Recent Isareli military action in Gaza

[Yuusha]

@Volourn:

 

Hamas: We want peace. We will cease firing rockets into Israeli territory. In return we demand that you halt all assassinations/kidnapping and lift the blockade so that we can have access to medical supplies and other basic necessities.

 

Isreal: ok.

 

Both & UN: *negotiate a ceasefire treaty*

 

Most of the World: YAY!!!

 

*few months passed the Israeli tightened its blockade on Gaza instead of lifting it, cutting off their water supply, electricity and intercepting the much needed humanitarian aid. Slowly choking the life out of the residents of Gaza.*

 

Hamas: This is not what we

[Brdavs]

Yet another generation growing up knowing nothing but occupation, state terror and missery.

Sources state that 75% of population of Gaza is malnurished, that 46% of their children have acute anemia. 1/5 of them are said to have stunted growth issue. Widespread hearing disorders from military jet sonic booms. Iron deficiency. Mental disorders culmunating in the fact that half of the children under 12 allegedly have "no will to live". Zero prospect of a decent life for 1.5mil people etc. etc. And somehow we will find it in ourselves the capacity to be "surprised & outraged" when one of these children in 10 years time decides to blow himself up in a cafe killin as many as he possibly can via a terrorist act: age old tool of the opressed and those without the capacity to fight back in any other meaningfull way.

 

The real kick in the head is that escallations have a disturbing tendency to pick up around the time of Israeli elections. Everytime the jewish state has an election the palestinians end up paying for it via a show of force and determination. In the last 3 election the coinciding violence has helped progressivly more hardline politicians sieze power. This round is said to be helping the current defence&foreign ministers. Mustafa Barguti put it nicely recently .Israeli politicians shed blood for the needs of their campaigns. On the other hand palestinians are paying for their ellections aswell. Cos they did not vote correctly. Despite all the funding, bribes, facorizing and rule bending in favor of the immensly corrupt and inefficient Fatah (who many regard as collaborants) Hamas still managed to do a landslide win, not due to koran chants of killing infidels but due no small part to their social and humanitarian efforts in the gods forsaken Gaza. Ever since those elections in 05 everything that has happened has happened because Israel and certain international community wish to brake and disqualify hamas as a legitimate representative, in favor of the bend over & defeated Fatah, naturally. Democracy my bumm. The main "problem" is that Hamas has not given up their fight against the occupation and that it, in a very asymetrical fight, uses all means available to it.

 

"Nobody can reject or condemn the revolt of a people that has been suffering under military occupation for 45(now 62) years against occupation force." General Shlomo Gazit, former chief of Israeli military intelligence, in 1993

 

Violence that affects palestinian children today will afect israeli children tomorrow. The systematic humilliation, infliction of pain, use of terror and hunger to brake their will, disproportionate violence coupled with collective punishment and blatand double standards&disregard for any and all internationall norms/law breed the same ruthless answer. 3 out of 4 palestinian children in gaza are said to want to be martyrs. Some would say Israel writes its own judgment.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Brdavs

[Volourn]

Yup, more justification given for Hamas targeting innocent Isreal civilians. Wonderful. Even a tossed in to bash a group like Fatah because they're actually willing to truly negotiate by blackmarking them as 'appeasers' and 'betrayers'. Even though they're anything but.

 

 

"The main "problem" is that Hamas has not given up their fight against the occupation and that it, in a very asymetrical fight, uses all means available to it."

 

hey, that sounds exactly what Isreal is doing yet the pro Hamas people are crying that Isreal uses 'unfair force' despite the fact - like your precious Hamas - Isreal uses what resources they have available. *shrug* I think the biggest whining is that people just don't like the fact that Isreal has superior weaponary.

 

 

"collective punishment"

 

But, hey, isn't that what you use to justify Hamas' targeting of Isreali civilians?

 

 

If Hamas was truly pro Palestine and not just anti isreal; they'd actually make REAL changes and not just lip service. Obviously, considering the state of Palestine, Hamas isn't doing a good job. Then again, Hamas isn't loyal to Palestine. It's loyal to Hamas. Afterall, if Hamas loses an election who do the Hamas fighters serve? The Palestine government or Hamas? Hamas, that's who.

