bhlaab Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Play through Fo1 again. Reducing the number of key events to 5-6 instead of 70 and filling the space with sidequests counts as non-linear because...? Or that you can choose in which order to complete the objectives, or go for the Super Muties from the start? Or do you mean the ability to ignore it completely? The quests and events themselves won't change, despite what you do (except the thing with the water merchants I guess) in game. Note: I mean these questions seriously, it's 1:35 AM here, and my brain refuses to work overtime. The idea of true non-linear story design is to have NO key events. Whether you want to argue that Fallout 1 has key events or not, less of them does indeed make the game less linear. The perception is king. That's what non-linearity is, brothers. It's the perception of freedom. I disagree entirely. You make it sound as though non-linearity is some unattainable thing. Non-linearity is simply not putting up artificial barriers and making all reasonable player decisions possible. (For the sake of argument, "reasonable player decisions" means anything that fits within the game's ruleset.) Artificial barriers. For example: the insurmountable radiation in front of Vault 87, unkillable NPCs, and doors that can't be opened yet. These are all special cases set up by the designers that circumvent the game's ruleset to keep the player in line. Obviously, 100% freedom is impossible. It would be UNreasonable to complain that you can't use pieces of driftwood you find among the wasteland and build yourself a log cabin. But that's not the kind of thing we're talking about here.
Tagaziel Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Play through Fo1 again. Reducing the number of key events to 5-6 instead of 70 and filling the space with sidequests counts as non-linear because...? Or that you can choose in which order to complete the objectives, or go for the Super Muties from the start? Or do you mean the ability to ignore it completely? The quests and events themselves won't change, despite what you do (except the thing with the water merchants I guess) in game. Note: I mean these questions seriously, it's 1:35 AM here, and my brain refuses to work overtime. There are only two key events in the game - blowing up the Cathedral and Mariposa, both of which can be accomplished in at least two ways. You're blind if you can't see the non-linearity. HMIC for: [ The Wasteland Wiki ] [ Pillars of Eternity Wiki ] [ Tyranny Wiki ]
Oner Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 There are only two key events in the game - blowing up the Cathedral and Mariposa, both of which can be accomplished in at least two ways. You're blind if you can't see the non-linearity. -Overseer sends you out -Buy water from merchants (optional, but still there) -Get the water chip -Overseer tells you to kill stuff -Mariposa -Cathedral And maybe someone could argue a few more in there. You could choose which mutant base to tackle first, and you could join the Master if you wanted. That's far from what I call non-linear. It's just less linear. I see bhlaab understands what I mean. And if you missed the note on the end of my post, then you're the blind one, not me. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Starwars Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 -Overseer sends you out-Buy water from merchants (optional, but still there) -Get the water chip -Overseer tells you to kill stuff -Mariposa -Cathedral Water from merchants, getting the water chip and Overseer tells you to kill stuff are all optional. You can also join the masters army and get dipped instead of saving the Vault of course. Listen to my home-made recordings (some original songs, some not): http://www.youtube.c...low=grid&view=0
TwinkieGorilla Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 FO1 & 2 are about the drive, not the destination. FO3 could have been this, because the world is dense enough, if the main quest wasn't so forced and hasty. at no point does it ever side-track you and put you out in the world or give you much reason to explore. i personally felt like once i started the MQ there was a hand on my back pushing me along until i was staring at the very ending of the game going "wtf just happened? this is Fallout 3?" hopw roewur ne?
Oner Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 getting the water chip and Overseer tells you to kill stuff are all optional. Most people won't know these are optional on the first playthrough. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Purkake Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 getting the water chip and Overseer tells you to kill stuff are all optional. Most people won't know these are optional on the first playthrough. Fun fact: Most people(over half) also don't know where their heart or lungs are located.
Oner Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 My char had science tagged, so.. That aside, fortunately for them, the Vault needs a chip, not lungs, which, while harder to find, doesn't necessitate self mutilation. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
bhlaab Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Most people won't know these are optional on the first playthrough. That doesn't mean they aren't optional. Most players will always do what they're told, but it takes a special game to allow them to do the opposite.
Oner Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Most people won't know these are optional on the first playthrough. That doesn't mean they aren't optional. Most players will always do what they're told, but it takes a special game to allow them to do the opposite. Never said that isn't the case. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
TwinkieGorilla Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Never said that isn't the case. yes you did. in your sleep. i heard you. hopw roewur ne?
Oner Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Never said that isn't the case. yes you did. in your sleep. i heard you. FAIL, I mumble in sleep, not talk. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
GreasyDogMeat Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 FO1 & 2 are about the drive, not the destination. FO3 could have been this, because the world is dense enough, if the main quest wasn't so forced and hasty. at no point does it ever side-track you and put you out in the world or give you much reason to explore. i personally felt like once i started the MQ there was a hand on my back pushing me along until i was staring at the very ending of the game going "wtf just happened? this is Fallout 3?" Don't know why you would feel that way. Left the main quest and didn't come back to it until I had explored every inch of the wasteland and completed every sidequest. If anything I felt more pressure in F1 to complete the main quests due to the time constraint. Heh, I remember when I first got Fallout, how the days (ingame) blew by so fast, put me in a panic "OMG Where is the water chip... gotta find it NOW!"
