Dragon Age

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I'm pretty sure the king is supposed to be a douchebag.

[Tigranes]

Seriously, if you hate the idea of parting with that diamond tiara, you don

[Bos_hybrid]

I don't get the LOTR comparisons, to me it looks like NW2 and Witcher etc, basic fantasy.

 

Now if people said it looks like everyother fantasy game I would agree, just not seeing a specific LOTR ripoff. But if you think all fantasy looks like LOTR then I could see your point, but would disagree.

 

If you look at gift giving as an isolated feature, yeah, you can simply ignore it and it shouldn't really affect your game. But what I'm saying is that the new feature of gift giving, combined with what they did in Mass Effect, what they're doing with romances, cinematic cutscenes, combat bonuses and so forth, is a general design direction towards creating archetypical characters who tattle soap-drama lines about everything you do that you are meant to cater for through a bunch of ankle-deep mechanisms. It's all knitted together, and it's both a symptom and part of the way Bio is designing these things now and spending their time on.

 

If thats the worst feature of a game, then IMO we've got a decent game.(wonder if we can gift severed heads....) I'm more suprised people haven't been bitching about the animation of this game, on BIO boards thats the 'big' thing. As for the soap lines part, you do realize how successful shows like B&B and Young & the Restless are? You and I might not think they're great but there is a lot more people that think they are. You can say you don't like/enjoy the romance mechanic, but its not a flaw, no more so then a FPS having multiplayer or being in First person.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Bos_hybrid

[Tigranes]

Not all fantasy looks like LOTR, no. DA does its best though, with its language, camera, art direction, etc.

 

If thats the worst feature of a game, then IMO we've got a decent game.(wonder if we can gift severed heads....) I'm more suprised people haven't been bitching about the animation of this game, on BIO boards thats the 'big' thing. As for the soap lines part, you do realize how successful shows like B&B and Young & the Restless are? You and I might not think they're great but there is a lot more people that think they are. You can say you don't like/enjoy the romance mechanic, but its not a flaw, no more so then a FPS having multiplayer or being in First person.

 

Relativity is not always the answer. Putting things in just because they are popular or commercially successful in other theatres isn't a blanket rule either. It's logically blind to assert thus. Hell why don't we put in a horse chase scene in DA? People liked car chases. And rock music. And porn. You need to build your game around elements and experiences that many people will enjoy, to be sure, but you also need to be conscious about how each element you introduce links with other elements, and what kind of experience as a whole that will produce in your game.

 

Ironically, Bio is very aware of this and is doing it quite superbly. They have taken a very deliberate, consistent and well-executed turn towards 'cinematic' experiences and integrated their cutscenes, characters, dialogue, story, voice acting, music and combat to create what is essentially a kitsch version of a blockbuster (yes, I know). The particular way in which they seem to be expanding on NPC interaction with DA is just a part of that. My problem is that I wholeheartedly disagree with that direction; it is not conducive for challenging games, it is not conducive for fun gamey games, it is not conducive for 'artsy' games and in fact it is a set of mechanisms that is by nature designed to deliver immediate, indulgent satisfactions of 'epic' and 'cool'. That is the kind of entertainment the Bio Cinematic model offers. You look at your decked out character walking down a cutscene and feel cool. You watch the dialogue choices and gift options build up to 'tasteful' sex scenes. Combat and actually running around doing things simply builds you up towards cutscenes where you watch 'epic' and 'cool' consequences to how you've performed. That stuff has always been in games and role-playing and I like that, but now it is the heart of the game.

 

This is obviously not extrapolated from the gift-giving feature on its own. To think of it in terms of "well if people like it then i guess its good to go" and "one feature, meh, who cares" is quite narrow. You can respond that you like the direction Bio is going in and think it is good for X reasons, or you don't think the feature is indicative of or contributes to the kind of direction I talked about, and that's fine - that's the level on which debate can occur and opinions can diverge.

 

Oh, and I've given up on animations, really. I have yet to see really good animations from any big RPG since we got into 3D. If only they would stop skating around or clipping everywhere (don't see too much of the latter in DA).

[Maria Caliban]

If thats the worst feature of a game, then IMO we've got a decent game.(wonder if we can gift severed heads....)

 

When they showed off the demo at NYC, one of the posters said she gave Alister a decaying arm. He didn't seem to like it.

[Monte Carlo]

I'm not being facetious when I say that most hardcore Bio fans simply want romances and cutscenes. Especially romances. They want a sort of Sims-Tamagotchi hybrid with elves and stuff. And I strongly suspect they'll get it, but I agree it would be even more awesomely strange set to the wordsmithery of the mighty Manowar.

