Not Islam

[Walsingham]

Wow. I thought we'd got beyond some of the notions here ages ago.

 

1. To talk about Islam having a unitary authority and somehow being able to 'take action' is to do nothing more than show a total ignorance of how all three main strands of Islam work. Shia Islam is the closest to having a religious orthodoxy in the ayatollahs, but Sunnis feel that authority is bogus.

 

2. Correlation does not imply causation. Violence and ignorance might correlate with religion. I sure as hell know that on the occasions I've been chased by mobs in the dark, and sniped at I've been praying like crazy. But I've also met great thinkers, and humanitarians who were religious. Bishop Desmond Tutu is one example, Mahatma Ghandi would be another but I could go on.

 

3. My learned friends appear to put an unnatural emphasis on the requirement for Islam (see point 1) to take a stand against radicalism. Firstly, and most importantly, leaders and religious men do regularly take a stand, and get killed for their trouble. So don't you dare accuse the whole of being cowards. Secondly, where were the parades of American Irish against terrorism in Ireland? Or for that matter the English parades against Loyalist violence?

[Meshugger]

I tried to make a difference between personal belief vs. religious dogma. Apparantly i failed.

 

I do not think that Desmond Tutu and Mahatma Gandhi were as they were because of religion. Rather they acted out of a strong personal conviction on what is right, something that i firmly believe (hur-hur) that most people can do by instinct. They simply happened to be religious as well. Religion is just a manifistation of our great imagination.

[Killian Kalthorne]

In my ever so humble opinion, Bishop Desmond Tutu and Mahatma Ghandi are two good examples of those who have moved beyond our instinctual need for violence.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Killian Kalthorne

[Lare Kikkeli]

In my ever so humble opinion, Bishop Desmond Tutu and Mahatma Ghandi are two good examples of those who have moved beyond our instinctual need for violence.

 

macgyver, too

[Hiro Protagonist]

I think Islam is a backwards religion, prejudiced against women, etc, but I draw the line at saying that Muslims are such and such, behave so and so. etc. It's pretty simple, the former is my opinion on religion, the latter is a gross generalization about individuals.

 

I think it's more than just prejudiced against woman. They don't seem to want to assimilate at all. And when this is exposed by the media, we always get Imams saying 'it's just a few bad apples, a minority thing. It's not mainstream within the Muslim community'.

 

Some Muslim religious leaders condoning rape within marriage, domestic violence, polygamy, welfare fraud and exploitation of women.

 

Also, Muslim school has banned the national anthem at assemblies - and sacked the teacher who asked for it to be played.

[Hurlshort]

Have any of you actually discussed this with a Muslim woman? I have. There is a separation of the sexes. They appreciate this, because men and women are different. But in the Mosque I visit regularly, Muslim women aren't oppressed. Many of the women I have met are well educated and hold affluent jobs. There is nothing in the core teaching of Islam that says women should be oppressed. It's quite the opposite, women are supposed to be given respect and treated as equals. Covering themselves in public is about modesty to these women.

 

Now of course there are many Muslim countries that oppress women. But again, I blame the leadership of those countries, not the religion.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Have any of you actually discussed this with a Muslim woman? I have. There is a separation of the sexes. They appreciate this, because men and women are different. But in the Mosque I visit regularly, Muslim women aren't oppressed. Many of the women I have met are well educated and hold affluent jobs. There is nothing in the core teaching of Islam that says women should be oppressed. It's quite the opposite, women are supposed to be given respect and treated as equals. Covering themselves in public is about modesty to these women.

 

Now of course there are many Muslim countries that oppress women. But again, I blame the leadership of those countries, not the religion.

 

It's not only restricted to Muslim countries. The link that I supplied was a report that was done a couple of weeks ago. Also, a Muslim woman in a mosque is probably not going to tell you and be reluctant to say she is oppressed or tell you what's really going on at home - if she is oppressed. The link I supplied shows "It is the result of extensive community consultation, interviews with police, lawyers, court workers and academics, and meetings with and questions to the Victorian Board of Imams". I think I would be more inclined to believe a report like this than a muslim woman's 'word' in a mosque.

