Wootastic

[Grand_Commander13]

Okay, I hate telling people how to do their jobs, but unrealistic weapon design based solely on game balance is something I hate even more.

 

I mean... No, no NO!!! There are all sorts of things you could do to differentiate pistols, SMGs, and assault rifles without making them so grossly unrealistic. Pistols are easy to conceal (I know people are praying for loadout for stealth versus combat to make a difference in this game), differentiating them from SMGs which are better in a fight but hard to act casual with. As for SMGs versus assault rifles, three things come to mind: make the mouse sensitivity higher on the SMG than the assault rifle (yes, people can just adjust their sensitivity to taste, but then there's always...), make body armored enemies that body hits with the SMG can't hurt, and finally, have RANGE matter.

 

Oh, if only I had gotten here earlier in the development process...

[Joseph Bulock]

There are all sorts of things you could do to differentiate pistols, SMGs, and assault rifles without making them so grossly unrealistic.

 

Keep in mind that AP is not a hardcore survival military simulator. Realism is not goal number one. Goal number one is fun, goal number two is getting the cinematic action movie feel. We're keeping the game firmly rooted in the modern day setting, but not in a simulationist mentality.

[Grand_Commander13]

Oh I know, I know. Part of my insistence is I'm still reeling from Mass Effect's pointless unrealism (they could have just as easily not included the pistol at all and nobody would have noticed, but instead they made it more accurate than the assault rifle, and potentially more DPS too [and always more damage per bullet]).

 

But the great thing is: you can be realistic without being all hardcore simmy. Do I want some scenes where Thorton can bust two SMGs out on some dudes? Heck yeah, recoil be darned! But I never wanna catch myself saying "uh-oh, that dude's pretty far away, lemme put away this bullet hose of a rifle/SMG and get out my pistol so I can make an accurate shot."

 

If it was something that could or would be changed, believe me, nothing would make me happier than helping you by tossing out some more ideas to help make each weapon useful without taking away from that action movie feel you're going for (and we're all wanting) OR from a reasonable facsimile of "realism". I enjoy helping much more than throwing stones, but as I said, I'm just afraid you'd have that decision long since locked down and coded.

[Joseph Bulock]

Oh I know, I know. Part of my insistence is I'm still reeling from Mass Effect's pointless unrealism (they could have just as easily not included the pistol at all and nobody would have noticed, but instead they made it more accurate than the assault rifle, and potentially more DPS too [and always more damage per bullet]).

 

But the great thing is: you can be realistic without being all hardcore simmy. Do I want some scenes where Thorton can bust two SMGs out on some dudes? Heck yeah, recoil be darned! But I never wanna catch myself saying "uh-oh, that dude's pretty far away, lemme put away this bullet hose of a rifle/SMG and get out my pistol so I can make an accurate shot."

 

If it was something that could or would be changed, believe me, nothing would make me happier than helping you by tossing out some more ideas to help make each weapon useful without taking away from that action movie feel you're going for (and we're all wanting) OR from a reasonable facsimile of "realism". I enjoy helping much more than throwing stones, but as I said, I'm just afraid you'd have that decision long since locked down and coded.

 

I know you're also trying to be helpful, but we're not making the game less realistic out of ignorance. Many of the folks here at Obsidian are very much into simulation combat games of some form or another, and many of us have enough experience with real fire arms to be entirely aware of the ways in which we depart from reality. It's not that we don't know when we depart from reality, we just know what works for the game best, what we have time to change, etc.

[Musopticon?]

Not that fan input plays that much into dev decisions, especially not in the case-by-case way you are suggesting.

 

On SMGs, I understand the pet peeves that people seem to have over design decisions, but I'd like to point out that it's not a combat simulator or even an fps. Making each weapon type unique, since each type responds to one skill and the special abilities therein, makes far more sense than giving the ability to fiddle enough with the weapons to smooth out the uniqueness. Hell, I'd like the ability to make a silent long distance smg with a tagged sight, but the sniper rifles, and the skill as well, would become kind of redundant then.

 

Edit: JB, like all good JBs do, ninja'ed my post.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Musopticon?

[Grand_Commander13]

Urge... To play more Red Orchestra... Rising...

 

Oh, I know the game is in very good hands. But... >.> I'm not gonna be putting away my rifle so I can make an accurate distance shot with my pistol, am I?

 

 

Depending on how the story was written though, the strictly dual-wielding nature of SMGs can be made quite reasonable without causing a spazz attack in tightly-wound people like me. And I sure won't complain about dual-wielded SMGs being inaccurate, no siree bob! For the story thing to work though, the dual SMGs would have to be offered on only missions expected to see heavy action. Otherwise you'd have them on lighter maps and people would be wondering why Thorton couldn't drop one and...

 

*slaps self*

 

Yeah, I think a little Red Orchestra would do me good right now.

[Musopticon?]

*slaps Grand Commander*

 

Ok, I'm going now.

[mkreku]

Okay, I hate telling people how to do their jobs, but unrealistic weapon design based solely on game balance is something I hate even more.

