Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[Hurlshort]

Man, Gromnir's been around so long Im surprised there are posters that dont know of his posting style. You should all be glad Sargrath doesnt post!

 

Who luvs ya baby!

[Gizmo]

he were a Developer for black isle... you not see title o' thread and follow back to origin? perhaps now you is seeing the point o' the post? a black isle developer speaks to the questionable commercial success o' fallout. bad 'cess to twinks, zigs and gorillas.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Ha!... I was wrong...

 

(I guess my mind is too finely tuned*)

 

*

I hope you've read Hitchhiker's Guide.

 

Edited May 7, 2009 by Gizmo

[Slowtrain]

Man, Gromnir's been around so long Im surprised there are posters that dont know of his posting style. You should all be glad Sargrath doesnt post!

 

Who luvs ya baby!

 

 

Sargy only shows up here on his once-a year-playthrough of PS:T nowadays.

[Gorgon]

Like Sarge and Gromnir aren't the same person.

[TwinkieGorilla]

no, i didn't bother reading a single word of it because i don't give two ****s about the link or why you decided it makes a difference in any of our lives.

 

bad 'cess to twinks, zigs and gorillas.

 

right.

 

you know what? congrats, you just made the ignore list. i'm tired of reading your forum-LARP'ing.

[Gromnir]

he were a Developer for black isle... you not see title o' thread and follow back to origin? perhaps now you is seeing the point o' the post? a black isle developer speaks to the questionable commercial success o' fallout. bad 'cess to twinks, zigs and gorillas.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Ha!... I was wrong...

 

(I guess my mind is too finely tuned*)

 

*

I hope you've read Hitchhiker's Guide.

 

 

no sweat... and am secure enough to admit that we enjoyed douglas adams' books... in spite o' fact that admitting appreciation of his works carries similar stigma as babylon 5 geekdom and monty python quotes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Kefeinzel]

From what I can tell from being an observer for years, what the one guy calls the 'faction' of fallout fans had pretty consistent desires.

 

Most people wanted an isometric, turn based cRPG with tactical combat that used modern technology and improved on the original games good aspects rather than replacing them.

Good story, writing, and characters with plenty of the choice and consequence that made the original games great also a plus.

 

I'm not sure where the perceptions came from that people wanted a rehash of the old games originally came from, although it's probably linked to the incorrect assumption that turn based/iso is outmoded.

 

I'm not sure I see why any of the above listed desires are a bad thing or impossible today, so hopefully obsidian will "do what it does best", and restore some of these desires back to the forefront.

[Nightshape]

He's used that name for years, and is WELL known among the Fallout [forum] fans ~He's a member here and at Bethsoft, and NMA (and surely others) ~I can understand some not getting it at first... but to be fair, I knew what he meant and I only read it in passing.

 

Brios is who you're thinking, not Briareus, which is what the link puts on top. i have no clue who the guy who the link goes to is.

 

he were a Developer for black isle... you not see title o' thread and follow back to origin? perhaps now you is seeing the point o' the post? a black isle developer speaks to the questionable commercial success o' fallout. bad 'cess to twinks, zigs and gorillas.

 

oh, and chrisA has gotten plenty o' millage from ps:t... but that were kinda the high water mark for him. sorry, but unlike aristes, we were pretty damned unimpressed with the motb joinable npcs. each character were a cliche-- with a hook. 'stead o' the textbook cleric/paladin that questions faith... we gets a winged chick who literal only sees in black n' white. make the character a male-human paladin and who gives dove a second thought, eh? gann... a jolly-rogue womanizer... with mommy issues? makes an elf and how quick you thinks we hear "cliche"? worst of all, we never made no connection with the titular character... can't even recall his name. is not that motb were horrible, but am not thinking it were particularly great work for chrisA.

 

at some point somebody should pull chrisA aside and tell him that characters should be profound, rather than trying to make 'em say lots o' profound stuff. maybe has chrisA read children's books like "the phantom tollbooth" or gaiman's "coraline". heck, gaiman's adult characters not go 'round vomiting forth coffee shop grade existential philosophy... 'cept for maybe in American Gods. kids books is great for beating the excessive introspection habit out o' young authors, 'cause young readers simply don't get such stuff. make chrisA write his characters as if they is speaking to a 10-year old. ravel weren't profound 'cause o' what she said, but 'cause o' how she were used to advance story. kreia were an excellent character as well, though she got a little preachy... but in a star wars jedi that kinda goes with the territory to some degree.