 

The Isreali army, on the other hand, serves Isreal. It doesn't matter who leads Isreal either. Same with any actual government. Yeah, Hamas was/is democratically elected but guess what... a democratic government job is to serve the people, and make their lives better, and that includes those who didn't vote for them. Which, btw, Hamas doesn't. In fact, they do the opposite - they murder their Palestinian enemies too. *shrug*

[Meshugger]

Ok, lets play your game then. (Yuusha, Brdays and Rostere)

 

1. Israel opens the border, letting everyone to move as they please

2. Any possible suicidebombing or rocketshooting is met in Jesus-style: "We forgive you"

3. Israel restores water and power to Gaza and whatnot

4....

5. Peace?

 

Questions:

 

1) The palestinians in Gaza (not the West Bank) elect a party that wishes for the destruction of Israel, why is Israel still obliged to have to supply them with food, electricity and water?

 

2) What is the situation in the West Bank? Do they have the same problems of the same magnitude, do they have enough food, water and electricity? Do they have the same amount of violence? Why/why not?

 

3) Why is it that violence against the Isreali "understandable, but not forgivable", but violence against Hamas "Unforgivable state terrorism"? Shouldn't violence be condemned, whoever using it? Should peace-negotiations start with condemnation of one part only?

Edited January 3, 2009 by Meshugger

[Gorgon]

I think it's likely we are in for another round of bulldozing.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01...gaza/index.html

[Gorgon]

1) The palestinians in Gaza (not the West Bank) elect a party that wishes for the destruction of Israel, why is Israel still obliged to have to supply them with food, electricity and water?

 

Because otherwise they would starve. Human rights and all that, I'm sure you must have heard of it. Anyway the money doesn't come from Israel, and all non essential aid was cut to the bone after Hamas was elected. The US, EU, UN, they all responded by cutting off funding, so that Hamas couldn't pay out any wages. No one likes Hamas, but there is a certain sense of hypocrisy to the whole experience. First the international community tells the Palestinians that if they get behind the democratic process they will be rewarded, then the Palestinians go out and vote, only to lose all their funding because we didn't like who they voted for.

 

 

3) Why is it that violence against the Isreali "understandable, but not forgivable", but violence against Hamas "Unforgivable state terrorism"? Shouldn't violence be condemned, whoever using it? Should peace-negotiations start with condemnation of one part only?

That's not a question, it's a misrepresentation.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Gorgon

[Meshugger]

1) The palestinians in Gaza (not the West Bank) elect a party that wishes for the destruction of Israel, why is Israel still obliged to have to supply them with food, electricity and water?

 

Because otherwise they would starve. Human rights and all that, I'm sure you must have heard of it. Anyway the money doesn't come from Israel, and all non essential aid was cut to the bone after Hamas was elected. The US, EU, UN, they all responded by cutting off funding, so that Hamas couldn't pay out any wages. No one likes Hamas, but there is a certain sense of hypocrisy to the whole experience. First the international community tells the Palestinians that if they get behind the democratic process they will be rewarded, then the Palestinians go out and vote, only to lose all their funding because we didn't like who they voted for.

 

 

3) Why is it that violence against the Isreali "understandable, but not forgivable", but violence against Hamas "Unforgivable state terrorism"? Shouldn't violence be condemned, whoever using it? Should peace-negotiations start with condemnation of one part only?

That's not a question, it's a misrepresentation.

 

1) Strange answer. Who said that the well-being of the people of the Gaza strip Israel's concern? Why not also Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Africa, Europe and America as well? Who decides on whose responsibility to feed people from another state?

 

However, i can agree that organizations such as the red cross and alike should be able to send supplies as they see fit to the palestinians. But it is not in the responsibility of another state, unless they voluntarily do so.

 

Doesn't Gaza grow any food of their own? Has Israel killed all sheep, pigs, cattle and burnt their crops of fruits and vegetables as well?

 

Why is hypocricy in banning a terrorist organization? Shouldn't there be consequences for electing a party that has a foreign policy to destroy other states? Or are the palestinians a special case?

 

3) This question was directed at the ones solely condemning Israel. Shouldn't violence be condemned on both sides?

 

Waiting for answers for question (2)...

Edited January 3, 2009 by Meshugger

[Gorgon]

1) Strange answer. Who said that the well-being of the people of the Gaza strip Israel's concern? Why not also Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Africa, Europe and America as well? Who decides on whose responsibility to feed people from another state?

It's their concern obviously because they are the ones bombing the place, and they decide what comes in and out of Gaza, or were you asking whether Israel should care about human rights at all. I don't know how to answer that.

 

Doesn't Gaza grow any food of their own? Has Israel killed all sheep, pigs, cattle and burnt their crops of fruits and vegetables as well?

The conflict has killed off most of the economy in Gaza long ago, it's more like a giant refugee camp managed by Israel than the Palestinian seat of government.

