Americans set to get standardised/universal healthcare

[Aristes]

I don't see any big changes coming, we've been having these same arguments since the articles of the confederation. In 3-7 years we will have an entirely different leadership and we will argue about the same issues.

 

 

As for State run UHC, I'm not sure I want California running anything at this point. I have no idea how a state with a GNP larger than most countries is in such a pitiful state.

We barely made it into one coherent union in the first place and we've been dragging ourselves forward in that union since day one. Since before day one. Since we were a bunch of wildly independent colonies. I haven't given up hope in the United States and I won't. We can say our peace. We can vote. We can make our will known. The side with the most money behind it has not always won the day. In fact, there are many times when the side spending the most money has gone down to inglorious defeat.

 

I don't want to give up a single New Englander, no matter how much he reviles me for being a 'conservative' and I, in a fit of passion, revile him as being a 'liberal.'

[Meshugger]

I somewhat agree with Pat Buchanan....i feel a bit dirty now

 

Anyhoo, thanks to the great internet, i found a fun anecdote:

 

In many ways, foreign health-care models are not really "foreign" to America, because our crazy-quilt health-care system uses elements of all of them. For Native Americans or veterans, we're Britain: The government provides health care, funding it through general taxes, and patients get no bills. For people who get insurance through their jobs, we're Germany: Premiums are split between workers and employers, and private insurance plans pay private doctors and hospitals. For people over 65, we're Canada: Everyone pays premiums for an insurance plan run by the government, and the public plan pays private doctors and hospitals according to a set fee schedule. And for the tens of millions without insurance coverage, we're Burundi or Burma: In the world's poor nations, sick people pay out of pocket for medical care; those who can't pay stay sick or die.

 

The whole article can be found here (Washington Post)

 

To summarize:

 

[Hurlshort]

That is a fantastic picture :D

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm just glad Buchanan was able to take time out of his busy schedule defending hitler to predict the coming doom of our country.

[lord of flies]

I'm just glad Buchanan, apartheid defender, was able to take time out of his busy schedule of being a far-right idiot to make some mindless middle bull**** comment. The actual problem is that political discourse in America has moved so far to the right, that even the most milquetoast, center-right reformism gets cast as far-left craziness.

[Aristes]

Buchanan is completely bunk. Wrathie's right. He not only defends Hitler, but vilifies Churchill. How messed up is that? The guy is a September 1 Truther for crying out loud. Well, not really, but you know what I mean.

 

Anyhow, I haven't forgotten about you, Walsh. It's just that it takes a long time to write anything substantive on a topic so broad. ...And a topic where so many of us here lack firsthand knowledge of the ins and outs of policy. My background certainly isn't in healthcare administration.

 

A couple things I will say is that I don't believe that placing UHC on top of our current arrangement will save us a damned thing. I think it will literally break the bank. Trying to remove Medicare is simply impossible. No party will take on Medicare to replace it with UHC. It's not going to happen soon and we can judge how desperate the situation is in the United States by the issue. When folks talk about scrapping Medicare, I know it's time to stock up on Toilet paper, food, and ammunition, because all hell is about to break loose.

 

That's why the fiscal savings arguments don't do much for me. Meshugger has that blurb a couple posts up and I think it completely describes the situation. No one group wants to give up what it has to get UHC. I'm convinced that my wife and I have much better insurance than anything the reformers want to put in place in terms of normal healthcare. If we get a long term debilitating disease, that would undoubtedly not be true. On the other hand, my wife sees specialists extremely quickly and with hardly any paper work on our end. My mother has already had her MRI and had two meetings with the neurologist in regards to one condition within the entire time frame it has taken for an English friend to be diagnosed with a heart problem and then to see her cardiologist. No joke, as far as I know, she still hasn't seen her cardiologist. Anecdotal? Sure, but real people I personally know at the very least.

