CIA torture directives

[Walsingham]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...cess-memos.html

 

I can't really express my revulsion on learning that the Bush administartion condoned the use of torture techniques. Condoned them, and it seems, still thinks they were OK. I've explained at length on this forum why torture is the intelligence gathering choice of fools and psychos, and after writing to my MP about this issue just now, I can't be bothered to repeat myself. I realise that Obama would not have been able to release the files without promising immunity from prosecution to key players, but at the same time, I do feel that the top brass ought to be put on trial.

 

This is not simply a question of justice. Having a former VP defend torture merely perpetuates the lie that torture is unpleasant but effective. It is not effective in itself, and rules out the use of techniques like turning agents, which are genuinely effective. The fact that the administration must have ordered the policy over the heads of the generations of professionals who know and accept this is further evidence that Bush/Cheney have grossly mismanaged a vital enterprise.

[Meshugger]

Don't you guys find it interesting that Cheney's response isn't one of guilt? Like torture not being a final and desperat option by stressed men in the military? Instead, he celibrates it as an institutional method for conducting effective interrogations.

 

Most soldiers or people in the intelligence know that torture is wrong even if it may happen that they are conducting it themselves, as they are aware that this causes severe physical and mental pain upon infliction. They don't boast about it, and they sure aren't proud of it, but they do it because of orders and of stress. Cheney however, is viewing it from a completely different perspective. It's like he is completely devoid of any understanding that torture is inheritly wrong to begin with, and this is the same guy that was co-voted into office on a platform that represented "strong, moral values". Incredible.

[Maria Caliban]

Yeah, I might indulge in a bit of stroke the devil if torture worked, but it doesn't.

[Humodour]

Cheney is pure revulsion. I feel sympathy/empathy for Bush at times, but Cheney is constructed from elementary particles of vileness.

[Arkan]

If they had to waterboard that guy over 180 times, how effective can it be?

[Wrath of Dagon]

I guess all of you guys know exactly what information CIA got and exactly how they got it. I must say I'm very impressed and flattered to be in such elevated company.

[Moose]

If they had to waterboard that guy over 180 times, how effective can it be?

 

They probably didn't have to.

[Trenitay]

I guess all of you guys know exactly what information CIA got and exactly how they got it. I must say I'm very impressed and flattered to be in such elevated company.

 

Does it really matter. How would you like it if I did the same to you so I could know something?

[Hurlshort]

Please, how else is Jack Bauer going to save the world?

[Wrath of Dagon]

I guess all of you guys know exactly what information CIA got and exactly how they got it. I must say I'm very impressed and flattered to be in such elevated company.

 

Does it really matter. How would you like it if I did the same to you so I could know something?

The difference is I'm not a terrorist. If a terrorist ever captures you, it won't matter how nice you were to them.

[taks]

Don't you guys find it interesting that Cheney's response isn't one of guilt? Like torture not being a final and desperat option by stressed men in the military? Instead, he celibrates it as an institutional method for conducting effective interrogations.

no, i don't simply because, contrary to popular opinion, this is probably what's really been going on for a very long time with nearly every country in the world. indeed, the methods employed by the "civilized" countries pale in comparison to those of the third world.

 

i'm curious how people know such methods don't work? the movies? the journos that talk about it on tv? former agents?

 

taks

[Gorgon]

The threat of torture and being 'disappeared' is probably very effective in ensuring cooperation.

 

Actually pealing off nails and electrocuting genitals, I don't believe that gets you anywhere other than getting the subject to admit to whatever you want, being a witch, communist, al qaeda cell leader, part of the martian invasion recon force.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The point of coercive interrogation is to break the subject psychologically, so he becomes willing to cooperate. It's a part of a complex process, it's not like they just inflict pain and the terrorist starts talking. In fact inflicting pain was not allowed according to the released memos.

[Humodour]

How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture.

[taks]

How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture.

how did i guess that you would be unable to actually understand my comment.

 

you're simply a moron, krezack. show me where i supported torture, krezack. really, show me. stop acting like the ideological fool that you are and try to think rationally for a change.