 

don't get us wrong, chrisA has produced some fantastic work... his targos stuff in iwd2 were high point o' the game. even so, he is miss almost as often as he is hit.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Gromnir makes some good points here... Here's my take...

 

Obsidian guys have made some decent games, from a perspective of fun, but from a perspective of software I'm not so certain. Often work has been done using other companies technologies, infact all released titles have had most of their input from extenal sources. It is certainly questionable in regards to how successful Obsidian and Black Isle have ever been at producing good technology, if we take a closer look at these projects what we see is that most failings have always been in the area of technology or bad assesment in regards to production.

 

Lets look at Obsidian's titles:

 

KOTOR II: Content was cut effecting the result and quality of the end of the game, the development time was short, about 12 months if I remember correctly. The content being cut must obviously be due to an over estimation of what was achieveable within the time period a costing, time estimation, and production failing.

 

NWN2: Brand new rendering engine, all in all on release the product suffered from terrible performance (I'm not sure if any content was cut which effected the overall quality of the product so I'd sooner not comment), but clearly there were technical issues and bugs galore on release, meaning that their was an overestimation of the teams capibility to produce desired results over the timeframe allocated. Thankfully the performance has been greatly improved, and the following expansions required alot less focus on developing new tech and more time focusing on content. I can only speculate on the reasons why NWN2 was a bad piece of software on release, legacy code through to over ambitious technology through to lack of technical expertise, it's an unknown but a failing obviously existed.

 

If we go back further and look at BIS titles we begin to see that the lack of technical knowledge having an effect on 3D titles, Torn, FO3, and BG3 all had issues, far as I am aware FO3 and BG3 had pipeline failings, the content pipeline is one of the most important and most used pieces of software in development a long content processing time coupled with potential bugs can kill a game dead before its even begun.

 

All the successful BIS titles used IE, a simpler engine, with an established pipe from bioware, who knows if it was good or bad.

 

I love Obsidian's products, but I wouldn't say they were solid pieces of software, and that is from what I can see having observed and followed the talent for 10 years their major failing and where the focus to improve should really be. This isn't to say that they don't have loads of talented guys working for them, I'm certain that they do. I also have to admit that with every title they continue to get better.

 

In brief, Obsidian can suffer from being a wee bit over ambitious for their development timeframes.

 

My expectations of FO:NV are that it will be well written, fun to play, and probably a more balanced experience, with a heavy focus on content. I do believe that they will likely have Beth's crappy gamebyro based engine dogging them, and the potential for obsidian to fix that broken POS is fairly small.

 

But hey... I'm just guessing so what's it matter.

[Gromnir]

I'm not sure I see why any of the above listed desires are a bad thing or impossible today, so hopefully obsidian will "do what it does best", and restore some of these desires back to the forefront.

 

am recalling that uncle fergie once admitted that fallout's tb combat could be soul-numbing. don't hold your breath on the tb combat. hey, if troika had done a better job with toee it mighta created a tb crpg renaissance... but as toee were a big-fat failure...

 

regardless, am still not seeing what is motivation for obsidian to substantial deviate from what bethesda did. yeah, as many o' the obsidian guys worked on van buren and probably feels like they got cheated out of an opportunity to finish, they may wanna try and incorporate some o' their vb ideas into their new fo game. that being said, they is making a follow-up game to bethesda's extremely successful fo offering. am still not seeing what is obsidan motivation to make wholesale changes... which is what the True Believers seems to want.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[jero cvmi]

"i don't see why Fallout: New Vegas has to be a mindless boom-fest, in order to be successful."

 

what is it with you people and logic?

 

never asked for such or suggested such, so your point is... pointless.

No, your point that " "we"(who?) want The Return Of Ye Olde Fallouts and it's not happening because fallout3 sold millions of copies" is pointless for the same reason, i just reversed your logic.