 

The other thing is, 5% is not a huge return on an investment. I agree that the insurance industry is not efficient. On the other hand, the premier govt run plan, Medicare, is apparently so screwed up that the feds can squeeze 500 billion dollars out of it to pay for a government option that isn't even UHC. It's not even close. I don't think insurance companies are terrible because the investors expect to make money. I believe the actual payoff per dollar for the insurance companies is closer to 3 than 5, but there are other companies that make much more money per dollar. At some point, we have to stop worrying that someone might actually make money off of providing a service. We have a capitalist system and, no matter how much doom or gloom you guys spout, that system has served the United States well. The time is coming to pay the piper, but whatever we decide to do, we should not abandon a free market system. On a final note regarding this matter, I don't think UHC and free markets in general are mutually exclusive. For example, we don't have a private army for national defense. We could implement UHC and still have a free market system in place for other products and services. It does, however, undermine the free market principle.

 

If we could start from scratch, I would be less hostile to UHC. I would still be against it on principle, but if the people wanted it, I'd live with it. What I cannot see working is mixing the two. I know I've said this several times, but we can't slap UHC on what we already have. ...And most of the demographic groups that weild real political power in the United States do not want to give up what they have in order to be part of a standardized system. Obama simply didn't win because he promised to reform healthcare. Most people in the US, even now, place the deficit and the economy before healthcare in terms of importance, and that's after months of privately funded commercials and endless government infomercials.

 

Obama won because Bush was unpopular and the economy staggered. He owes less to anything he said for his victory than the fact that the public associated McCain, who is also a pretty lackluster politician, with Bush.

[Junai]

At some point, we have to stop worrying that someone might actually make money off of providing a service. We have a capitalist system and, no matter how much doom or gloom you guys spout, that system has served the United States well.

 

It's immoral to make a profit off illness and people's fear of death, preying on the sick and downtrodden.

 

J.

[Hurlshort]

At some point, we have to stop worrying that someone might actually make money off of providing a service. We have a capitalist system and, no matter how much doom or gloom you guys spout, that system has served the United States well.

 

It's immoral to make a profit off illness and people's fear of death, preying on the sick and downtrodden.

 

J.

 

It's also American, gosh darnit!

 

Seriously though, do you expect doctors and nurses to work for free? There is obviously a line that needs to be drawn somewhere, but there has to be some profit or you wouldn't have anyone involved in medicine.

 

For example, pharmaceutical companies probably make way too much money in this country, but they do need to have a healthy profit in order to fund more research and development, because that is the only way stuff will get better.

[Kelverin]

At some point, we have to stop worrying that someone might actually make money off of providing a service. We have a capitalist system and, no matter how much doom or gloom you guys spout, that system has served the United States well.

 

It's immoral to make a profit off illness and people's fear of death, preying on the sick and downtrodden.

 

J.

 

 

Seriously though, do you expect doctors and nurses to work for free?

Agreed or anyone else for that matter, societies growing sense of entitlement is getting scary.

[Guard Dog]

I'm just glad Buchanan was able to take time out of his busy schedule defending hitler to predict the coming doom of our country.

He is not a fine upstanding human being thats for sure, but he may be right about some things. It's hard not to be worried when our own political leaders are calling regular citizens who oppose them "evil mongers" as Harry Reid did. Remember he got mad that Bush called Iraq, Iran, and North Korea evil. Apparently only regular Americans who want nothing more than to live their lives in peace qualify as evil to this man. He writes an Op-Ed with the Speaker of the House (who is supposed to represent ALL Americans) chastising people who do not want socialized health care saying is was Un-American to disagree with your government. It was fine and good to disagree when they were out of power, not now that they have it. Nancy Pelosi calls all of those self same hard working regular Americans a bunch of Nazis and that they were carrying swastikas. Never mind the fact that is was an outright lie. James Clyburn the third highest ranking man in the house said the people who don't want health care reform are just racists for opposing Obama. I see, so if I disagree with the President about anything I'm racist? Rep Shelia Jackson Lee said the same thing and also said we were going to get government health care whether we wanted it or not. John Dingel, a very high ranking Democrat Rep from Michigan said those who opposed health care were probably in the Ku Klux Klan. Commentator Bill Maher has openly said people who have publicly opposed UHC should be shot. Lets not forget the hatred and anger directed at the regular blue-collar folks at the tea-party protests over the past six months. These are just normal people angry about government corruption, and out of control spending. Sarah Palin has been publicly vilified for her "Death Panels" comment. While it was a little out in left field, Obama's own health care adviser Ezekiel Emmanuel has flat out said extended care for seniors is not guaranteed because of the high cost and low return since they are not productive citizens anymore (meaning they don't pay high taxes like a younger person). Another Obama adviser Cass Sunstein has written in favor of forced sterilizations and abortions in the name of population control.