 

taks

Edited April 21, 2009 by taks

[Walsingham]

If information followed a correlation with pain, then how come sadistic and brutal regimes have successful insurgencies? The fact is it's balls. You can break someone using torture, but there's no intelligence purpose for doing so.

 

Dagon, if you can find me a single professional who claims torture gave them any useful information by comparison with what they get from interview, I'll do some sort of dance to honour your research skills.

[taks]

Dagon, if you can find me a single professional who claims torture gave them any useful information by comparison with what they get from interview, I'll do some sort of dance to honour your research skills.

unfortunately, i think this is a strawman, walsingham. most "professionals" that have been involved in torture are not allowed to talk about it, ever. just because a clearance expires does not mean whomever granted it no longer holds your balls over the fire for violating it. this is a basic premise of any act or work done that is otherwise classified. whistle blowers in this regard are few and far between because they signed on the dotted line and have little legal recourse.

 

taks

 

edit: i should add, nearly every expose i've ever read about classified work is either a lie, or intentionally obfuscated to make it seem legit, while it is really not. the former is written by people that probably knew someone that was cleared and figured they knew enough themselves to write about it, and the latter is written by people that were involved, but know not to cross the line for fear of spending their remaining years afraid of bending over for the soap. in any case, at best, most have only cursory knowledge for a variety of reasons, the least of which is the massive amount of compartmentalization that goes on.

Edited April 21, 2009 by taks

[Wrath of Dagon]

How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture.

Because I disagree with most of your leftist views? And again, by Justice Departments legal interpretation, what was allowed did not meet the definition of torture, if you read the memos you'll see they were very careful to draw a line between what does and does not constitute torture, since torture is illegal under US law. Having said that, if they catch a guy who has info on a planned nuclear attack, I want them to use whatever means necessary, legal or not.

[Humodour]

How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture.

Because I disagree with most of your leftist views?

 

Promoting human rights makes you a lefty now?

[Wrath of Dagon]

If information followed a correlation with pain, then how come sadistic and brutal regimes have successful insurgencies? The fact is it's balls. You can break someone using torture, but there's no intelligence purpose for doing so.

 

Dagon, if you can find me a single professional who claims torture gave them any useful information by comparison with what they get from interview, I'll do some sort of dance to honour your research skills.

If you get no useful info from CIA's interrogation methods, they wouldn't have asked the Justice Department to authorize them, why would they waste their time and create political problems for something that doesn't work?

 

How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture.

Because I disagree with most of your leftist views?

 

Promoting human rights makes you a lefty now?

Promoting terrorist rights. These aren't political dissidents. Edited April 21, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Hurlshort]

Promoting terrorists rights? Do you work at Fox News?

 

You've really convinced yourself that terrorists (and in some cases, suspected terrorists) aren't human beings, haven't you?

[Wrath of Dagon]

That's right, they're rabid dogs, and need to be dealt with accordingly.

 

And btw, speaking of intelligence professionals:

Hayden also said half of the government

[Meshugger]

Don't you guys find it interesting that Cheney's response isn't one of guilt? Like torture not being a final and desperat option by stressed men in the military? Instead, he celibrates it as an institutional method for conducting effective interrogations.

no, i don't simply because, contrary to popular opinion, this is probably what's really been going on for a very long time with nearly every country in the world. indeed, the methods employed by the "civilized" countries pale in comparison to those of the third world.

 

i'm curious how people know such methods don't work? the movies? the journos that talk about it on tv? former agents?

 

taks

 

At least there should be a policy by the government that any use of torture should be banned, imo. But sure, i can almost bet that torture in civilized countries was previously conducted, sometimes, by one or two intelligence-agents, in an addonded shack somewhere, with the other guys looking the other way. However, it should be never accepted as a sound interrogation policy, practiced and studied for every joe schmo military-man, with the friendly acceptance of the judicial branch.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Meshugger

[Meshugger]

That's right, they're rabid dogs, and need to be dealt with accordingly.

 

And btw, speaking of intelligence professionals:

Hayden also said half of the government

[Rostere]

Actually pealing off nails and electrocuting genitals, I don't believe that gets you anywhere other than getting the subject to admit to whatever you want, being a witch, communist, al qaeda cell leader, part of the martian invasion recon force.

 

Then maybe that is the point of the whole thing.