[Humodour]

Have any of you actually discussed this with a Muslim woman? I have. There is a separation of the sexes. They appreciate this, because men and women are different. But in the Mosque I visit regularly, Muslim women aren't oppressed. Many of the women I have met are well educated and hold affluent jobs. There is nothing in the core teaching of Islam that says women should be oppressed. It's quite the opposite, women are supposed to be given respect and treated as equals. Covering themselves in public is about modesty to these women.

 

Now of course there are many Muslim countries that oppress women. But again, I blame the leadership of those countries, not the religion.

 

The Alevi would disagree.

[julianw]

Islam is a beautiful religion but many of its ideologies are outdated; and the Islamic priesthood is probably more corrupt than the Catholic Church. This is just one instance, but some of the Mosques in Iran actually raise money with prostitution practices which leaves their mullahs with very little credibility in my eyes.

[Hurlshort]

Have any of you actually discussed this with a Muslim woman? I have. There is a separation of the sexes. They appreciate this, because men and women are different. But in the Mosque I visit regularly, Muslim women aren't oppressed. Many of the women I have met are well educated and hold affluent jobs. There is nothing in the core teaching of Islam that says women should be oppressed. It's quite the opposite, women are supposed to be given respect and treated as equals. Covering themselves in public is about modesty to these women.

 

Now of course there are many Muslim countries that oppress women. But again, I blame the leadership of those countries, not the religion.

 

The Alevi would disagree.

 

That was interesting, I knew very little about the Alevi. I should qualify that the Muslim women only wear the headscarf and such when they go to the mosque.

[Walsingham]

Hiro, you're not paying attention. There's no such thing in Islam as a 'church'. So there can't be any effective action taken against a 'rogue' preacher, because technically he's not rogue.

 

I think Islam is a backwards religion, prejudiced against women, etc, but I draw the line at saying that Muslims are such and such, behave so and so. etc. It's pretty simple, the former is my opinion on religion, the latter is a gross generalization about individuals.

 

I think it's more than just prejudiced against woman. They don't seem to want to assimilate at all. And when this is exposed by the media, we always get Imams saying 'it's just a few bad apples, a minority thing. It's not mainstream within the Muslim community'.

 

Some Muslim religious leaders condoning rape within marriage, domestic violence, polygamy, welfare fraud and exploitation of women.

 

Also, Muslim school has banned the national anthem at assemblies - and sacked the teacher who asked for it to be played.

[samm]

Islam is a beautiful religion but many of its ideologies are outdated; and the Islamic priesthood is probably more corrupt than the Catholic Church. This is just one instance, but some of the Mosques in Iran actually raise money with prostitution practices which leaves their mullahs with very little credibility in my eyes.

I doubt there is more corruption or outdated-ness than in christian circles - simply because the religion is newer, and corruption is a normal state of being for any human. Also, do you have a link or something more substantial on the claim in the last sentence?

 

Btw, on the topic of Islamic countries: Religion and state should never mingle. This is a very, very bad idea and always automatically causes trouble, at very least in the form of discrimination. The same is true not only for Islamic countries, but any state founded on religion. Cf. one nation under god, or our constitution which begins with something like 'In the name of god the almighty...' - which actually should be considered blasphemy and hubris by religious people.

Edited December 6, 2008 by samm

[Gorgon]

Well one could reasonably argue that 'Islam' constitutes the sum total of practices and dogma.

 

 

Have any of you actually discussed this with a Muslim woman? I have. There is a separation of the sexes. They appreciate this, because men and women are different. But in the Mosque I visit regularly, Muslim women aren't oppressed. Many of the women I have met are well educated and hold affluent jobs. There is nothing in the core teaching of Islam that says women should be oppressed. It's quite the opposite, women are supposed to be given respect and treated as equals. Covering themselves in public is about modesty to these women.

 

Now of course there are many Muslim countries that oppress women. But again, I blame the leadership of those countries, not the religion.

 

The Alevi would disagree.

 

That was interesting, I knew very little about the Alevi. I should qualify that the Muslim women only wear the headscarf and such when they go to the mosque.

Really, I thought that was only the case with very few reformed Islamic countries such as Turkey.

 

In any case you cannot be an Islamic woman and escape ostracisation if you do not wear it. I can't say anything about what it's like having to face that kind of pressure, the experience is beyond me. Most women seem to focus on the discrimination they experience from the outside, which is an expected dynamic. That doesn't mean that there isn't something inherently discriminatory at the core.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Gorgon

[leombruno]

Lording the female condition over Islamic people is kind of hollow.

