Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[Fionavar]

Thread Pruned: Consider that the Big Green's has left the roost and the next flap-by will mean I have to use special powers and buttons ...

[Gromnir]

quick observation:

 

don't assume that Gromnir thought that fo3 were a great game. truth-to-tell, we Did enjoy paying through fallout, but we liked in spite of the obvious flaws. character development choices become largely meaningless if you can become highly proficient in a majority o' the available skills... no genuine costs. many o' the design choices and writing flaws we hated in oblivion were present in fo3. nevertheless, Gromnir devoted considerable hours playing fo3, and we not feel as if we were cheated. end were a bit abrupt, but we had fun.

 

'course, the reasons we thought fo3 were flawed has nothing to do with fo canon.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps bethesda earned big bonus points with their Danny Kaye & Billie Holiday songs in fo3.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Gromnir

[Aristes]

I'm the one who started the latest round of the 'ol' skool hardcore Fallout fan' discussion. First of all, I didn't mean to put everyone on the defensive about it. I'm going to have a long say, and I'm afraid it will offend some members. It's not my intent, but I apologize in advance.

 

You guys don't like this strange phenomenon of grouping Fallout fans together? Why is there such a phenomenon in the first place? It's not like folks got up one morning and said, "hey, let's create a conspiracy to take jabs at folks from the Codex and NMA and etc."

 

This perception exists, and, while I should not have to point out every petty, self evident fact, I'll get a few of them out of the way. No, I don't think that Ol' Skool Hardcore Fallout Fans (the Faction*) is a hive mind. No, I don't think that everyone who rails 'gainst Fallout 3 hates it because it isn't Fallout 1. No, I don't think everyone who hates it does so because they're a Bethesda hater. Etc. I'm sure some of these factors are true in some cases, but not all. I, myself, am a huge fan of the original series, so I don't even think being a true 'Fallout Fan' automatically puts you in this faction.

 

As you can see, I describe folks associated with this phenomenon as part of a faction. Maybe a leaderless faction that has formed organically, but the members are in a faction. In other words, you don't have to 'join' to be part of the Faction.

 

The way I see it, there is a certain consistency in the types and nature of arguments that come from the Faction. That's one reason it's a clearly defined group. On the other hand, because most folks can understand that folks aren't hive-minded and that each of the arguments, especially individually, are perfectly legitimate springboards for discussion, it's hard to point at any particular person and accuse them of being part of the Faction. Plus, it's just rude to do so. It's like when folks used the term "Fallout Taliban" or some of the less fortunate names associated with a group of folks who are defined by the desire to see a return to their favorite Fallout principles.

 

Now, you might want to flame me for bringing this up, and I'll forgive you if you do. Certainly, I don't want the mods to put anybody on mod status for bringing a little heat to their response. Anything you call me or say in regards to my mental state from petty to grandiose to stupid to whatever, I've heard before.

 

However, the 800lb gorilla in the room is the fact that folks perceive a Fallout Faction and they respond to it. Hell, the Faction is famous. For example, the folks who made BoS** literally had a plan for dealing with the Fallout Faction. They had decided to "fight fire with fire." I thought it was a silly assed idea, but those were their words, not mine. Allegedly, one of the Faction posted the name, address, and telephone number of each of the people in the design team. I don't know for sure if that's true, but I know that folks seemed to be quite aggitate by the Faction. More to the point, Bethesda has an incredibly draconian response to folks they think are part of the Fallout Faction. Cronicler says he's been booted several times. Now, unless his posts there were significantly more hostile than here, such booting demonstrates a zero tolerance policy that I find truly remarkable. The Faction has a rep. There's not getting around it. ...And, whether you, as an individual, like it or not, you might belong in the Faction, since perceived membership is defined by online arguments and attitudes.

 

So, sorry, but you're going to hear about how the Faction wants this or doesn't want that or will never be satisfied with such. It's going to happen and I think it's perfectly legit to cite the group since the ship has already sailed in terms of defining it.