bhlaab Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 FO1&2 aren't even about the drive, it's about trying to find out where the destination is. Fallout 3, yeah, it's a huge open world. But if you're following a quest you always know exactly where you're going to end up. I don't think the fact that you can ignore the main quest and do other things instead makes it a nonlinear game (in terms of story) because the quest itself is incredibly linear and the fact of the matter is you're not going to get an ending without following the proper procedure. Of course, I'd say that Fallout 1 is a lot better than this than Fallout 2 as well, but maybe I just haven't replayed FO2 enough to figure out what's optional and what isn't.
entrerix Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 anyone have any guesses what the hook will be in the new game? also: I remember thinking that the father character in F3 would turn out to be the big bad at the end, having turned himself into a new "master" in hopes of ending the need for clean water and all the deaths that are caused by such a need. "my wife wouldn't have died had she been dipped, and now son, I will dip you so that you won't die either!!!" some idea on the father going nuts to try and save the world by making us all mutants under 1 shared mind. I was really disappointed to be wrong and have the enclave be the villains. autumn was about the least impressive villain I've ever seen in fiction, a very far cry from the master or frank horrigan. I'd actually like to see another frank horrigan type character show up, it was one of the few things from the originals that didn't get a new facelift (for better or worse) of some sort in F3. I guess we didn't get geckos either. or those squigly floaters. or wanamingos. Maybe we'll see some of these bad boys in New Vegas? Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Purkake Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 anyone have any guesses what the hook will be in the new game? I'll take a wild guess and say it will involve a vault and you having to leave it. Just a shot in the dark, though.
entrerix Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 hope not, I'm actually kinda wondering if they'll have us be a tribal this time. the even games we play tribals, the odd games vault dwellers (yeah I know there is no number 4 on new vegas for some reason) Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Purkake Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 hope not, I'm actually kinda wondering if they'll have us be a tribal this time. the even games we play tribals, the odd games vault dwellers (yeah I know there is no number 4 on new vegas for some reason) How about something a bit more original? You can't expect that from Bethesda, but maybe Obsidian could at least try? Also, vault > tribal.
entrerix Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 was anyone else really confused by the ending narration of F3 referring to your character as the "lone wanderer". It sounded like they were trying to come up with a generic call for the character like vault dweller or chosen one, but just gave up and had perlman say lone wanderer. Did any character in the game ever refer to the PC as lone wanderer? I loved those dialogues in F2 where you could proudly and somewhat idiotically identify yourself as the "chosen one". (I think it was renesco who would then think you were "touched in the head" if you made the claim to him.) oh yeah, and they seriously need to bring back the text box. I dont care if kids today think its outdated, I still like it. (and heck, music from the 40's might be called outdated by people who think fallout is all about new and modern - but to me fallout is about retro, not new and shiny) *disclaimer - entrerix really liked fallout 3. So please no one complain about my complaints, they are complaints of love not hate. Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Purkake Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 (edited) was anyone else really confused by the ending narration of F3 referring to your character as the "lone wanderer". It sounded like they were trying to come up with a generic call for the character like vault dweller or chosen one, but just gave up and had perlman say lone wanderer. Did any character in the game ever refer to the PC as lone wanderer? I loved those dialogues in F2 where you could proudly and somewhat idiotically identify yourself as the "chosen one". (I think it was renesco who would then think you were "touched in the head" if you made the claim to him.) oh yeah, and they seriously need to bring back the text box. I dont care if kids today think its outdated, I still like it. (and heck, music from the 40's might be called outdated by people who think fallout is all about new and modern - but to me fallout is about retro, not new and shiny) *disclaimer - entrerix really liked fallout 3. So please no one complain about my complaints, they are complaints of love not hate. *hint - I don't think anyone is going to complain about finding flaws in FO3, considering the general opinion around here Edited June 22, 2009 by Purkake
bhlaab Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 was anyone else really confused by the ending narration of F3 referring to your character as the "lone wanderer". It sounded like they were trying to come up with a generic call for the character like vault dweller or chosen one, but just gave up and had perlman say lone wanderer. Did any character in the game ever refer to the PC as lone wanderer? I loved those dialogues in F2 where you could proudly and somewhat idiotically identify yourself as the "chosen one". (I think it was renesco who would then think you were "touched in the head" if you made the claim to him.) oh yeah, and they seriously need to bring back the text box. I dont care if kids today think its outdated, I still like it. (and heck, music from the 40's might be called outdated by people who think fallout is all about new and modern - but to me fallout is about retro, not new and shiny) *disclaimer - entrerix really liked fallout 3. So please no one complain about my complaints, they are complaints of love not hate. Three Dog called you the lone wanderer over the radio all the time. hope not, I'm actually kinda wondering if they'll have us be a tribal this time. the even games we play tribals, the odd games vault dwellers (yeah I know there is no number 4 on new vegas for some reason) No, in every game divisible by 3 you play as The Prisoner
Oner Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Three Dog called you the lone wanderer over the radio all the time. He called me Little Miss 101. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Purkake Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 No, in every game divisible by 3 you play as The Prisoner FO6 confirmed? (I know, I know Van Buren...)
entrerix Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 ahh so that must be one of those things I missed by always turning off the radio anytime 3 dog started talking. Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
entrerix Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 OOH A NEW IDEA: there should be an easter egg type quest/encounter where you run into death in the desert looking for the next king of vegas, if you have a guitar you can challenge him to a duel. (this is straight ripoff of stuff from six string samurai, but since this game actually takes place in vegas it really fits) Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
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