 

When their not getting bombed with more add dollars than anyone they are free to go fake 100% of their looks and go make out with each other at the club while the boys look on and drool.

 

We must want to make the muslim world realize they wish they had our gig...

Edited December 6, 2008 by leombruno

[Brdavs]

This "Islam" discussion is a mute point, honestly. A shroud and an easy thing to point a finger at to avoid the uderlying issues that are the real problem.

 

I mean sure, in some segments its an arhaic system of beliefs. Now show me a religion that is not. christianity and judaism also have more than their fair share of norms that would strike us odd. And they both have their fare share of fundamentalists (orthodox christians, zionists etc. etc.)... Saying islam is not "evolved enough" is silly, neither chirstianity or judaism are particulary more "enlightened". Their practicioners are just, for the most part, far better off. The roles could have very well been and indeed have been reversed.

 

The only difference is the objective set of differences these groups face. "We" conduct "state terorism", simply because we can. Crazy people dont go around on suicide missions because they have reasons to live for and decent lives in nonoccupied countries/regions. They vote far right parties instead lol. Induviduals in the so called "muslim world" are for the most part stuck with its crude methods they`re willing to employ cos they have little or nothing left. Desperate times for desperate measures I suppose.

Islam has about as much to do with it as a cover of the book has with the content. It`s a fascade. If a man grows up in a refugee camp, sees people die, has his house demolished, is treated like garbage for his entire life with zero to slim prospect of a meaningfull or decent existance, sees his region being a playgroud for foreign powers that value profit and strategic interest over the lives of the locals and so decides to blow himself up since that is about the only thing he can do against his opposition that has any effect, dont you think there are other issues there worth mentioning before his particular brand of fndamental faith? At the end of it all, what difference does it make wether he yells "allah", "jahve" or "god wills it" when he`s pushing the button? For petes sake, back in the day the jews were the resident ME terrorists. What, judaism "evolved" in the past 100 years or so? Get real. Objective circumstances changed in their favor. Thats it. You still have plenty whacko Izraelis to this day that would prolly do some crazy stuff were they the ones in camps etc.

 

Pointing at islam is finding a convenient and simple reason&"enemy" for the masses that are to lazy to use their brains. Or just flat out refuse to do so since they might come to some unpleasant conclusions and realizations about some co-responsibility for the state of world affairs. Keeping to the old and tested recepy. Find a recognisable outside enemy. Simplify. Demonize. Sleep tight knowing your bases are covered and questions wont be asked.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Brdavs

[Gorgon]

Institutional discrimination is institutional discrimination, it don't make no never mind what religion does it. It just rubs me the wrong way.

[Humodour]

Actually, Brdavs, it has a fair bit to do with Islam since many of the countries in question follow some interpretation of Sharia law which is largely responsible for not just encouraging the human rights abuses we so despise, but preventing reform towards stopping them. That's not true of Christianity or Judaism. (Maybe it was in the past? Certainly not in the present though - you know, the era we currently live in.) And no claims that Islam is a religion of peace and the countries in question have distorted it, please - their holy texts are every bit as barbaric as the Bible and Torah, with the unfortunate distinction that the average Muslim still follow them from a fundamentalist perspective.

 

I will rigorously defend a place like Turkey - somewhere which the level of religious fundamentalism is noticeable but relatively low, and separation of church and state is an enshrined foundation of the country similar to, say, America. A great example of why Islam is no different to any other religion. Unfortunately, unlike America, Turkey is more the exception to the rule for its respective religion. This is a result of cultural processes more than anything, but nethertheless Islam still lies at the heart of the problem - Middle Eastern culture has actually developed further towards religious fundamentalism in recent history, but the resulting strict interpretation of Islam vigourously encourages such fundamentalism. Quite a catch-22. But this cultural aspect of Islam is also the reason South-East Asia, separated by geography, does not suffer the fundamentalism problem to anywhere near the same extent.

 

I fully expect your next response to claim that human rights are a relative Western institution and it's none of our business to expect other countries to uphold them.