 

Why is hypocricy in banning a terrorist organization? Shouldn't there be consequences for electing a party that has a foreign policy to destroy other states? Or are the palestinians a special case?

 

Elections don't mean anything if another country decides what parties people are allowed to vote for, in any case Hamas was not banned from the election, they won, as I'm sure you were aware. I have already explained what consequences that election had.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Gorgon

[Meshugger]

1) Strange answer. Who said that the well-being of the people of the Gaza strip Israel's concern? Why not also Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Africa, Europe and America as well? Who decides on whose responsibility to feed people from another state?

It's their concern obviously because they are the ones bombing the place, and they decide what comes in and out of Gaza, or were you asking whether Israel should care about human rights at all. I don't know how to answer that.

 

Doesn't Gaza grow any food of their own? Has Israel killed all sheep, pigs, cattle and burnt their crops of fruits and vegetables as well?

The conflict has killed off most of the economy in Gaza long ago, it's more like a giant refugee camp managed by Israel than the Palestinian seat of government.

 

Why is hypocricy in banning a terrorist organization? Shouldn't there be consequences for electing a party that has a foreign policy to destroy other states? Or are the palestinians a special case?

 

Elections don't mean anything if another country decides what parties people are allowed to vote for, in any case Hamas was not banned from the election, they won, as I'm sure you were aware. I have already explained what consequences that election had.

 

1) Eh? Hamas have been firing rockets at Israel for the last couple of months, should Hamas then supply Israel with food, water and electricity for each rocket? As i already said, i agree that the UN, red cross and whatnot should be allowed into Gaza as they see fit. And oh, is the border completely shut down? What about the border to Egypt? Aren't any supplies allowed to pass through there?

 

Refugee camp? With universities, schools, TV-stations, infrastructure(somewhat), businesses, hospitals and such? Is the land completely impossible to farm?

 

Again, Hamas won and the international community said that they wouldn't cut funds if they recognized the state of Israel and would negotiate about the future of the palestinian state, which they of course refused. If Hamas refused to negotiate about the terms of aid, then so be it. It is in their responsibility to handle the consequenses.

 

No country has overthrown the palestininan goverment of course, which would have been a hypocrisy.

[Rostere]

I live by the virtue of "Do unto others as they do unto you." I keep to myself, mind my own business and never start a fight, but if someone gets in my face I do my best to finish it. As I said, there are no good guys in this conflict but Israel has the right to defend itself by whatever means it deems fit. If Hamas didn't want hundreds dead within their borders maybe they shouldn't have fired those rockets.

 

That is a fine way to live as long as you don't get into a fight with someone else who follows the same philosophy. Then you'll never see the end of it.

 

Not only won't they negotiate a peace, they won't even extend the ceasefire.

 

Actually, Hamas would not really benefit from a ceasefire and/ or lifting of the embargo preventing food and medical supplies from reaching Gaza. You see, this is a game that is played on many levels, not only by military forces. Did you know that about 90 % of Hamas activity is in the field of social welfare and education? Can you even begin to understand the kind of popular support they get in a place like Gaza, where medicine, food and somewhere to work are hard to come by? Whose side would you be on, if (some or all of) your relatives have been killed in an Isreali air strike, your house in Israel was razed by the military as "retaliation" for an act of terrorism you don't even know of, and now you are a refugee in Gaza, hungry and without somewhere to go.

 

Did you know that of the 1.4 million people living in Gaza, 1 million are Palestinian refugees who were once living in Israel? Now, I think you can begin to understand how Hamas can have popular support even though they will not take the conflict one further inch towards peace. And to even think there are people who think "let's just do one more air raid, and then they'll learn and we can all have peace" or "let's starve them to death through embargoes, maybe then they won't go to Hamas for help". Those actions will only further increase the support of Hamas, and in the end the Zionist and Palestinian extremists who want to kill each other will be the only ones who benefit from their situation.

 

Ok, lets play your game then. (Rostere)

 

1. Israel opens the border, letting everyone to move as they please

2. Any possible suicidebombing or rocketshooting is met in Jesus-style: "We forgive you"

3. Israel restores water and power to Gaza and whatnot

4....

