North Korea: Great Country, or Greatest Country?

[EUIX]

I was in Dandong a month back, and on the Broken Yalu river (yalu duan qiao), there are binoculars that you can rent and look into North Korea with, it's very surreal seeing all the high rises on the Chinese side and on the NK side there is nothing. I can only imagine what it must be like at night. Afterwards took a drive along the highway and after a while the Yalu bends into North Korea so all that separates China and NK is a fence, there was a gap in the fence about 3 meters wide where anyone could walk in. It is another world over there.

 

Our driver said the NK Border Guards bring back refugees by stringing them together with steel wire threaded through their shoulders. Because they are so malnourished you can get the wire straight through the flesh and out the other end easily.

Edited August 25, 2009 by EUIX

[alanschu]

Oh really?

 

I take it back then. NK is a paradise.

[I want teh kotor 3]

I never thought I would see a defense of North Korea, or any other Communist country for that matter. /facepalm

[Tigranes]

And a defense of a communist country is inherently wrong because?

 

I'd rather see a spirited and substantiated defense of anything than a baseless dismissal.

[I want teh kotor 3]

And a defense of a communist country is inherently wrong because?

 

Because communism is one of the worst forms of government ever invented by mankind. Government-run everything: economy, media, abso-friggin-lutely everything... Plus, communism is socialist, which is inherently stupid.

 

I'd rather see a spirited and substantiated defense of anything than a baseless dismissal.

Its not at all baseless.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Because communism is one of the worst forms of government ever invented by mankind.

 

Fail.

 

Government-run everything: economy, media, abso-friggin-lutely everything...

 

Fail.

 

Plus, communism is socialist, which is inherently stupid.

 

Fail.

 

Its not at all baseless.

 

True, but in this context this is also a fail.

[Tigranes]

You made a longer post, but there's still no logical substantiation.

 

I'm not trying to defend NK or advocate communism, actually. And I'm sure if you took the time you would be able to throw a logical argument at me. But I think the point stands that it's ironic to sit and laugh at 'extremism' and 'conspiracy theories' when we then sit there and foreclose ourselves with fallacies like 'inherently stupid socialism'.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Oh yes. Socialism is so wrong. Why have any socialistic aspects what so ever. Lets go and have privatized police forces, pay up front fire departments, and ditch all public education while we are at it. lets rid ourselves of social security, medicaid and medicare, and wipe clean a government controlled military. Oh yes, socialism is the greatest evil of all time. REALLY!

 

[Gorth]

I wonder if it is worth the effort, but I pruned the last part of the thread a bit. Disappointing to see otherwise bright individuals getting trigger happy and confrontational when certain subjects come up. Lets see if we can do it without the personal insults?

[Walsingham]

Oh yes. Socialism is so wrong. Why have any socialistic aspects what so ever. Lets go and have privatized police forces, pay up front fire departments, and ditch all public education while we are at it. lets rid ourselves of social security, medicaid and medicare, and wipe clean a government controlled military. Oh yes, socialism is the greatest evil of all time. REALLY!

 

 

I thought you were a card carrying individualist? Or were you just trolling?

[Gorgon]

It's pretty nice to have a big government tit to suck on during an economic depression though.

 

We are increasing parts of the public sector to keep people in jobs, all despite a record deficit. It's ok though, we saved up enough to keep the silliness up several years more.

[HoonDing]

One wouldn't want to run afoul of North Korean treehuggers...

[Purkake]

Yes, this thread needed MORE ignorant people spewing ignorant crap. Go mr kotor!

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's just as stupid to argue communism is good as it is to argue nazism is good. I'm sure someone could make an argument why nazism is good, but I have no desire to discuss anything with that kind of degenerate.

[Humodour]

It's just as stupid to argue communism is good as it is to argue nazism is good. I'm sure someone could make an argument why nazism is good, but I have no desire to discuss anything with that kind of degenerate.

 

What is communism? Seriously, answer it.

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's an atrocious totalitarian system that has been responsible for the murder of tens of millions of people.