 

Add to all of this the fact that American citizens have been buying firearms and ammunition and a rate unprecedented in US history since Obama took office and that membership in fringe groups like the Alaska Independence movement and a those nutty militias are up. The Governor of Texas has a panel studying the legal and economic implications of secession and has openly spoken of it to the press as have a few others in the Texas State House. There are similar think tanks in Louisiana and Oklahoma doing the same things (privately without State sanction but with some popular support). I know political contention is hardly new in the US but it seems worse to me now than anytime in my lifetime.

 

I will admit it. I am afraid we are on a road that might well take us to a very dark place. Rather than slow the descent, Obama seems intent on greasing the rails and Congress is working hard to paint the American people as the new enemy of the government.

[Meshugger]

At some point, we have to stop worrying that someone might actually make money off of providing a service. We have a capitalist system and, no matter how much doom or gloom you guys spout, that system has served the United States well.

 

It's immoral to make a profit off illness and people's fear of death, preying on the sick and downtrodden.

 

J.

 

Seriously though, do you expect doctors and nurses to work for free?

Agreed or anyone else for that matter, societies growing sense of entitlement is getting scary.

 

I could almost bet that it had nothing to do with the nurses or doctors. Rather, it was about having a healthcare insurance policy, based on profit, being immoral.

[Hurlshort]

Well, before you deal with healthcare insurance, you have to fix the legal system as a whole. Without gigantic lawsuits, insurance wouldn't be where it is today.

[Aristes]

I don't see the difference between a doctor making a killing by practicing medicine and an insurer making money by investing in an insurance company. Even in Canada's system, the administrators don't work for free. It's just silly. People making money off of the sick and dying is the very definition of the Health Care profession.

 

By the same logic, drug companies should not make any money for producing drugs to combat AIDS or cancer? The researchers working for those company only have their jobs because people get AIDS and cancer. They might be the noblest folks in the world, but someone must foot the bill.

 

As I've said before, health insurance isn't even the most lucrative business. Walsh talked about the interaction between food products and the economy. Last I heard, most grocery chains make 1 cent on the dollar. They stay in business on volume. Come on, they shouldn't even make that 1%. After all, they're making money off of folks being hungry! How dare they?

 

Krezak said earlier that it was weird reading what Americans had to say about healthcare. I'll turn that around. It astounds me to read what Europeans have to say about these issues.

 

There must be someone who can put patients in touch with doctors to take care of medical problems and that would be the role of insurer. The insurance industry is not inherently evil. They provide a service and should be paid for it. Where there are abuses, and there are abuses in every industry, the guilty folks should be punished.

[Meshugger]

As i said earlier, it has nothing to do with how much the doctor, the nurse or those who manufacture medical equipments and pharma get paid. It is not even about the idea of having a healthcare insurance by itself.

 

It is about generating profit for the sake of profit in healthcare insurance, because it leads to insurance companies maximizing their profits as first priority, therefore immoral.

[Junai]

As I've said before, health insurance isn't even the most lucrative business.

 

The industry spends $ 1.4M a day on lobbying in the current fight against a public option.

Have you seen Bill Moyers interview with Wendell Potter? You won't be disappointed. He's one of the high-ups. Repentance, inside-stuff straight from the horse's mouth.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07312009/watch.html

 

 

J.

[Trenitay]

I just heard about some insurance executive who makes somewhere around $120,000 an hour.

Edited September 14, 2009 by awsomeness

[Gfted1]

I just heard about some insurance executive who makes somewhere around $1,200,000 an hour.

