Bos_hybrid Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Purkake said: CrashGirl said: Somebody should make a crpg where you get to the play the unknown dark evil instead of a dweeby hero type. MotB? Yes sort of but not completely. I think a more appropriate example would be, if in NWN2 you were the King of Shadows. I can't really think of a game where you are the main villian, even in Overlord yes you are the villian but not the main one and those you do fight, aren't exactly what I would call heroes/good. I thought Prototype might be different and for most of the game it was, Reveal hidden contents but in the you saved NY , I think the reason for this is that developers believe the majority want to play the hero and they are right.
HoonDing Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Bos_hybrid said: I can't really think of a game where you are the main villian, even in Overlord yes you are the villian but not the main one and those you do fight, aren't exactly what I would call heroes/good. I thought Prototype might be different and for most of the game it was, Reveal hidden contents but in the you saved NY , I think the reason for this is that developers believe the majority want to play the hero and they are right. Wario World? The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Mamoulian War Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Dungeon Keeper, Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a Darklord - 2 more examples Edited June 23, 2009 by Mamoulian War Sent from my Stone Tablet, using Chisel-a-Talk 2000BC. My youtube channel: MamoulianFH Latest Let's Play Tales of Arise (completed) Latest Bossfight Compilation Dark Souls II - Scholar of the First Sin - New Game (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 1: Austria Grand Campaign (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 2: Xhosa Grand Campaign (completed) My PS Platinums and 100% - 30 games so far (my PSN profile) Reveal hidden contents 1) God of War III - PS3 - 24+ hours 2) Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 130+ hours 3) White Knight Chronicles International Edition - PS3 - 525+ hours 4) Hyperdimension Neptunia - PS3 - 80+ hours 5) Final Fantasy XIII-2 - PS3 - 200+ hours 6) Tales of Xillia - PS3 - 135+ hours 7) Hyperdimension Neptunia mk2 - PS3 - 152+ hours 8.) Grand Turismo 6 - PS3 - 81+ hours (including Senna Master DLC) 9) Demon's Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 10) Tales of Graces f - PS3 - 337+ hours 11) Star Ocean: The Last Hope International - PS3 - 750+ hours 12) Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 127+ hours 13) Soulcalibur V - PS3 - 73+ hours 14) Gran Turismo 5 - PS3 - 600+ hours 15) Tales of Xillia 2 - PS3 - 302+ hours 16) Mortal Kombat XL - PS4 - 95+ hours 17) Project CARS Game of the Year Edition - PS4 - 120+ hours 18) Dark Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 19) Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory - PS3 - 238+ hours 20) Final Fantasy Type-0 - PS4 - 58+ hours 21) Journey - PS4 - 9+ hours 22) Dark Souls II - PS3 - 210+ hours 23) Fairy Fencer F - PS3 - 215+ hours 24) Megadimension Neptunia VII - PS4 - 160 hours 25) Super Neptunia RPG - PS4 - 44+ hours 26) Journey - PS3 - 22+ hours 27) Final Fantasy XV - PS4 - 263+ hours (including all DLCs) 28) Tales of Arise - PS4 - 111+ hours 29) Dark Souls: Remastered - PS4 - 121+ hours 30) Mortal Kombat 11 - PS4 - 200+ hours 31) Dark Souls II: Scholar of the First Sin - PS4 - 246+ hours 32) Star Ocean: Faithlessness and Integrity - PS4 - 185+ hours
Bos_hybrid Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 virumor said: Wario World? Mamoulian War said: Dungeon Keeper, Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a Darklord - 2 more examples Never played DK, as for FF:CC
Slowtrain Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Bos_hybrid said: [ I think the reason for this is that developers believe the majority want to play the hero and they are right. I dunno. I certainly see a lot of threads about playing evil chars, about how developers can't do evil well, and about the joy of killing all the "good" NPCS from Elminster and Drizzt right up to Three Dog. Gorgon said: Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Mamoulian War Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 I can imagine how difficult it could be to write fully evil game with you as a main antagonist, without getting AO rating... By human morals, it's different when you do bad things as a hero for "greater good", and when you do same things as the incarnation of pure evil... Sent from my Stone Tablet, using Chisel-a-Talk 2000BC. My youtube channel: MamoulianFH Latest Let's Play Tales of Arise (completed) Latest Bossfight Compilation