 

I mean... No, no NO!!! There are all sorts of things you could do to differentiate pistols, SMGs, and assault rifles without making them so grossly unrealistic. Pistols are easy to conceal (I know people are praying for loadout for stealth versus combat to make a difference in this game), differentiating them from SMGs which are better in a fight but hard to act casual with. As for SMGs versus assault rifles, three things come to mind: make the mouse sensitivity higher on the SMG than the assault rifle (yes, people can just adjust their sensitivity to taste, but then there's always...), make body armored enemies that body hits with the SMG can't hurt, and finally, have RANGE matter.

 

Oh, if only I had gotten here earlier in the development process...

Oh I know, I know. Part of my insistence is I'm still reeling from Mass Effect's pointless unrealism (they could have just as easily not included the pistol at all and nobody would have noticed, but instead they made it more accurate than the assault rifle, and potentially more DPS too [and always more damage per bullet]).

 

But the great thing is: you can be realistic without being all hardcore simmy. Do I want some scenes where Thorton can bust two SMGs out on some dudes? Heck yeah, recoil be darned! But I never wanna catch myself saying "uh-oh, that dude's pretty far away, lemme put away this bullet hose of a rifle/SMG and get out my pistol so I can make an accurate shot."

 

If it was something that could or would be changed, believe me, nothing would make me happier than helping you by tossing out some more ideas to help make each weapon useful without taking away from that action movie feel you're going for (and we're all wanting) OR from a reasonable facsimile of "realism". I enjoy helping much more than throwing stones, but as I said, I'm just afraid you'd have that decision long since locked down and coded.

Urge... To play more Red Orchestra... Rising...

 

Oh, I know the game is in very good hands. But... >.> I'm not gonna be putting away my rifle so I can make an accurate distance shot with my pistol, am I?

 

 

Depending on how the story was written though, the strictly dual-wielding nature of SMGs can be made quite reasonable without causing a spazz attack in tightly-wound people like me. And I sure won't complain about dual-wielded SMGs being inaccurate, no siree bob! For the story thing to work though, the dual SMGs would have to be offered on only missions expected to see heavy action. Otherwise you'd have them on lighter maps and people would be wondering why Thorton couldn't drop one and...

 

*slaps self*

 

Yeah, I think a little Red Orchestra would do me good right now.

Seriously, I have no idea who this is, but.. LISTEN TO THE MAN! Please!

[Tigranes]

Unusually enough for Obsid games / CRPGs, here I'm in the position of not really being able to empathise because I can't tell the difference. You could tell me every non-energy/non-gauss weapon in FO2 exists in teh real world exactly the same way, and I'd believe that. Don't know a thing about guns. Which means:

 

I'm not gonna be putting away my rifle so I can make an accurate distance shot with my pistol, am I?

 

For a minute I was thinking "isn't that realistic"? Because so many games do that. :/

 

This whole argument is at a massive impasse we can never really get past, though. The devs are doing what they're doing because they think the current setup is the most fun for AP's situations, and we won't know until we get a lot more info to make our own call on that.

 

I have to say, though, I struggle to think of any situation where, say, you can dual-wield but not single-wield SMGs. What, do they sell SMGs by the pair at wall-mart, connected with little chains?

[Hell Kitty]

They sell single SMGs at Walmart?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Also, the gun is a gun comment doesn't really work either. Any weapon with a .22 caliber round is actually going to have a hard time killing someone unless you manage to hit the most vital of areas. That being said, the .22 round does not see a lot of combat use.

Huh? The .223 round is exactly .22 caliber, and is used in M16 and M4 assault rifles. The difference, as has been mentioned, is a longer, heavier bullet and a much more powerful cartridge. With all that, the M16 actually has less recoil than 9 mm pistol, and much less than a .357 (same caliber), which can actually hurt your hand it kicks so hard. The reason is a much smaller bullet to gun mass ratio of the M16. Also the power of a bullet mostly depends on its energy, which is proporitonal to its mass and to velocity squared. Thus a relatively light bullet like the .223 has a tremendous amount of energy because of the velocity it is able to achieve. Nevertheless, I completely agree with your idea of doing what works best for the game, instead of what's most realistic.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

They sell single SMGs at Walmart?

 

Yeah, what neighborhood did *you* grow up in?

 

On another note, there isn't a whole lot we can say in response to 'it's awesome, trust us' (paraphrased). Either it is, or it isn't. To a certain extent I see what they're trying to do, and I think it has killed balance for more games than it has assisted balance. It also makes me wonder what will happen to the other weapon categories, and whether the gunplay will have a solid visceral feel to it. As usual, I hope my skepticism is unfounded.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

So many akward decisions (ammo, forced dual-wielding, stance system, whatever)...

 

I think I'll just lower my expectations to the point of anything that isn't a steaming pile of filth will work. Hip-hip-hurray for cynisism.

[Calax]

I donno, I think we'll probably see somthing along the lines of the SMG's being used to charge opponents by keeping their heads down with stupid amounts of inaccurate lead, and once you get closer you simply beat the crap out of em with your kung fu.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Realism is not goal number one.

 

Dual-wield sniper rifles plz ^_^

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Many of the folks here at Obsidian are very much into simulation combat games of some form or another, and many of us have enough experience with real fire arms.

 

Obsidian Entertainment: the NRA of CRPG design?

[Morgoth]

Ferg knows how to swing his Desert Eagle!