 

as for literacy o' obsidian... am s'posing you is making a dig at bethesda--- suggest that fo3 turned out the way it did 'cause their writers were... illiterate? yes, very amusing. still not a particular convincing argument though, is it?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I'm not into internet digging as much as you, but i gave it a shot:

Other -more relevant- quotes can be found, it's just too much of a dig for me for today.

 

One can be illiterate deliberately:

 

Eurogamer: You've gone for a very traditional dialogue system. Did you consider trying something new?

 

Pete Hines: It's old school. After a certain point, when you're taking on a project of this magnitude, you've got to pick your battles, and you can't pick them all because you just end up trying to be everything and not being anything. Dialogue wasn't a battle we wanted to pick. It is a bit old-school, but it works well for what we're trying to do, and there were other things that were more important for us to spend time and energy on, like trying to incorporate VATS into a real world combat system and still incorporate the stats and not unbalance the game. That's a big undertaking, and spending time from a development standpoint on the actual dialogue and the camera angle it's being presented on - we just don't have unlimited monkeys and typewriters.

 

Enough said, illiteracy has been defined. Judging by the games they've worked on, and posts of theirs i've read, I'm pretty confident that Obsidian folks have a quite different approach to writing, even if Torment -for example- was not exactly a masterpiece of literature. It's the attitude towards writing that's obviously different, and that's fine for me. Good fun to you too.

[Gizmo]

...

HA! Good Fun!

That Shaw Quote is tops!

 

I don't see why Obsidian would not add a few options seen lacking in FO3 while they're in its guts ~so to speak.

 

edited for silly mistake.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Gizmo

[Killian Kalthorne]

I use to get so hung up on canon and what should make a true sequel or something to be true to the setting and all that assorted nonsense. Still am on some things but in the end the only thing that matters is if the game is fun or not. If the game is fun, then play it. If the game is not fun, then don't play it. That is the only thing that really matters. Fallout 3 is a fun game. Is it true to the originals? Nope. Was it ever going to be? nope. Don't like it, then don't play it. Problem solved.

 

I am just sick and tired of all this useless arguing about one feature over this feature, over games that are over a decade old, and so forth. I guess that is probably why I don't visit the forums as much any more I guess.

[Gromnir]

@ ziggy

 

"No, your point that " "we"(who?) want The Return Of Ye Olde Fallouts and it's not happening because fallout3 sold millions of copies" is pointless for the same reason, i just reversed your logic."

 

don't put something in quotes if Gromnir didn't actually say. is a kinda lying.

 

also, am not sure what you think the peter hines quote means... more than we suspect peter hines meant. the infinite monkey theorem is always good for a laugh. wanna a neato quote from chrisA wherein he observes that gameplay is more important than story/writing? "a game's story should always be secondary to gameplay". can also dig up a quote where the lead developer for iwd2 admitted that he had virtual 0 time to come up with the story for that game.

 

am not sure you know what you think you know.

 

@ gizmo

 

sure they is gonna tinker and fiddle with stuff. listen to josh sawyer talk 'bout how illegitimate vats combat were makes us think that he would like to do tweaking... but how much? 'nuff so that it no longer resembles fo3? doubt it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tagaziel]

I don't see why Obsidian should blindly copy/paste Bethesda's design. With all its flaws, Fo3 is still extremely mutable, just look at the Fo3 Compendium, various gameplay mods like Explosive Entry or Enclave Commander, weapon mods etc.

 

I am confident that they will create something akin to KOTOR2's upgrade system - take a basic feature, dial it to the max, put it on crack, dump in FEV and create an extremely playable monstrosity.

 

<3

[mkreku]

Most people wanted an isometric, turn based cRPG with tactical combat...

Are you sure? I wouldn't be surprised if the FPS version of Fallout (Fallout 3) sold more than all the other Fallout's combined by now.

 

I don't even think "most people" wanted the original Fallouts to be what you describe. And that was ten years ago!

 

Personally, that's where I thought Bethesda did their best job: the transition from an obsolete play-with-dolls view to first person view. The moment you step out of the vault in Fallout 3 and your eyes adjust to the light and you see this vast wasteland before you.. and you realize it's all there for you to explore and enjoy.. That was powerful. Of course, then I found the story and the game sank like a rock. Still! Credit where credit is due: the wasteland is wonderfully realized.

[Tigranes]

He wasn't referring to 'most people' out of 'all gamers' mkreku. Woops?