 

Cheers

MC

[Meshugger]

Come on, what kind of warrior wouldn't be riled up by that kind of speech? Instead, we have to suffer from another oxfordian englishman, talking as gay and LOTR-esque as possible.

 

If it makes you feel better, he dies soon after.

I hope so as well.

 

Good. Hopefully his death will involve a wooden spoon.

 

Gifts and as Monte Carlo described it, elven-tamagochi relationships, should be treated as a minor annoyance. If you approach it for the lulz, then it becomes less than an issue. Exhibit A) Collargrabbing in ME: Nothing to be serious about.

 

Games like Heavy Rain and alike can be enjoyed in a non-lulzy fashion, but Bioware is a whole different package.

[Purkake]

Will it have the combat dialog window? It won't be any fun when I can't see the rolls, how do I know the game isn't cheating?

 

Also, what kind of a system are they using? A d20-style?

[Bos_hybrid]

Not all fantasy looks like LOTR, no. DA does its best though, with its language, camera, art direction, etc.

 

Language? You are kidding right? You telling me, most fantasy games don't sound like DA:O....

 

Don't know how camera enters into it, since LOTR was a movie(haven't played any of the games).....

 

Art direction reminds me of Witcher, NWN2 etc, in other words fantasy, I've haven't seen anything that makes me think LOTR ripoff.

 

Relativity is not always the answer. Putting things in just because they are popular or commercially successful in other theatres isn't a blanket rule either. It's logically blind to assert thus. Hell why don't we put in a horse chase scene in DA? People liked car chases. And rock music. And porn. You need to build your game around elements and experiences that many people will enjoy, to be sure, but you also need to be conscious about how each element you introduce links with other elements, and what kind of experience as a whole that will produce in your game.

 

Ironically, Bio is very aware of this and is doing it quite superbly. They have taken a very deliberate, consistent and well-executed turn towards 'cinematic' experiences and integrated their cutscenes, characters, dialogue, story, voice acting, music and combat to create what is essentially a kitsch version of a blockbuster (yes, I know). The particular way in which they seem to be expanding on NPC interaction with DA is just a part of that. My problem is that I wholeheartedly disagree with that direction; it is not conducive for challenging games, it is not conducive for fun gamey games, it is not conducive for 'artsy' games and in fact it is a set of mechanisms that is by nature designed to deliver immediate, indulgent satisfactions of 'epic' and 'cool'. That is the kind of entertainment the Bio Cinematic model offers. You look at your decked out character walking down a cutscene and feel cool. You watch the dialogue choices and gift options build up to 'tasteful' sex scenes. Combat and actually running around doing things simply builds you up towards cutscenes where you watch 'epic' and 'cool' consequences to how you've performed. That stuff has always been in games and role-playing and I like that, but now it is the heart of the game.

 

This is obviously not extrapolated from the gift-giving feature on its own. To think of it in terms of "well if people like it then i guess its good to go" and "one feature, meh, who cares" is quite narrow. You can respond that you like the direction Bio is going in and think it is good for X reasons, or you don't think the feature is indicative of or contributes to the kind of direction I talked about, and that's fine - that's the level on which debate can occur and opinions can diverge.

 

I don't know if said features are good or bad, I haven't played DA:O.

 

I don't think BIO thought, "hmmm, gift giving is super popular with people lets put it in" I believe they think that it adds another layer to character interaction, that their core fans, the ones that have watched DA:O for the 5 yrs it been in development will enjoy. You just have to go on DA boards and read, 1000+ romance/NPC threads vs 10 combat threads. You might not enjoy the romance aspect of this game, that does not make it 'crap'or'stupid', it makes it an aspect of this game you do not like, something that should be pointed out though, is you are not required to take part in it, you don't have to talk to you team/group members, if interacting with them annoys you. Apparently you can even solo it if that was your hearts desire, you might get your ass kicked a lot though.

 

As for NPC interaction/Cinematic presentation I will disagree, character interaction is what I enjoy most, I do find it fun, I also feel that a well presented story, with well written and interesting characters, is more 'artsy' and enjoyable then a game focused on combat. See differnet tastes.

 

Do I prefer BIOs latest offering compared to there past, I think you know the answer, but in the end its just an opinion, one of millions. But remember I play BIOs games for story, characters and in game choices, not its combat. For someone like you(I'm assuming here) combat is a big part perhaps the biggest part of an RPG, I can see how a game might be less enjoyable if its too easy.

 

Oh, and I've given up on animations, really. I have yet to see really good animations from any big RPG since we got into 3D. If only they would stop skating around or clipping everywhere (don't see too much of the latter in DA).

 

Do I think DA:O has the 'bestest of best' animation no, is it serviceable yes, could it be improved yes.