 

As for the Van Buren idea... no. There were certainly less flames regarding IP's Van Buren project, but I was around some during the time Van Buren was under development. There were folks who were unhappy about a lot of the ideas in Van Buren. There are still folks who disparage Fallout 2, for crying out loud, as not being true to the spirit of Fallout. Yeah, the members of the Faction might decline depending on the circumstances, but there will still be a Faction no matter what feasible game hits the shelves and it will still be a readily identified and vocal faction.

 

Having gotten that out of the way, I'm willing to take the heat for stating the obvious. I've been pretty much left out of the flaming sessions in this thread and I'm pretty durable, so I might as well be the guy who says it.

 

*I'm not trying to coin a phrase with the Faction thing, by the way. I'm just using it for short-hand and it's far less offensive than the other short hand terms I've heard.

 

**I didn't play the game and I know I'm opening up a can worms as we descend into the pit of BoS hating.

 

If the mod team believes this post is over the top or too prone to bring a post-apocalyptic wasteland to this thread, feel free to send it to the gulag.

[Mikhailian]

yeah, pretty much agree with all of that. ouch.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I think your post is probably too long-winded to incite true flames, only increasingly long-winded replies.

 

In my defense, I wasn't really into trolling forums back in the Fallout 1 days, otherwise I probably would've criticized that too. Now it just seems like it's too late, kind of like criticizing pong for lack of character development.

 

Being compared is kind of the fate of sequels, particularly those by a third party. I would be pretty comfortable accepting the assertion that Fallout 3 more resembles an Elder Scrolls title than the first two Fallout games. In that sense, it isn't a "true" fallout game. That said, it's the direction the franchise has taken. Perhaps Obsidian will take it in yet another direction, but this won't be a return to the days of old; it will be Obsidian's take on the franchise within the context of every game that has come before (including FO3). People may *claim* it is a "return to the roots" when they discover it's quite good, but it's actually a process of moving the franchise forward rather than backwards.

[TwinkieGorilla]

*uses restraint*

 

 

can we just move on? i don't want to get banned from this site and i already got the finger waved at me today.

[Gizmo]

This perception exists, and, while I should not have to point out every petty, self evident fact, I'll get a few of them out of the way. No, I don't think that Ol' Skool Hardcore Fallout Fans (the Faction*) is a hive mind. No, I don't think that everyone who rails 'gainst Fallout 3 hates it because it isn't Fallout 1. No, I don't think everyone who hates it does so because they're a Bethesda hater. Etc. I'm sure some of these factors are true in some cases, but not all. I, myself, am a huge fan of the original series, so I don't even think being a true 'Fallout Fan' automatically puts you in this faction.

For the record... I am not a Bethesda hater (and though I like "Stone Prophet" more... I did not dislike Oblivion ~I also really like that little coin I can't find )

 

What I don't like about Fallout 3 is plainly posted across the Bethsoft forums for the last two years ~What's not posted (nuked by their automated thread pruning), is that I was one of the first to compliment the Dev team via PM as having utterly nailed the FO atmosphere (as of June 7th 2007); I compared what I had seen as par to the job the film crew did for BladeRunner, when adapting it from the book (and meant it). This was well before I found out that there was only FPP in the game (and the TPP side effect), This was before I saw Todd making the rounds showing gameplay.

 

I dislike FO3 because ~specifically, they decided that High "Isometric" (3d) was out, rather than make it a functional part of the intended gameplay as was found in the entire series (including FOBOS); As I've said before, I cannot care any less about being put "IN" the fallout world "like I wuz reelly there"; I am far more interested in seeing the game depict the character is his own world, than view what I might see in his shoes. ~Fallout3 doesn't intend for this despite that being perhaps the most obvious thing you see at first glance in ANY other Fallout game.

 

Secondly, FO was matter-of-fact and demanded common sense; FO3 lets you get away with anything and return in X number of hours and all is forgiven. The game is more about shooting than absolutely anything else Stark opposite from the series IMO.