 

EDit: Although I'm personally not a fan of vilifying Islam or using it as a scapegoat. My point is that in order to understand the problems in the Middle East (as a precursor to helping solve them), it's important to know why they exist. Shoving it under the carpet like the Brits and Brdavs do as "THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH ISLAM! IT'S ALL DUE TO WESTERN IMPERIALISM." does nobody any good.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Krezack

[Tigranes]

And no claims that Islam is a religion of peace and the countries in question have distorted it, please - their holy texts are every bit as barbaric as the Bible and Torah, with the unfortunate distinction that the average Muslim still follow them from a fundamentalist perspective.

 

True, if you want to apply your definition of 'barbaric' on the religions. Hoooo. Leaving that aside, though (cause that's really an unresolvable debate), yes, it's true that Muslims in general are more strict and literal in following their scripture. From the perspective of the believer that might actually be a good thing.

 

By the way, who came up with this religion v. state thing? I mean, Krez, I'm just trying to point out how partisan you are, though not out of intent. You're instinctively employing a lot of ideals like separation of church and state and your idea of 'civilisation', most of which originate from a heavily christian-influenced nation. Then you're able to say "Middle Eastern culture has actually developed further towards religious fundamentalism in recent history" as if that was, of course, a negative and dangerous thing.

 

certainly, I think that way too. I would abhor a situation where my native country is built around a religion that I may not subscribe to. But is it so farfetched to consider a possibility where a strong Islamic theocracy based on a non-extremist but strict interpretation of the religious law is the best course for Middle Eastern nations? Not every country has to be infected with the secular capitalist democracy virus, despite the best efforts of American and other governments.

[Brdavs]

Actually, Brdavs, it has a fair bit to do with Islam since many of the countries in question follow some interpretation of Sharia law which is largely responsible for not just encouraging the human rights abuses we so despise, but preventing reform towards stopping them. That's not true of Christianity or Judaism. (Maybe it was in the past? Certainly not in the present though - you know, the era we currently live in.) And no claims that Islam is a religion of peace and the countries in question have distorted it, please - their holy texts are every bit as barbaric as the Bible and Torah, with the unfortunate distinction that the average Muslim still follow them from a fundamentalist perspective.

 

I will rigorously defend a place like Turkey - somewhere which the level of religious fundamentalism is noticeable but relatively low, and separation of church and state is an enshrined foundation of the country similar to, say, America. A great example of why Islam is no different to any other religion. Unfortunately, unlike America, Turkey is more the exception to the rule for its respective religion. This is a result of cultural processes more than anything, but nethertheless Islam still lies at the heart of the problem - Middle Eastern culture has actually developed further towards religious fundamentalism in recent history, but the resulting strict interpretation of Islam vigourously encourages such fundamentalism. Quite a catch-22. But this cultural aspect of Islam is also the reason South-East Asia, separated by geography, does not suffer the fundamentalism problem to anywhere near the same extent.

 

I fully expect your next response to claim that human rights are a relative Western institution and it's none of our business to expect other countries to uphold them.

 

EDit: Although I'm personally not a fan of vilifying Islam or using it as a scapegoat. My point is that in order to understand the problems in the Middle East (as a precursor to helping solve them), it's important to know why they exist. Shoving it under the carpet like the Brits and Brdavs do as "THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH ISLAM! IT'S ALL DUE TO WESTERN IMPERIALISM." does nobody any good.

 

For petes sake, how is saying "the issues are deeper and religious fundamentalism is but a menifestation of those issues" shoving anything under the carpet? It`s the exact opposite, saying islam is "barbaric" is doing that, in a very biggoted manner. There`s a billion muslims in much of the world, vest vast vast majority of them "moderate" by our standards. Head per head and % wise there are more orthodox jews than there are muslims lol. People that have a decent life generally do noot seek refuge in religious fundamentalism. How can that be not obvious?

 

And yes human rights are our institution. Yet we can hardly go cryng foul play when we trample the rights and dignity of those very same people we say their reaction is simply due to rights being violated by Islam.

 

Like I said, these rights and secular lifestyle is a domin of those that can "afford them". (Have you heard any of the american political speaches lately? They on average evoke God only 25% less than your average immam lol) When threathened, opressed, demonized and villified people turn to far wing ideologies. Give people a decent alternative.

Sheria law is what cannon law is/was .Given the right circumstances it will "soften up" and/or be replaced with secular legislature. Has in Indonesia for instance. No denying it west leads the way in this (with churches battling it every inch of the way), but there is ZERO foundation to say "islam is too barbaric for it to work like that".