 

 

1 "work year" = 2080 hours

2080 hour per year x 1,200,000 dollars per hour = 2,496,000,000 dollars per year

 

Yeah, I dont think so.

 

EDIT: I see what you did there.

 

1 "work year" = 2080 hours

2080 hours per year x 120,000 per hour = 249,600,000 dollars per year

 

I suppose thats possible, if you're Bill Gates.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Gfted1

[Gorgon]

How about if you only work 1 hour a year.

[Rosbjerg]

The industry spends $ 1.4M a day on lobbying in the current fight against a public option.

Have you seen Bill Moyers interview with Wendell Potter? You won't be disappointed. He's one of the high-ups. Repentance, inside-stuff straight from the horse's mouth.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07312009/watch.html

 

Great interview.. Really interesting, but what is his story (and the tv-stations)? It seems a little too pro-UHC for me to believe they are telling the entire truth.

[Aristes]

The irony is, I've actually been quite ill during this whole time. I woke up at 4am on Thursday with a stomach ache. My stomach had been hurting the week before for a few days, but I didn't think much of it but it's been getting worse/longer over the years. This last time was the clincher. I wake up with my stomach hurting on Thursday and I call my doctor Friday. She had me come in the same day and described my problem. She sent me out with a lab slip for blood work and a prescription. Well, I didn't realize she wanted me to go get that blood work done that day, so I went home and I planned on getting the blook work done this morning, which I did. Meanwhile, last night was the worst night of all. I didn't want to go to the emergency room, so I decided to tough it out. My wife called the doctor's office this morning and my doctor, who is not even in the office today, called me back and talked to me for about a half hour. She didn't even sound angry when she found out that I only did my bloodwork today. Luckily, the lab that did my bloodwork this morning should have the results to her by tomorrow and she'll be able to make more decisions. Meanwhile, she said that I should definitely go to the emergency room if the pain is bad enough to prevent me from sleeping. Let's hope that I keep feeling better. Still hurts, though. Right now, I'm pretty happy with my insurance because, since we don't have freakin' UHC, I need health insurance. Otherwise, everything would be out of pocket. By the way, the idea that my insurer makes money when I'm sick is just dumb. My insurer loses money when I get sick. What I want to make sure is that my insurance company doesn't look at the cost of getting me better and decide that they lose a lot less money if I die. I have no doubt that happens unfortunately. NEVERTHELESS (just thought I'd shout that), my insurance company makes money if I'm alive and well more than in any other state of affairs, right?

 

As far as the health insurance industry making money off of their investment and spending money to lobby in Washington, I have a couple observations. First of all, we can all cite things to put insurance industry people in a bad light. Yeah, they lobby Washington. I wonder who else lobby's washington? I wonder who else contributes to political campaigns? As it seems to me, every industry and even non-industry people like, oh, I dunno, Move-On.org spend an aweful lot of money to be part of the political process. Oh, but some people spend money to grease the wheels because they're the good guys? What a laugh. There have also been several groups who have spent money lobbying congress on this issue. The trial lawyer lobby has once again ensured that no meaningful tort reform will take place in any of the legislation. Hmmm, those shining beacons of altruism, trial lawyers. Nevertheless, in the same way I don't begrudge insurance companies for making money, I don't hold it against the trial lawyers. Even so, if we need healthy oversight over insurance companies, we sure as hell need tort reform as well, and since we actually do have laws regarding insurance companies in place *gasp*, we probably need tort reform more than any other single thing in the health care package. I did watch the Bill Moyers interview with Wendall Potter. I think there's something to be learned from watching the clip, but I also have to observe that Moyers already fell squarely in the UHC camp and I was surprised that PBS uses a Michael Moore film as substantive support for any position. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Michael Moore. He does tend to be on the losing end of a lot of issues, though. You'd figure someone who cheats and plays loose with the facts as much as Michael Moore does would be more effective. *shrug* If the case is for federal regulation, I don't have anything against Potter. Frankly, I think he's courageous. However, let me turn this around. What about people who have Blue Shield? I do. I don't mistake myself in thinking that the execs there give a crap about me. On the other hand, I don't take for granted that nurses, doctors, mechanics, or grocery store clerks give a crap about me either. Nonetheless, my insurance has worked for me very well over the past decades. Moyers shows video of the woman who was dumped by Blue Shield after she was diagnosed with breast cancer and that shows that they're intentionally screwing all their customers? What about my friend who had Blue Shield and received treatments, including experimental treatments, until she finally died (of an opportunistic infection). You might recall me talking about this friend who recently passed away in the "what you did" thread. ...And, I would say, my friend, God rest her soul, was too scared to go to the oncologist for several years. That meant that she got treatment that was far more expensive and ultimately ineffective because of her own bad decisions.