 

Third Combat: I liked the series for its combat (and for the fact that the devs had a devious knack for anticipating exactly what you'd want to say in any given situation. )

 

Fallout 1 & 2 & Tactics would put you in a losing position, and with careful choices, allow for you to turn the tide and survive the fight (preferably with all your NPC's bleeding, but alive) ~Fallout 3 is only about You, and Your experience ~If dogmeat dies you get mad at him for being "Stuupid", and the puppies perk makes this worse. Fallout 3 has overlooked, dismissed, and even belittled absolutely every single thing about the entire series that I enjoyed, and one gets damn tired of thread skimmers that post "you are just afraid of change" [and worse insults ~from both members and mods alike].

 

I laugh at the argument as I'm enamored with games of all types ~ new and old; But when the new comes with an attitude and removes all trace of the old, that's a problem... That's the very same thing as ordering crapes and being given waffles with a rude expression and them saying, "What's wrong with you? they're close enough and waffles taste better anyway ~get over yourself!"

 

EDIT

I would ask anyone here to examine these clips (pretending they know nothing of the series, and say which one Fallout 3 seems the "sequel" to)

 

 

Edited May 7, 2009 by Gizmo

[Gromnir]

labels is a convenience, the application o' which inevitably leads to some misunderstandings.

 

*shrug*

 

"Then explain what makes a "true" Fallout game, and why Beth's FO3 isn't one."

 

am not so much concerned with labels, but like hell kitty, the "true" fallout stuff perplexes us. fo had plenty o' flaws. fo were a pc game made in the late 1990s. fo were only a moderate good seller (if that). fo were just a game and the notion o' canon for a game seems misplaced. am not certain why staying "true" to fallout is seen as a positive. sure, as genuine and potential customers, the True Believers got considerable interest in attempting to convince the developers that fallout canon is worthy o' protection. fine... am all for trying to sway developers... to influence change. am simply not understanding how a "true" fallout argument is persuasive... 'less the developer in question is already a True Believer, in which case the argument need not be made.

 

if a feature or idea is worthy it should survive on its own merits rather than 'cause o' the imagined consanguineous relationship 'tween parent game and its progeny. those folks who speak o' the "true fallout" is the ones we typical throw into the fallout faction bin... though that probable ain't fair... not that we feels any genuine remorse.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

"I think your post is probably too long-winded to incite true flames, only increasingly long-winded replies."

 

am gonna observe that while Gromnir's post count ain't near as high as some folks 'round here, our total word count would probable be in the top 10. brevity is no prerequisite for flame war tinder... not that we thought that aristes post was particularly... charged/loaded?

Edited May 7, 2009 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

Always tell people's true intent by how they keep telling you otherwise, heh.

[Gizmo]

"Then explain what makes a "true" Fallout game, and why Beth's FO3 isn't one."

I would say its the intention and game philosophy (That is perceivable beyond what was actually in those games )

 

Fallout 3 is incessantly compared (by many) to a game that needed a Pentium 90 and 16MB system ram. But its what it did with that ram. Fallout 3 demands 32 times the memory and a minimum P4 2400MHz ~but all it does with it is present the pretty lights and the unnecessary havok sims... Imagine someone was playing the game and telling you about it over the phone "Dude~ I just Nuked a town!" "Dude I just Nuked a Church" (or an Oil Rig)... Or "This woman just hired me to step on a land mine", "This dude wants me to record a confession". Without the graphics the game is weak by comparison ~its a crutch. Its not bad to have good graphics, but they are supposed to be the icing on the cake ~not the cake.

 

Those that made Fallout 3 should have looked to apply their tech to show off the best in Fallout, not looked to apply what they could of Fallout to show off their tech.

 

Fallout's heads were amazing at the time; Fallout 3's heads (for their time) are not. ~They should have wanted them to look like

, and changed their design to make it possible.

[entrerix]

yeah its weird how the people talking looked better in fallout 1 than in 3.

 

I need to throw in my 2 cents:

 

Fallout 1 and 2 are my two favorite games ever.

 

I loved fallout 3.

 

fallout 3 was (in spirit, not name) a sequel to oblivion, NOT to fallout 1 and 2. It corrected many flaws oblivion had, but was not perfect. Games don't need to be perfect to be fun. Fallout New Vegas will be an improved fallout 3. I'm looking forward to it.