And woe and behold, we just occupied the most secular state in ME. Whoopsie heh. Im sure its just Islams fault anyways. Those quarter of a billion perfect examples overe there are a fluke. Pile on the bombs. Having sex for virginity.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Just to interject here, I find that any institution that relies more on faith and belief than credible evidence and facts as barbaric and archaic. Also, on the human rights issue, particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan, those people have more rights now after our invasions than they did before we took over and with a little luck they will have even more once we leave.

[Tigranes]

faith and belief than credible evidence and fact

 

Of course it sounds bad if you put it like that.

[Trenitay]

Pretty much every religion puts faith and belief above evidence and fact. Does that make them barbaric and archaic.

[Hurlshort]

Well, you need to qualify that statement a bit. Not all religions are about choosing faith and belief above evidence and fact. There isn't evidence for or against the idea of a higher power.

 

For example, we have evidence about the world's age, we have evidence that dinosaurs exist. Most religions don't dispute that evidence, but the evidence doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of a higher power.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Good point, and if you study history, you'll notice there's a definite pattern to events.

[Meshugger]

Actually, Brdavs, it has a fair bit to do with Islam since many of the countries in question follow some interpretation of Sharia law which is largely responsible for not just encouraging the human rights abuses we so despise, but preventing reform towards stopping them. That's not true of Christianity or Judaism. (Maybe it was in the past? Certainly not in the present though - you know, the era we currently live in.) And no claims that Islam is a religion of peace and the countries in question have distorted it, please - their holy texts are every bit as barbaric as the Bible and Torah, with the unfortunate distinction that the average Muslim still follow them from a fundamentalist perspective.

 

I will rigorously defend a place like Turkey - somewhere which the level of religious fundamentalism is noticeable but relatively low, and separation of church and state is an enshrined foundation of the country similar to, say, America. A great example of why Islam is no different to any other religion. Unfortunately, unlike America, Turkey is more the exception to the rule for its respective religion. This is a result of cultural processes more than anything, but nethertheless Islam still lies at the heart of the problem - Middle Eastern culture has actually developed further towards religious fundamentalism in recent history, but the resulting strict interpretation of Islam vigourously encourages such fundamentalism. Quite a catch-22. But this cultural aspect of Islam is also the reason South-East Asia, separated by geography, does not suffer the fundamentalism problem to anywhere near the same extent.

 

I fully expect your next response to claim that human rights are a relative Western institution and it's none of our business to expect other countries to uphold them.

 

EDit: Although I'm personally not a fan of vilifying Islam or using it as a scapegoat. My point is that in order to understand the problems in the Middle East (as a precursor to helping solve them), it's important to know why they exist. Shoving it under the carpet like the Brits and Brdavs do as "THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH ISLAM! IT'S ALL DUE TO WESTERN IMPERIALISM." does nobody any good.

 

For petes sake, how is saying "the issues are deeper and religious fundamentalism is but a menifestation of those issues" shoving anything under the carpet? It`s the exact opposite, saying islam is "barbaric" is doing that, in a very biggoted manner. There`s a billion muslims in much of the world, vest vast vast majority of them "moderate" by our standards. Head per head and % wise there are more orthodox jews than there are muslims lol. People that have a decent life generally do noot seek refuge in religious fundamentalism. How can that be not obvious?

 

And yes human rights are our institution. Yet we can hardly go cryng foul play when we trample the rights and dignity of those very same people we say their reaction is simply due to rights being violated by Islam.

 

Like I said, these rights and secular lifestyle is a domin of those that can "afford them". (Have you heard any of the american political speaches lately? They on average evoke God only 25% less than your average immam lol) When threathened, opressed, demonized and villified people turn to far wing ideologies. Give people a decent alternative.

Sheria law is what cannon law is/was .Given the right circumstances it will "soften up" and/or be replaced with secular legislature. Has in Indonesia for instance. No denying it west leads the way in this (with churches battling it every inch of the way), but there is ZERO foundation to say "islam is too barbaric for it to work like that".

And woe and behold, we just occupied the most secular state in ME. Whoopsie heh. Im sure its just Islams fault anyways. Those quarter of a billion perfect examples overe there are a fluke. Pile on the bombs. Having sex for virginity.

 

What's your take on extremist buddhism?