marksman then all your shooting skills get better:

 

Marksmanship:

-Pistols: Base skill 5/6 Marksman

-Shotguns: Base Skill 4/5 Marksman

-SMGs: Base Skill X/X Marksman and so on

-Rifles (Regular Hunting Rifles)

-Assault Rifles (Smaller Caliber Military Rifles)

-Heavy Rifles (Laser, Plasma, Anti Material Sniper etc)

-Machine Guns

 

Each point spent on marksman skill also gives you X points to spend on subskills. you can add these points directly to the (sub)skill or spend them to buy weapon specisalation perks (Ie Pistolero: Decreases AP cost, Firing time increases accuracy for pistols 7Points.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

But this kind of system would be a really big departure from the main concept. I don't think we can stick with the original concept and make it better (other than creating low level heavy and energy weapons, reintroducing non-explosive throwing weapons and such). Still I would like to stick with the original concept....