 

For the record, I dont think we will ever have a true sequel to fallout, same as torment. I want one too, but I'm not going to give up on modern games because they don't make em like they used to. It would be nice to have ten more writers working in games with the skills of chris avellone though. I imagine as games grow more popular a niche of well written games will arise. After all, in the movie world we can have fun fluff like Iron Man come out and do well, as well as movies like There Will Be Blood. Sooner or later the game world will have as much diversity.

 

also how do I ignore gromnir on these forums, I can't stand that he posts as a character.

[TwinkieGorilla]

yeah its weird how the people talking looked better in fallout 1 than in 3.

 

I need to throw in my 2 cents:

 

Fallout 1 and 2 are my two favorite games ever.

 

I loved fallout 3.

 

fallout 3 was (in spirit, not name) a sequel to oblivion, NOT to fallout 1 and 2. It corrected many flaws oblivion had, but was not perfect. Games don't need to be perfect to be fun. Fallout New Vegas will be an improved fallout 3. I'm looking forward to it.

 

For the record, I dont think we will ever have a true sequel to fallout, same as torment. I want one too, but I'm not going to give up on modern games because they don't make em like they used to. It would be nice to have ten more writers working in games with the skills of chris avellone though. I imagine as games grow more popular a niche of well written games will arise. After all, in the movie world we can have fun fluff like Iron Man come out and do well, as well as movies like There Will Be Blood. Sooner or later the game world will have as much diversity.

 

well said. i agree with everything except for the "loved FO3" part (though i did like it well enough as a game...just not as a Fallout game).

 

also how do I ignore gromnir on these forums, I can't stand that he posts as a character.

 

i especially agree with this. i searched for the ignore function earlier and couldn't find it.

[Gizmo]

yeah its weird how the people talking looked better in fallout 1 than in 3.

 

I need to throw in my 2 cents:

Indeed... What I've seen in F3 holds nothing on the originals ~and it shouldn't be that way.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/G...junk/GHOULS.jpg

 

Voice work in Fallout Blows F3 out of the running.

 

*Incidentally... Having not finished F3... Is there even a single conversation in it on par with the Lieutenant or the Master?

 

...also how do I ignore gromnir on these forums, I can't stand that he posts as a character.

Forums... The Best RPG ever made

Edited May 7, 2009 by Gizmo

[jero cvmi]

WTF is bri?

 

what is motivation for obsidian to return to 'ye goode olde days o' fallout? love o' the game? temporary insanity?

Literacy.

 

as noted earlier, pretty much every troika game sounded great... right up until you actually loaded on hard drive. big ideas count for squat if they ain't implemented well.

 

I spent 20 times more, and uncountable times happier time with Bloodlines than i did with Fallout 3.

 

so, obsidian ain't in this biz to make money, but instead is attempting to educate a new generation o' gamers... or somesuch nonsense.

 

ps 'cause ziggy asked... http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic...ighlight=#23414

 

erm... i was talking about Literacy of the people who work in Obsidian, as opposed to monkeys with typewriters in bethesda, not literacy of the general public.

 

i don't see why Fallout: New Vegas has to be a mindless boom-fest, in order to be successful.

Lets test it by your own logic:

 

Obsidian is not unsuccessful

 

Obsidian makes RPGs with solid stories, and some of the people who work there are extremely talented (and also worked on ye olde fallouts)

 

What is the motivation for Obsidian to play out of its league and make something very similar to Fallout 3? Hope for millions of sales and a new target audience? The fact that Fallout 3 is a mainstream franchise? But, Star Wars is even more mainstream, and i understand that KOTOR2 is something very different from an Action FPS with stats. Besides, as an old acquaintance would say: "They have to do what they do best".

 

Oh, and i would hereby like to petition to autocensor the words " ain't ", " o' " and " an' ". they aren't quicker to type than their english counterparts, and therefore i don't see what purpose they serve other than making your posts painful to read.

 

And thanks for the link. A post from 6 years ago by someone who's not even in this discussion, and you only type the first 3 out of his 11 lettter nick?