 

Alternatively it's a lunatic fantasy about a utopian society in which everyone works according to his abilities and consumes according to his needs.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gorgon]

And yet another definition would be 'one of the two teams you were forced to be on during the cold war'

[lord of flies]

I've been considering it, looking at various nations, and I've come to a conclusion:

 

Anarchism is the best form of government.

 

Within the CNT-controlled regions of Spain during the Spanish Civil War, there was a real, honest, collectivized and democratic workers' state. AFAIK, no other ideology has created an honest, bottom-up workers' state, so anarchism wins.

 

Communism is still better than modern capitalism, though.

[Guard Dog]

Anarchism is the best form of government.

 

I see. So on one hand you favor a dominating state that utterly subjugates it's citizens and personal liberty is non existent and on the other hand you favor no government at all where personal liberty is maximized so long as you have enough guns to ward off someone bent on taking whatever you have. You are either an idiot or you are just talking out of you @$$. I tend to think it might be the latter.

 

But if I had to chose between the two I'd take anarchy because I am well armed.

[lord of flies]

I see. So on one hand you favor a dominating state that utterly subjugates it's citizens and personal liberty is non existent

No, I merely prefer a state which prevents the rise of the thuggish capitalist class. The fact that most of these historical regimes have suppressed their own people fails to remember that they did not (as modern capitalist countries do) suppress huge masses outside their borders via extremely unequal trade relations, use of intelligence agencies, military force, threat of military force, et cetera, to keep them trapped in right-wing authoritarianism.

and on the other hand you favor no government at all where personal liberty is maximized so long as you have enough guns to ward off someone bent on taking whatever you have.

Look up the Commune of Paris, look up the CNT-FAI, then perhaps bother to learn about anarchism before you post again.

[Gorgon]

I agree that Anarchism is the best form of government. The problem is that the larger the entity, the less room there is for direct democracy. Anarchism is not equipped to handle a whole nation.

 

Communism can be democratic though. There are plenty of communist parties who owe their existence to the voters, in the former Soviet republics for instance.

[lord of flies]

I agree that Anarchism is the best form of government. The problem is that the larger the entity, the less room there is for direct democracy. Anarchism is not equipped to handle a whole nation.

Nations are the dumbest bull**** anyway.

Communism can be democratic though. There are plenty of communist parties who owe their existence to the voters, in the former Soviet republics for instance.

Oh yeah, I forgot, Moldova and Cuba are both democratic communist countries.

[Guard Dog]

then perhaps bother to learn about anarchism before you post again.

 

I don't know anything about anarchy huh? I was in Somalia in 1993. I've seen anarchy first fu*****g hand and it is something you will never be able to wrap your narrow little mind around jack. Anarchy might work fine when it is practiced among a small group of civilized people, until a stronger group of uncivilized people comes along. Anarchy is might makes right and your life and liberty are subject to the whim of the first enemy you cannot defeat. There is a good reason the era of European History following the collapse of the Western Empire is called the Dark Ages. I thought you might be just a troll or even a provocateur looking to stir up interesting conversation but it is plain as day to me you do not know the first thing about how the world really works. I was wrong about you flies, it was the former not the latter.

[lord of flies]

Anarchy might work fine when it is practiced among a small group of civilized people, until a stronger group of uncivilized people comes along. Anarchy is might makes right and your life and liberty are subject to the whim of the first enemy you cannot defeat.

This is true of literally everything, Jesus H. Christ. The better armed person wins in a fight no matter what ****ing society you live in. The only thing which actually prevents the government from busting down your door right now and shooting you in the head is that they don't want to. If they did it, who, praytell, would punish them?

 

I mean, hell, let's be frank here. If ONE police officer decided to kill you or beat you within an inch of your life, there is a VERY high chance he would NEVER be punished for it.

Edited August 29, 2009 by lord of flies

[alanschu]

Anarchism is the best form of government.

 

Given that Anarchism is the lack of government, you'll have to forgive me if I'm somewhat skeptical.

 

 

I have a feeling that Anarchism would get you something that is more similar to modern capitalism than communism.

 

 

 

I agree, Communism is better though...except for that whole "unable to sustain itself effectively" thing. That kinda sucks.