[mkreku]

He wasn't referring to 'most people' out of 'all gamers' mkreku. Woops?

Uh.. I still don't get it.

[Tagaziel]

It's kind of an obvious fact, that Fallout was never intended to be mainstream. It was a recreation of the PNP gameplay and feel, aimed at a niche, in a time when going full 3D and realtime was the bandwagon most RPGs happily jumped on.

[Gizmo]

I use to get so hung up on canon and what should make a true sequel or something to be true to the setting and all that assorted nonsense. Still am on some things but in the end the only thing that matters is if the game is fun or not. If the game is fun, then play it. If the game is not fun, then don't play it. That is the only thing that really matters. Fallout 3 is a fun game. Is it true to the originals? Nope. Was it ever going to be? nope. Don't like it, then don't play it. Problem solved.

 

I am just sick and tired of all this useless arguing about one feature over this feature, over games that are over a decade old, and so forth. I guess that is probably why I don't visit the forums as much any more I guess.

It can be fun, its true, but then you realize what it could have been and it saps the fun away.

 

Just think back to the Dune Sci-Fi Channel Mini series ~Then think what it could have been ~Heck Think back to the film when H.R. Giger was the set designer, and the new director decided to can him... then made a Dune adaptation that looked like it used recycled props from Flash Gordon.

 

I see Fallout three like that, I see the 4

[mkreku]

It's kind of an obvious fact, that Fallout was never intended to be mainstream. It was a recreation of the PNP gameplay and feel, aimed at a niche, in a time when going full 3D and realtime was the bandwagon most RPGs happily jumped on.

Yeah, I'm sure they sat in their boardroom discussing Fallout's development going, "We don't care how this sells, as long as it caters to a yet unformed mass of fans".

[Gromnir]

"I am confident that they will create something akin to KOTOR2's upgrade system"

 

eh? ok, we agree with you. kotor and kotor2 had same basic combat and same basic character development... added some prestige classes and feats, right?

 

story telling and dialogues was similar from a mechanics perspective... am s'posing that thematically kotor2 were arguably darker, but as it were still lucas/star wars is tough to say how much o' the pap consistency o' the story were obsidian choice or publisher choice. personally we were not impressed with the influence system and have criticized it numerous times... but it were a new feature and if you liked then we s'pose it were a good thing.

 

obsidian fixed loads o' little things... like interface issues and some o' the persistent bugs... though they did create a few additional problems with their tweekage. regardless, there were loads o' little things wrong with kotor, so fixing many such little things were a big task.

 

item creation were a big change in kotor2... though it were kinda busted and unbalanced. am not sure if item creation in kotor2 deserves to be in the win column.

 

other than the last 1/8th of game, we thought that kotor2 were noticeable superior to kotor... better story telling, characters, and being a sequel kotor2 the game simply had more... stuff. last 1/8th o' game... well, that is better left in past, right?

 

*shrug*

 

is tough to figure out True Believers. we witnessed first-hand how troika gots a free pass from many of the faithful. perhaps obsidian is now the successor to the birthright of cain. would be nice for obsidian.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[TwinkieGorilla]

Yeah, I'm sure they sat in their boardroom discussing Fallout's development going, "We don't care how this sells, as long as it caters to a yet unformed mass of fans".

 

no. more likely they said "let's do something different." which was the point Mikael was making.

[skuld1]

Are you sure? I wouldn't be surprised if the FPS version of Fallout (Fallout 3) sold more than all the other Fallout's combined by now.

 

There are no exact sales figures for any of the FO games, but if you use generally accepted estimates FO3 has actually sold about three times as many copies as all the other FO titles combined.

[Tagaziel]

Hamburgers outsell high cuisine everyday, but that doesn't make them automatically better/healthier, so the argument success=quality can be dropped already.

[TwinkieGorilla]

wtf is the deal with you people and your interwebs sales figures?! who cares?? how can that possibly figure into the inherent quality of something? Christina Aguilera sold more records in her time than the Velvet Underground, who sold very little in their time but have gone on to become one of the most highly revered and influential rock and roll bands of all time. again, what the effing eff do sales have to do with anything other than some silly e-peen measuring attempts in strawman arguments??