I should have guessed it, how stupid of me.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Ziggy the Atomic Granpa

[Gizmo]

And thanks for the link. A post from 6 years ago by someone who's not even in this discussion, and you only type the first 3 aout of his 11 lettter nick?

I should have guessed it, how stupid of me.

He's used that name for years, and is WELL known among the Fallout [forum] fans ~He's a member here and at Bethsoft, and NMA (and surely others) ~I can understand some not getting it at first... but to be fair, I knew what he meant and I only read it in passing.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Gizmo

[Kelverin]

[TwinkieGorilla]

He's used that name for years, and is WELL known among the Fallout [forum] fans ~He's a member here and at Bethsoft, and NMA (and surely others) ~I can understand some not getting it at first... but to be fair, I knew what he meant and I only read it in passing.

 

Brios is who you're thinking, not Briareus, which is what the link puts on top. i have no clue who the guy who the link goes to is.

Edited May 7, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[CoM_Solaufein]

Lets continue on the discussion about the game in development and not about fellow forum members. Last warning.

[Aristes]

Aside from all the crap about posting styles, the topic of which I find silly, I think you're entirely right, Ziggy.

 

I think one of the biggest hopes that I have personally is that Obsidian follows a similar pattern with FO:NV that they did when making KotOR2. In fact, it's a particularly apt comparison in that I really liked KotOR, but KotOR2 brought some real improvements. NWN2 was not, in my opinion, a shining moment, but I think the quality of MotB proves itself. I never played SoZ, mostly because I'm fairly sick and tired of the NWN franchise, but I know that they put a lot of creative effort into it.

 

I'm an MCA fan, I guess, but not a particularly ardent one. However, I think the Obsidian team as a whole has a lot of talent, which is most apparent, to me personally, in the writing and design work it did for MotB and the simply splendid atmospheric quality of KotOR2.

 

In the meantime, I don't see what any particular aspect of the game can't get a tweak. Earlier, I said PoV was probably off the table, but why not improve 3rd person for folks who want it? I don't think Obsidian an do everything given their current time frame, but I think they will probabaly brain storm on things that they will improve, and I'm convinced some of it will transcend story.

 

Edit: Removed references to members.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Aristes

[Gfted1]

Man, Gromnir's been around so long Im surprised there are posters that dont know of his posting style. You should all be glad Sargrath doesnt post!

[TwinkieGorilla]

I'm an MCA fan, I guess, but not a particularly ardent one. However, I think the Obsidian team as a whole has a lot of talent, which is most apparent, to me personally, in the writing and design work it did for MotB and the simply splendid atmospheric quality of KotOR2.

 

not particularly ardent, eh (you still used the M!) care to elaborate? just curious is all. i feel like it'd be impossible not to kowtow to the man for creating some of the deepest character/dialogue/backstories of all time. this is not to say i hold him (or anyone) in such regard as to ignore his/their lesser qualities or say he/they're without faults.

 

regarding Obsidian and KOTOR2 in the light of FO:NV right now though...you're right. it did have a splendid atmospheric quality. but it also had a splendid feeling of "holy crap this game musta been rushed like the devil himself was cracking the whip!" i am very wary in keeping my hopes in check right now. i fear we may see the same thing.

[Aristes]

I really like his work, but I still consider him part of a team. I am biased because of PS:T. He also did the dialogue for Gann in MotB, which I thought was very well done.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I am biased because of PS:T.

 

in a good way or bad way?

 

 

ahh, MoTB. i wish we could get a Fallout game which looks like that. i really like the way (for the most part) The Witcher handled the aurora engine. *sigh* a guy can dream, no? one thing i really do wish we'd find out sooner than later is that MCA will be lending a great big helping hand to FO:NV.

[Gromnir]

"i don't see why Fallout: New Vegas has to be a mindless boom-fest, in order to be successful."

 

what is it with you people and logic?

 

never asked for such or suggested such, so your point is... pointless.

 

regardless, if you wanna follow obsidian career, we is game.

 

kotor2 followed same basic model as did kotor... just added more stuff. used same basic rules and character development choices and you still gots same kinda epic save-the-galaxy scenario. all npcs stay on ebon hawk and you chat up between missions. the influence bit was added to kotor 2, but again, it were hardly a complete change in npc interactions were it. folks who were expecting kotor2 to be similar to kotor were not disappointed.