Dark Souls II - Scholar of the First Sin - New Game (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 1: Austria Grand Campaign (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 2: Xhosa Grand Campaign (completed) My PS Platinums and 100% - 30 games so far (my PSN profile) Reveal hidden contents 1) God of War III - PS3 - 24+ hours 2) Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 130+ hours 3) White Knight Chronicles International Edition - PS3 - 525+ hours 4) Hyperdimension Neptunia - PS3 - 80+ hours 5) Final Fantasy XIII-2 - PS3 - 200+ hours 6) Tales of Xillia - PS3 - 135+ hours 7) Hyperdimension Neptunia mk2 - PS3 - 152+ hours 8.) Grand Turismo 6 - PS3 - 81+ hours (including Senna Master DLC) 9) Demon's Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 10) Tales of Graces f - PS3 - 337+ hours 11) Star Ocean: The Last Hope International - PS3 - 750+ hours 12) Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 127+ hours 13) Soulcalibur V - PS3 - 73+ hours 14) Gran Turismo 5 - PS3 - 600+ hours 15) Tales of Xillia 2 - PS3 - 302+ hours 16) Mortal Kombat XL - PS4 - 95+ hours 17) Project CARS Game of the Year Edition - PS4 - 120+ hours 18) Dark Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 19) Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory - PS3 - 238+ hours 20) Final Fantasy Type-0 - PS4 - 58+ hours 21) Journey - PS4 - 9+ hours 22) Dark Souls II - PS3 - 210+ hours 23) Fairy Fencer F - PS3 - 215+ hours 24) Megadimension Neptunia VII - PS4 - 160 hours 25) Super Neptunia RPG - PS4 - 44+ hours 26) Journey - PS3 - 22+ hours 27) Final Fantasy XV - PS4 - 263+ hours (including all DLCs) 28) Tales of Arise - PS4 - 111+ hours 29) Dark Souls: Remastered - PS4 - 121+ hours 30) Mortal Kombat 11 - PS4 - 200+ hours 31) Dark Souls II: Scholar of the First Sin - PS4 - 246+ hours 32) Star Ocean: Faithlessness and Integrity - PS4 - 185+ hours
Meshugger Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Mamoulian War said: I can imagine how difficult it could be to write fully evil game with you as a main antagonist, without getting AO rating... By human morals, it's different when you do bad things as a hero for "greater good", and when you do same things as the incarnation of pure evil... More difficult, yes. But not entirely impossible though. Just outsource the creative lead to some sociopath on death row and we have a winner. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
Hell Kitty Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) CrashGirl said: Bos_hybrid said: [ I think the reason for this is that developers believe the majority want to play the hero and they are right. I dunno. I certainly see a lot of threads about playing evil chars, about how developers can't do evil well, and about the joy of killing all the "good" NPCS from Elminster and Drizzt right up to Three Dog. Well he did say the majority. People who post on the internet are certainly not the majority. As for good and evil, I prefer neither. ME was certainly a step in the right direction in this regard. Edited June 23, 2009 by Hell Kitty
Slowtrain Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Hell Kitty said: CrashGirl said: Bos_hybrid said: [ I think the reason for this is that developers believe the majority want to play the hero and they are right. I dunno. I certainly see a lot of threads about playing evil chars, about how developers can't do evil well, and about the joy of killing all the "good" NPCS from Elminster and Drizzt right up to Three Dog. Well he did say the majority. People who post on the internet are certainly not the majority. True. That's always a valid point. Those who post, especilly regularly, are a pretty small subset of any group. Still, the fact that "playing evil" topics seem to come up so regularly in crpg forums indicate that there is at least some sort of market for it. I mean how many times have I seen people posting about how they wiped out Vault CIty or Megaton (and THEN blew it up)? In many games/movies/books the dark evil force often goes through a period of ascendancy while it tries to gain power to crush all oppostion and blanket the land/world/univers in a second darkness. Very similar to how the "good" player character goes through their ascendancy until they become powerful enough to defeat the rising dark evil. I don't think it owuld be much if a switch to subvert that paradigm a bit. Gorgon said: Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Blarghagh Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Bos_hybrid said: Never played DK Dungeon Keeper is pretty much the pinnacle so far of playing evil. Torture, imprisonment, starvation, fireballing and just generally beating the **** out people... and that's just your own minions!