5. Peace?

 

No, you got it all wrong. It should be like this:

 

1. Israel opens the border, letting medicine and food in as they are needed.

2. Any possible suicide bombing or rocket shooting is met in Jesus-style: "We forgive you".

3. Israel restores water and power to Gaza.

4. Support for Hamas and other extreme movements diminishes because their humanitarian efforts are no longer needed. The 1967 borders are restored, and illegal (under the Geneva convention and international law) Israeli settlements on Palestinian land are abandoned. American, European and Israeli organizations co- operate to build new schools, hospitals and places to work where you won't need to sign an oath of allegiance (sic) to Hamas. Since the quality of life has increased for those in Gaza, more moderate elements gain power, a process which has already begun in the West Bank. Palestinian refugees are allowed to return to their homes in Israel, after being prohibited to do so by the Israeli government simply because of their race.

5. Peace.

 

Questions:

 

1) The palestinians in Gaza (not the West Bank) elect a party that wishes for the destruction of Israel, why is Israel still obliged to have to supply them with food, electricity and water?

 

2) What is the situation in the West Bank? Do they have the same problems of the same magnitude, do they have enough food, water and electricity? Do they have the same amount of violence? Why/why not?

 

3) Why is it that violence against the Isreali "understandable, but not forgivable", but violence against Hamas "Unforgivable state terrorism"? Shouldn't violence be condemned, whoever using it? Should peace-negotiations start with condemnation of one part only?

 

I've already answered the first two questions in my response to "Wrath of Dagon".

 

I do condemn violence regardless of which side it comes from. The last month, one side has murdered four people with rocket attacks. The other responded with a ruthless massacre where over four hundred people died and over two thousand (!) were wounded. Can't you see how someone is using their authority and military superiority for the wrong ends? Suppose you neighbour killed four people, would it lead to a better world if the military bombed your block, leaving four hundred buried under the rubble of your houses? Four hundred is such a large number it's hard to even begin to understand the bad repercussions it will have in the conflict.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Rostere

[Kaftan Barlast]

Youve probably seen it on the news aswell but IDF has started the main ground offensive just now. So now its full-on urban guerilla warfare, just like back in the 80s. Hopefully, there will be atleast some results this time although its highly doubtful.

[Wrath of Dagon]

No, you got it all wrong. It should be like this:

 

1. Israel opens the border, letting medicine and food in as they are needed.

2. Any possible suicide bombing or rocket shooting is met in Jesus-style: "We forgive you".

3. Israel restores water and power to Gaza.

4. Support for Hamas and other extreme movements diminishes because their humanitarian efforts are no longer needed. The 1967 borders are restored, and illegal (under the Geneva convention and international law) Israeli settlements on Palestinian land are abandoned. American, European and Israeli organizations co- operate to build new schools, hospitals and places to work where you won't need to sign an oath of allegiance (sic) to Hamas. Since the quality of life has increased for those in Gaza, more moderate elements gain power, a process which has already begun in the West Bank. Palestinian refugees are allowed to return to their homes in Israel, after being prohibited to do so by the Israeli government simply because of their race.

5. Peace.

Do you believe in Santa Clause too? With the credit Hamas would get for improving the lives of Palestinians while attacking the hated enemy with impunity, they would only get stronger and more popular. What you're talking about has never happened in human history, to maintain such fantasy is mindboggling. As I've said before, Israel did try to improve the lives of Palestinians, in fact things are much better on the West Bank, but it's impossible to do when all attempts at reconciliation are met with suicide bombings and rocket fire.

[Dark_Raven]

 

Peace.

 

But in all seriousness those damn jews need to give Gaza back over to the Palestinians. On top of that America needs to stop supporting Isreal. But this can't happen until Hamas and those associated are taken out of play, permamently.

[Gorgon]

And how would you accomplish that. Magic... Trying to assassinate them one by one has not been terribly successful at anything other than broadening their support base.

[Rostere]

Do you believe in Santa Clause too? With the credit Hamas would get for improving the lives of Palestinians while attacking the hated enemy with impunity, they would only get stronger and more popular. What you're talking about has never happened in human history, to maintain such fantasy is mindboggling.

 

No honestly, go ahead and pick an example of where an oppressed minority got recognized as equals/ got their own land and then chose war instead. Hamas would get zero credit when the resources were coming from a third part, neutral in the conflict. If you could choose, would you get your food from, say, the UN or from some crazed fanatics?

 

As I've said before, Israel did try to improve the lives of Palestinians, in fact things are much better on the West Bank, but it's impossible to do when all attempts at reconciliation are met with suicide bombings and rocket fire.

 

The situation is worse in Gaza because it has a larger population density and a lower standard of living. These circumstances are in place because of events earlier in the conflict, and the main factor today is Israel's embargo, making impossible all trade and humanitarian aid. Also since those circumstances has been around for a while, Gaza is the traditional stronghold of more radical movements than the West Bank. Like I've already explained, the only helping hand remaining for the inhabitants of Gaza in need of food, work and medical aid is Hamas.