 

 

If thats the worst feature of a game, then IMO we've got a decent game.(wonder if we can gift severed heads....)

 

When they showed off the demo at NYC, one of the posters said she gave Alister a decaying arm. He didn't seem to like it.

 

I would be worried if he did. The dog might of enjoyed it though....

[Slowtrain]

I don't know.

 

No matter how much I want a good crpg, I find it hard to get excited about one that appears to be putting such emphasis on romances and cutscenes.

 

It jutst feels like this is a game that is really aimed at adolescents. Especially male ones in a Twilight for gamers sorta way.

 

Isn't the average age of gamers now in the late 30s or something? Shouldn't games be trying to present games that go beynd adolescent wish fulfillment of being a barrel-chested hero with lots of babes?

 

 

I'm all for character interaction and stuff, but I don't see how that neccessarily means romances.

 

Doeesn't necessarily mean the game wil be not worth playing. The Witcher has that stupid and completely unneccessary nudie card thing happening and was still a decent game.

 

Just doesn't get me excited, atm. So far not really a mindset that I feel any real connection to.

[Pidesco]

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Bioware is now the Squaresoft of the west.

[Tigranes]

Language? You are kidding right? You telling me, most fantasy games don't sound like DA:O....

 

Don't know how camera enters into it, since LOTR was a movie(haven't played any of the games).....

 

Art direction reminds me of Witcher, NWN2 etc, in other words fantasy, I've haven't seen anything that makes me think LOTR ripoff.

 

I already mentioned in this thread about the specific phrases they use. The camera refers to cinematic cutscenes camera work, obviously (camera movement, mise en scene, framing, etc). DA's art direction can only look like the Witcher's if you take the broadest of brushes.

 

As for the rest... we're not really discussing this on the same level. I mean that in a literal rather than condescending manner. Simply put... I'm saying that it's not a narrow and simplistic judgment of 'everyone has different tastes' and 'whatever people like is great'. I'm talking about the fact that Bioware are going down a certain direction in the kind of holistic experience they provide (not "combat game" vs "character development game"... or did you think I was opposed to character development?).

 

One day I will find better ways to communicate the framework from which I am looking at things.

 

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Bioware is now the Squaresoft of the west.

 

Probably.

[Gfted1]

Will it have the combat dialog window? It won't be any fun when I can't see the rolls, how do I know the game isn't cheating?

 

 

Nope. See fifth and sixth posts.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Gfted1

[Purkake]

Will it have the combat dialog window? It won't be any fun when I can't see the rolls, how do I know the game isn't cheating?

 

 

Nope. See fifth and sixth posts.

 

This fills me with sadness. Half the fun was learning how the system worked and then trying to min/max the hell out of it

[Gfted1]

April 1st spoof video.

 

Link to Bio thread

Edited April 1, 2009 by Gfted1

[Maria Caliban]

Will it have the combat dialog window? It won't be any fun when I can't see the rolls, how do I know the game isn't cheating?

 

Also, what kind of a system are they using? A d20-style?

 

It won't have a combat window. Damage is displayed as floating text (unless you turn it off). When asked why, Gerog said it was because there was too much information. The flame hurricane spell, for instance, could do damage to 15 different fighters at once at the same time and then damage over time while melee was going on, leading to a 'torrent of data.'

 

I don't know what you mean by cheating. Difficulty can be adjusted on-the-fly so it doesn't effect things like mob health, but it does change the friendly fire value and how the AI processes threat.

 

The system isn't as variable as d20, and there are no rounds. An attack is based on speed so a dagger might hit every 3 seconds, a two-hander every 6. Different armors have different penetration values against different weapon types. Spells have a mana cost and casting and cool down time. There are flanking bonuses, attack-from-stealth bonuses, etc.

 

Does that answer your questions?

[Maria Caliban]

I don't know.

 

No matter how much I want a good crpg, I find it hard to get excited about one that appears to be putting such emphasis on romances and cutscenes.

 

It jutst feels like this is a game that is really aimed at adolescents. Especially male ones in a Twilight for gamers sorta way.

 

Isn't the average age of gamers now in the late 30s or something? Shouldn't games be trying to present games that go beynd adolescent wish fulfillment of being a barrel-chested hero with lots of babes?

 

The romance threads are the longest lasting and most popular threads on the BioWare board. I've counted 16 of them since February, and 80% of the posters are female. The majority of the posters are also 20 or older.

 

Women like romance. Adolecent guys? Not so much. Guys (and some girls) like half-naked women, but they don't form the bulk of the 'we want romance!' crowd.