Slowtrain Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Meshugger said: Mamoulian War said: I can imagine how difficult it could be to write fully evil game with you as a main antagonist, without getting AO rating... By human morals, it's different when you do bad things as a hero for "greater good", and when you do same things as the incarnation of pure evil... More difficult, yes. But not entirely impossible though. Just outsource the creative lead to some sociopath on death row and we have a winner. I don't really see a sociopath on death row as being a good model for a rising dark evil. That I think is one problem with how developers portray evil, they trivialize it until it becomes cartoonish. a Rising Dark Evil is neither trivial nor cartoonish. A Rising Dark Evil doesn't sit in jail cells or anything so mundane. OR if it does, only at the very early part of its ascendancy before it ha begun to grow in power. Gorgon said: Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Hell Kitty Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) CrashGirl said: That I think is one problem with how developers portray evil, they trivialize it until it becomes cartoonish. So do players.* That's the problem with "evil", what is it exactly? * I suppose there is a market for cartoonish evil, considering games in which we play the villian (like Overlord) tend to go for the comedic angle. Edited June 23, 2009 by Hell Kitty
Oner Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Hell Kitty said: So do players.* That's the problem with "evil", what is it exactly? Like it's my fault for only getting 'jerk' instead of 'magnificent bastard' lines in conversations. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Morgoth Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Did people every though that there's hardly any evil that has been explored in games? No? How about you commit genocide? Oh no no no no! That's "evil"! We can't do this! We gonna have make the sort of "HAW HAW HAW I'm evil I'll eat your babies" sort of evilness. Lame. Next. Rain makes everything better.
Maria Caliban Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 How could you guys forget Kain? "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
Monte Carlo Posted June 23, 2009 Author Posted June 23, 2009 I think a politics game, or a game about economics, where you played a Gordon Gekko type character would be an arena where you could explore ideas like good and evil without scaring the horses too much. Having said that, and unfashionable as it may be, I think Gordon Gekko isn't necessarily evil...
Oner Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 I only played Kain in Defiance, and by that point he was anything but a villain. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Bos_hybrid Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Maria Caliban said: How could you guys forget Kain? Again Kain wasn't a villian(once the story played out), more like an anti-hero.
213374U Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Morgoth said: Did people every though that there's hardly any evil that has been explored in games? No? How about you commit genocide? Oh no no no no! That's "evil"! We can't do this! We gonna have make the sort of "HAW HAW HAW I'm evil I'll eat your babies" sort of evilness. Lame.And that, I think, is a good example of how players trivialize evil as much as devs do. What do you want to commit genocide for? Historically, genocide has been used as a means to an end, among other reasons, because it's a logistical nightmare. You could raze cities in Rome:TW, but somehow, that never comes up when discussing "evil" in games. It has no place in RPGs because it's out of the scope of those games, not because devs don't take "evil" seriously. Organising a genocide for the sake of "being evil" is more clownish than evil. See Darth Malak. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Maria Caliban Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Kain was the pillar of balance who decided he'd rather lead a blood crusade to rule the world. Instead of saving the world, he opted to crush it under his boot heel. He believes humans are worthless chattel. Not only is the guy evil, but he is blatantly, stereotypically evil. But, like Hannibal Lector, he's charismatic, intelligent, and compelling. He has a certain nobility and dignity about him. Here is another villain I don "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
WILL THE ALMIGHTY Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Kratos is evil enough, I think. Quote "Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade - make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager. Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons. Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons. I'm going to to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!"
Oner Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Maria Caliban said: Kain was the pillar of balance who decided he'd rather lead a blood crusade to rule the world. Instead of saving the world, he opted to crush it under his boot heel. He believes humans are worthless chattel. Not only is the guy evil, but he is blatantly, stereotypically evil. But, like Hannibal Lector, he's charismatic, intelligent, and compelling. He has a certain nobility and dignity about him. You mean, instead of letting the world be destroyed, or letting the world be destroyed later, he opted for a third option? He didn't orchestrate the mess in Soul Reaver just for kicks. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Maria Caliban Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 You're right: one unselfish act means that the thousand years of bloody tyranny totally do not count. That this unselfish act wasn't all that unselfish and didn't solve the problem is beside the point. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
HoonDing Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Kratos wasn't evil, but just a product of his time - a time where a victory was only considered complete with the complete annihilation of the enemy's male population & the enslavement of the enemy's female population. All Greek heroes were violent butchers. Achilles for instance single-handedly killed an entire Troyan army when he was sad that his buddy got killed, for instance. He only showed some emotion when he found out too late that he had skewered a hawt Amazone Queen. *shrug* The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Oner Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Didn't solve the problem? Except from stopping the manipulations of the hylden and the Elder God? Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
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