 

Seriously, why do YOU think rocket attacks come from Gaza and not from the West Bank? Is it because the people living in Gaza are inherently "evil" (and therefore, they deserve to be massacred)? They act the way they do because they're desperate and, through the influence of Hamas, brainwashed. You've got to use reason to reach your goals, there's no point with or need to run around whacking peoples heads with clubs like this was the stone age. Right now, Israel is raising the stakes and instead of ending the conflict peacefully it will end with genocide, from one side or the other.

[Meshugger]

I was about to respond, but awwwwwww sh*t, Israel just with the tanks.

[Volourn]

"First the international community tells the Palestinians that if they get behind the democratic process they will be rewarded, then the Palestinians go out and vote, only to lose all their funding because we didn't like who they voted for."

 

It's called consequences for poor chocies. It happens to EVERYONE. Countries always place embargos on other countries/governments they have a serious disagreement with. Just ask NK, Iran (who actually technically have an 'elected' president, l0l), and others.

 

No country should be forced to trade with another if they don't want. Palestinians wanted Hamas as the ruling party, and they got them. And, yeah, Hamas is doing a WONDERFUL job for the Palestinian job. Palestinian is a craphole exactly because Hamas is in power. The reason why countries cut off a lot of aid to Palestine when Hamas won the election is ebcause a lot of that aid went striaght into weapons not actual aid for the people who need food, clean water, and a place to live. Oh yeah, you forgot about that.

 

And, oh, I like how people ignore the fact, that as an elected Palestinian governemnt, Hamas shouldn't be mass murdering Palestinians. But, they do. Just ask Fatah, who by the way, have elected officials too. And, oh, when Fatah was in power, Palestinian was in better shape (not great shape; just better). Hence, Hamas has failed as the governemtn. In most democratic government, the people tend to vote out failed governments.

 

 

"Hamas would get zero credit when the resources were coming from a third part, neutral in the conflict. If you could choose, would you get your food from, say, the UN or from some crazed fanatics?"

No, if yours cenario works out, where the Paletsinian gets everything they want but Hams doesn't stop fighting, then Hamas and their supports would clip they 'won' strictly because of Hamas' tatics basiclaly justifying the specific targeting of civilians.

 

 

P.S. I do agree that the bulldozing of homes is simply wrong, though. But, then aagin, I never claimed Isreal was innocent of all wrong doing.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Volourn

[Dark_Raven]

P.S. I do agree that the bulldozing of homes is simply wrong, though. But, then aagin, I never claimed Isreal was innocent of all wrong doing.

 

The jews have now become the victimizers as they were the victims in Nazi Germany. Thye must have learned a few things under the Nazi bootheel.

[Kaftan Barlast]

P.S. I do agree that the bulldozing of homes is simply wrong, though. But, then aagin, I never claimed Isreal was innocent of all wrong doing.

 

The jews have now become the victimizers as they were the victims in Nazi Germany. Thye must have learned a few things under the Nazi bootheel.

 

 

Aaaww, and here I was hoping for something REALLY offensive so I could make fun of you for being a moron

[Dark_Raven]

For the Fatherland!

Edited January 3, 2009 by Dark_Raven

[Volourn]

"Tens of thousands of Israeli Arabs demonstrated in the northern town of Sakhnin, by far the biggest protest in Israel so far. Marchers held Palestinian flags and a smattering of green Hamas flags. But there were no reports of violence."

 

GAME OVER.

[Killian Kalthorne]

That does not change the fact that Hamas fired rockets and tried to kill Israelis, which the Israelis have the right to respond in whatever means they deem appropriate.

[Rostere]

That does not change the fact that Hamas fired rockets and tried to kill Israelis, which the Israelis have the right to respond in whatever means they deem appropriate.

 

Sure thing, just like when you commit a crime, then you should also be punished in any way the victim deems appropriate. Fair? I hear that Hamas say the punishment for murdering civilians in Gaza is death. I'm sure we'll see an end to this conflict soon, if everyone who feels victimized just keep in mind that they should "respond in whatever means they deem appropriate".

[Trenitay]

A country is different than an individual. If someone kills your wife, you may feel like you need revenge, but you let the law handle it. If you're a country, you are the law, and you have to take care of it.

[Yuusha]

@Meshugger:

I'll answer your question in a few hours. In the meantime, enjoy....