Walsingham Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...cess-memos.html I can't really express my revulsion on learning that the Bush administartion condoned the use of torture techniques. Condoned them, and it seems, still thinks they were OK. I've explained at length on this forum why torture is the intelligence gathering choice of fools and psychos, and after writing to my MP about this issue just now, I can't be bothered to repeat myself. I realise that Obama would not have been able to release the files without promising immunity from prosecution to key players, but at the same time, I do feel that the top brass ought to be put on trial. This is not simply a question of justice. Having a former VP defend torture merely perpetuates the lie that torture is unpleasant but effective. It is not effective in itself, and rules out the use of techniques like turning agents, which are genuinely effective. The fact that the administration must have ordered the policy over the heads of the generations of professionals who know and accept this is further evidence that Bush/Cheney have grossly mismanaged a vital enterprise. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Don't you guys find it interesting that Cheney's response isn't one of guilt? Like torture not being a final and desperat option by stressed men in the military? Instead, he celibrates it as an institutional method for conducting effective interrogations. Most soldiers or people in the intelligence know that torture is wrong even if it may happen that they are conducting it themselves, as they are aware that this causes severe physical and mental pain upon infliction. They don't boast about it, and they sure aren't proud of it, but they do it because of orders and of stress. Cheney however, is viewing it from a completely different perspective. It's like he is completely devoid of any understanding that torture is inheritly wrong to begin with, and this is the same guy that was co-voted into office on a platform that represented "strong, moral values". Incredible. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Yeah, I might indulge in a bit of stroke the devil if torture worked, but it doesn't. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Cheney is pure revulsion. I feel sympathy/empathy for Bush at times, but Cheney is constructed from elementary particles of vileness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 If they had to waterboard that guy over 180 times, how effective can it be? "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I guess all of you guys know exactly what information CIA got and exactly how they got it. I must say I'm very impressed and flattered to be in such elevated company. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 If they had to waterboard that guy over 180 times, how effective can it be? They probably didn't have to. There are none that are right, only strong of opinion. There are none that are wrong, only ignorant of facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenitay Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I guess all of you guys know exactly what information CIA got and exactly how they got it. I must say I'm very impressed and flattered to be in such elevated company. Does it really matter. How would you like it if I did the same to you so I could know something? Hey now, my mother is huge and don't you forget it. The drunk can't even get off the couch to make herself a vodka drenched sandwich. Octopus suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Please, how else is Jack Bauer going to save the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I guess all of you guys know exactly what information CIA got and exactly how they got it. I must say I'm very impressed and flattered to be in such elevated company. Does it really matter. How would you like it if I did the same to you so I could know something? The difference is I'm not a terrorist. If a terrorist ever captures you, it won't matter how nice you were to them. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Don't you guys find it interesting that Cheney's response isn't one of guilt? Like torture not being a final and desperat option by stressed men in the military? Instead, he celibrates it as an institutional method for conducting effective interrogations. no, i don't simply because, contrary to popular opinion, this is probably what's really been going on for a very long time with nearly every country in the world. indeed, the methods employed by the "civilized" countries pale in comparison to those of the third world. i'm curious how people know such methods don't work? the movies? the journos that talk about it on tv? former agents? taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 The threat of torture and being 'disappeared' is probably very effective in ensuring cooperation. Actually pealing off nails and electrocuting genitals, I don't believe that gets you anywhere other than getting the subject to admit to whatever you want, being a witch, communist, al qaeda cell leader, part of the martian invasion recon force. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 The point of coercive interrogation is to break the subject psychologically, so he becomes willing to cooperate. It's a part of a complex process, it's not like they just inflict pain and the terrorist starts talking. In fact inflicting pain was not allowed according to the released memos. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture. how did i guess that you would be unable to actually understand my comment. you're simply a moron, krezack. show me where i supported torture, krezack. really, show me. stop acting like the ideological fool that you are and try to think rationally for a change. taks Edited April 21, 2009 by taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted April 21, 2009 Author Share Posted April 21, 2009 If information followed a correlation with pain, then how come sadistic and brutal regimes have successful insurgencies? The fact is it's balls. You can break someone using torture, but there's no intelligence purpose for doing so. Dagon, if you can find me a single professional who claims torture gave them any useful information by comparison with what they get from interview, I'll do some sort of dance to honour your research skills. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) Dagon, if you can find me a single professional who claims torture gave them any useful information by comparison with what they get from interview, I'll do some sort of dance to honour your research skills. unfortunately, i think this is a strawman, walsingham. most "professionals" that have been involved in torture are not allowed to talk about it, ever. just because a clearance expires does not mean whomever granted it no longer holds your balls over the fire for violating it. this is a basic premise of any act or work done that is otherwise classified. whistle blowers in this regard are few and far between because they signed on the dotted line and have little legal recourse. taks edit: i should add, nearly every expose i've ever read about classified work is either a lie, or intentionally obfuscated to make it seem legit, while it is really not. the former is written by people that probably knew someone that was cleared and figured they knew enough themselves to write about it, and the latter is written by people that were involved, but know not to cross the line for fear of spending their remaining years afraid of bending over for the soap. in any case, at best, most have only cursory knowledge for a variety of reasons, the least of which is the massive amount of compartmentalization that goes on. Edited April 21, 2009 by taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture. Because I disagree with most of your leftist views? And again, by Justice Departments legal interpretation, what was allowed did not meet the definition of torture, if you read the memos you'll see they were very careful to draw a line between what does and does not constitute torture, since torture is illegal under US law. Having said that, if they catch a guy who has info on a planned nuclear attack, I want them to use whatever means necessary, legal or not. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture. Because I disagree with most of your leftist views? Promoting human rights makes you a lefty now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) If information followed a correlation with pain, then how come sadistic and brutal regimes have successful insurgencies? The fact is it's balls. You can break someone using torture, but there's no intelligence purpose for doing so. Dagon, if you can find me a single professional who claims torture gave them any useful information by comparison with what they get from interview, I'll do some sort of dance to honour your research skills. If you get no useful info from CIA's interrogation methods, they wouldn't have asked the Justice Department to authorize them, why would they waste their time and create political problems for something that doesn't work? How did I guess Wrath of Dagon and taks would come and defend torture. Because I disagree with most of your leftist views? Promoting human rights makes you a lefty now? Promoting terrorist rights. These aren't political dissidents. Edited April 21, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Promoting terrorists rights? Do you work at Fox News? You've really convinced yourself that terrorists (and in some cases, suspected terrorists) aren't human beings, haven't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 That's right, they're rabid dogs, and need to be dealt with accordingly. And btw, speaking of intelligence professionals: Hayden also said half of the government "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) Don't you guys find it interesting that Cheney's response isn't one of guilt? Like torture not being a final and desperat option by stressed men in the military? Instead, he celibrates it as an institutional method for conducting effective interrogations. no, i don't simply because, contrary to popular opinion, this is probably what's really been going on for a very long time with nearly every country in the world. indeed, the methods employed by the "civilized" countries pale in comparison to those of the third world. i'm curious how people know such methods don't work? the movies? the journos that talk about it on tv? former agents? taks At least there should be a policy by the government that any use of torture should be banned, imo. But sure, i can almost bet that torture in civilized countries was previously conducted, sometimes, by one or two intelligence-agents, in an addonded shack somewhere, with the other guys looking the other way. However, it should be never accepted as a sound interrogation policy, practiced and studied for every joe schmo military-man, with the friendly acceptance of the judicial branch. Edited April 21, 2009 by Meshugger "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 That's right, they're rabid dogs, and need to be dealt with accordingly. And btw, speaking of intelligence professionals: Hayden also said half of the government "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rostere Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Actually pealing off nails and electrocuting genitals, I don't believe that gets you anywhere other than getting the subject to admit to whatever you want, being a witch, communist, al qaeda cell leader, part of the martian invasion recon force. Then maybe that is the point of the whole thing. "Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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