 

nwn2 made some substantial changes to nwn2, but it were still recognizable epic fantasy, and unlike kotor, the sp aspect of nwn took some considerable criticism. the fallout faction as aristes labeled you folks, is hardly similar in numbers to the folks who complained 'bout the nwn sp aspect. even so, with nwn2 you got nwn... but with a functional party. used many o' the existing prestige classes but didn't make lots of wholesale changes. many of the changes obsidian made to nwn2 were stuff that the modding community had already done to nwn themselves... kinda likes how ad&d was little more than a codification o' the most popular house rules for d&d backs in 1978. is understating the value of obsidian input as they did not simply utilize fan-made mods in nwn2, but nwn2 were recognizable as nwn.

 

is actual amusing to recollect iwd2. iwd were a black isle game, but in spite of super-speed development cycle, black isle tries to bootstrap iwd2 from ad&d to d&d 3e. am actually thinking they did a pretty good job with that, but is probable one o' the more dramatic changes we seen by the obsidian/black isle folks for a sequel or expansion project.

 

oh, and HoW... is perhaps one o' the more laughably misguided crpg expansions we seen in a decade. you wanna reference the small number o' talented fo folks who is current at obsidian? well how 'bout the HoW folks. HoW were an expansion o' iwd and 'cause it were so short and so underwhelming, the black isle folks created totl, a free supplement to HoW... and a pretty darn good one. even so, is not as if obsidian/black isle has a irreproachable record with expansions and sequels... throw Torn into mix (ain't gonna blame that on interplay, is you?) as an example o' the work o' the talented folks now at obsidian?

 

*shrug*

 

 

as for literacy o' obsidian... am s'posing you is making a dig at bethesda--- suggest that fo3 turned out the way it did 'cause their writers were... illiterate? yes, very amusing. still not a particular convincing argument though, is it?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

He's used that name for years, and is WELL known among the Fallout [forum] fans ~He's a member here and at Bethsoft, and NMA (and surely others) ~I can understand some not getting it at first... but to be fair, I knew what he meant and I only read it in passing.

 

Brios is who you're thinking, not Briareus, which is what the link puts on top. i have no clue who the guy who the link goes to is.

 

he were a Developer for black isle... you not see title o' thread and follow back to origin? perhaps now you is seeing the point o' the post? a black isle developer speaks to the questionable commercial success o' fallout. bad 'cess to twinks, zigs and gorillas.

 

oh, and chrisA has gotten plenty o' millage from ps:t... but that were kinda the high water mark for him. sorry, but unlike aristes, we were pretty damned unimpressed with the motb joinable npcs. each character were a cliche-- with a hook. 'stead o' the textbook cleric/paladin that questions faith... we gets a winged chick who literal only sees in black n' white. make the character a male-human paladin and who gives dove a second thought, eh? gann... a jolly-rogue womanizer... with mommy issues? makes an elf and how quick you thinks we hear "cliche"? worst of all, we never made no connection with the titular character... can't even recall his name. is not that motb were horrible, but am not thinking it were particularly great work for chrisA.

 

at some point somebody should pull chrisA aside and tell him that characters should be profound, rather than trying to make 'em say lots o' profound stuff. maybe has chrisA read children's books like "the phantom tollbooth" or gaiman's "coraline". heck, gaiman's adult characters not go 'round vomiting forth coffee shop grade existential philosophy... 'cept for maybe in American Gods. kids books is great for beating the excessive introspection habit out o' young authors, 'cause young readers simply don't get such stuff. make chrisA write his characters as if they is speaking to a 10-year old. ravel weren't profound 'cause o' what she said, but 'cause o' how she were used to advance story. kreia were an excellent character as well, though she got a little preachy... but in a star wars jedi that kinda goes with the territory to some degree.

 

don't get us wrong, chrisA has produced some fantastic work... his targos stuff in iwd2 were high point o' the game. even so, he is miss almost as often as he is hit.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 7, 2009 by Gromnir