[Tigranes]

It won't have a combat window. Damage is displayed as floating text (unless you turn it off). When asked why, Gerog said it was because there was too much information. The flame hurricane spell, for instance, could do damage to 15 different fighters at once at the same time and then damage over time while melee was going on, leading to a 'torrent of data

 

Logical failure. Every IE game had exactly the same thing happen and the dialogue box was great. Bio just want to make the UI more "next-gen" and "invisible", so why don't they come out and say so? You could easily have +10 allied and +10 enemy creatures in BG2/TOB with multiple status effects (and their corresponding save rolls) and area of effect spells and such going off.

 

Damage values and whatever floating up above your head is much more obstructive yet less informative.

[Maria Caliban]

Logical failure. Every IE game had exactly the same thing happen and the dialogue box was great. Bio just want to make the UI more "next-gen" and "invisible", so why don't they come out and say so? You could easily have +10 allied and +10 enemy creatures in BG2/TOB with multiple status effects (and their corresponding save rolls) and area of effect spells and such going off.

 

Damage values and whatever floating up above your head is much more obstructive yet less informative.

 

I don't recall a single IE game where one spell could hit 15 people at once. I'm playing BG right now, and the largest group I've fought against is 7 people.

[Tigranes]

They mostly controlled the size of mobs at 5-10 enemies, but if you ever lured more than one mob, or if your enemies summoned creatures, you can get pretty close; esp. with your own summons and friendly fire. DA might end up fielding slightly bigger mobs than BG (we haven't really seen any yet), but dialogue boxes are still better in both functionality and 'preventing torrent of data' than incessant floating texts.

[Purkake]

Will it have the combat dialog window? It won't be any fun when I can't see the rolls, how do I know the game isn't cheating?

 

Also, what kind of a system are they using? A d20-style?

 

It won't have a combat window. Damage is displayed as floating text (unless you turn it off). When asked why, Gerog said it was because there was too much information. The flame hurricane spell, for instance, could do damage to 15 different fighters at once at the same time and then damage over time while melee was going on, leading to a 'torrent of data.'

 

I don't know what you mean by cheating. Difficulty can be adjusted on-the-fly so it doesn't effect things like mob health, but it does change the friendly fire value and how the AI processes threat.

 

The system isn't as variable as d20, and there are no rounds. An attack is based on speed so a dagger might hit every 3 seconds, a two-hander every 6. Different armors have different penetration values against different weapon types. Spells have a mana cost and casting and cool down time. There are flanking bonuses, attack-from-stealth bonuses, etc.

 

Does that answer your questions?

 

By cheating I meant used the same rules on you as on the monsters. I was also half-joking.

 

I'm sure most people don't want the huge combat window hanging there, but since they probably have a console for development purposes anyway, it wouldn't hurt them to put it in as an option. I still don't understand how 2e saving throws work, but watching everyone roll them was great.

 

Having romances is great and all, but it gets a bit creepy looking at all the BG2 mods and the threads. What's even weirder is that the typical Bioware romance isn't good by any definition of the word, it just... is

Edited April 2, 2009 by Purkake

[Volourn]

"What's even weirder is that the typical Bioware romance isn't good by any definition of the word,"

 

One thing to have an opinion and voice dislike; it's another to make it sound like 'fact'. What does 'any defintion of the word' mean anything. You may think BIo romances aren't 'good'; but that doesn't make it true.

 

Obviously, their romances are good enough to have supporters of them. Obviously, someone's defintion of good differsd from yours which proves your above sentence is obviously false. And, embarassingly so.

 

But, hey, I guess I shoudl state that Oblivion isn't good either 'by any defintion of the word'.

 

R00fles!

 

P.S. Dragon Age will be awesome, and will be a vatsly superior games than either BG. By any defintion of the word, btw.

[Tigranes]

DA > *

[Deadly_Nightshade]

But, hey, I guess I shoudl state that Oblivion isn't good either 'by any defintion of the word'.

 

Because it's not. At least when we're talking about the un-modded version...

[Purkake]

"What's even weirder is that the typical Bioware romance isn't good by any definition of the word,"

 

One thing to have an opinion and voice dislike; it's another to make it sound like 'fact'. What does 'any defintion of the word' mean anything. You may think BIo romances aren't 'good'; but that doesn't make it true.

 

Obviously, their romances are good enough to have supporters of them. Obviously, someone's defintion of good differsd from yours which proves your above sentence is obviously false. And, embarassingly so.

 

But, hey, I guess I shoudl state that Oblivion isn't good either 'by any defintion of the word'.

 

R00fles!

 

P.S. Dragon Age will be awesome, and will be a vatsly superior games than either BG. By any defintion of the word, btw.

 

What I meant was that usually your choice is either Bioware romance or no romance.