 

The other thing I'd point out is that we have auto-insurance in the United States. Folks have to buy it in the state where I reside. Auto-insurance companies don't make money off of your car accidents any more than health insurers make money off of your illness. Still, both companies exist because of bad stuff that happens. However, even though car insurance companies cover things like accidents, injuries, and deaths, they make a hell of a lot of money. It's not evil to make money.

 

Let me try to see if there's any common ground to be had. Where I can agree with folks is that healthcare should be more efficient. I think obvious abuses of the system on the part of the industry and the consumer should be addressed. Tort reform is absolutely necessary if we're to move the operating prices down. I honestly believe that no one should be barred from health insurance. These are the big ones that spring to mind right now, but throw some other ones out there. Maybe we agree more than we think. You know, Junai, we always seem to be on the other end of the issues, but that doesn't mean we always have to be. I see you as a person who is keenly concerned with social justice. You have strong beliefs. I simply cannot think we don't agree on at least some things.

[taks]

if government did not interfere with business... those lobbies, and the money they spend, would have no reason to exist. everybody is always willing to ignore the obvious it would seem, and oddly enough, that's exactly what those in power want. why? because it gives them more power over our lives.

 

taks

 

edit: i should add, btw, that auto insurance is true insurance, e.g., we don't expect them to pay for our oil changes.

Edited September 14, 2009 by taks

[Gorth]

You don't expect your health insurance to pay for your blood transfusions?

[Gorgon]

The market is all well and good, keeps prices low, makes sure everyone performs to their best etc. In this case though the most cost effective health care ensurer one could imagine is the one that finds the most excuses for denying expensive treatment. PR firms are a lot cheaper than payouts and they do a lot more for a company's reputation than simply conducting business fairly. The market still wins and the shareholders make money, the patients lose though. You pay all this money into the system, and if you ever get a life threatening illness your ensurer might pay, probably will pay, and then again maybe not.

 

It's utterly insane that a majority of Americans prefer it this way.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Gorgon

[Aristes]

I don't think that's it, Gorgon. I think most folks just don't have problems with their insurance and these big cases, such as cancer, don't appear to be the norm. I've known too many people with cancer who have received treatment, and none who have been denied it, to think that I've just been that lucky over the years.

 

Assuming these cases are not the norm, which would highlight why folks who suffer these outrages have such a compelling story, then it leads to complacency. Still, I sure as hell don't like the idea of my insurance company using a technicality to deny me service with the result being that I end up dead. The reason this isn't a big issue for Americans is twofold as I see it:

 

1) Despite the high profile cases, most folks have received thorough and expeditious care

 

and

 

2) Most people don't get cancer, let alone rarer diseases that literally bankrupt some families in the Unites States.

 

My take is simple, we can't dramatically change our system because some aspects of it are very well politically protected, either by industry or consumer groups (old folks).

[Gorgon]

Every other kind of ensurer has a section dedicated to finding reasons not to pay, and we are not just talking about fraud, any reason not to pay. It couldn't surprise anyone if health ensurers were exactly the same. Like their counterparts in other areas of the industry they are good at media management, and not every case has all the right elements to sell newspapers and get attention.

 

The bottom line for these companies are in direct conflict with the best (medical) interests of their claimants. This is not really an area where you want 'market forces' to do their thing and magically improve everything. Health care needs responsible and accountable management, not just to make a profit for the ensurers.