Not Islam

[Aram]

Well we all know they hate things that come in twos.

[Humodour]

I find Islam to be a beautiful religion

 

 

I should probably add that, as someone who studies and teaches History and world religion every day, I find most religions to be beautiful. I am fascinated by them all. That's why I enjoy my job.

 

I'm not committed to any specific religion myself though.

 

I find Islam to be often vindicative and vengeful if we go purely by their holy book and hadiths. Which isn't unique to them (see Judaism and Christianity), but I get the feeling they take such scriptures more to heart (e.g. the widespread adoption of Shari'a in many Muslims countries).

 

I'm a fan of Alevism, though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi

 

(Although lol @ Morgoth's fear of Turks. They'd have to be just about the most progressive and secular bunch of Muslims you're ever going to find.)

[Hurlshort]

Islam is based on 5 pillars, none of which have anything to do with violence or suppression.

 

1. Declaring your faith in one God

2. Praying 5 times a day

3. Making a pilgrimage to Mecca

4. Charity, or sharing wealth with others

5. Fasting during Ramadan

 

Does it really matter how many times a day you pray? Why pray 5 times a day? What if you only pray 4 times a day, does that make you a bad muslim? Who sets these arbitrary numbers anyway?

 

There are quite a few reasons for the 5 times a day prayer that I can come up with. It takes discipline and reinforces the religion consistently throughout the day. It brings Muslims together as they engage in the prayer. I'm no expert on Islam, but I believe the prayers are broken up as follows: early morning prayer, mid-morning prayer (breakfast time), mid-day prayer (lunchtime), evening prayer (dinner time) and before bed prayer. The three prayers in the middle are often performed in large groups, at a mosque if possible. This solidifies the community.

 

I believe the prophet Muhammad set the number, and it was likely a message given to him by the Angel Gabriel. That's what the Qur'an is, messages related to Muhammad from Gabriel. That may sound crazy to many people, but I can't think of any religion that isn't based around something supernatural.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Islam is based on 5 pillars, none of which have anything to do with violence or suppression.

I would almost divide the extremists' Islam into a separate religion, apart and separate from the moderates'.

[Hurlshort]

I find Islam to be often vindicative and vengeful if we go purely by their holy book and hadiths. Which isn't unique to them (see Judaism and Christianity), but I get the feeling they take such scriptures more to heart (e.g. the widespread adoption of Shari'a in many Muslims countries).

 

I'm a fan of Alevism, though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi

 

(Although lol @ Morgoth's fear of Turks. They'd have to be just about the most progressive and secular bunch of Muslims you're ever going to find.)

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I think you can blame that completely on the leadership of these religions. I think there are millions of muslims that practice their religion peacefully, and I think the sense of community it builds is intrinsically crucial for humanity. People who argue that the world would be better off without religion are being unrealistic, religion is a part of human nature. What we can do is hope that religions preach peace above all else.

 

The catholic church is guilty of atrocities throughout history, but in the last couple hundred years it has reached a point where it's very clear it does a ton more good than bad. But it took nearly 2,000 years for that! Islam is a young religion. I think it's just a matter of time before it stabilizes. It needs a reformation, and I wouldn't be surprised if I saw it in my lifetime.

[Humodour]

To be honest I think you've got more hope of the passive secularisation of Islamic countries over time than you do a reformation. Tunisia, Malaysia, Turkey would be good examples of various stages of such a force.

 

I disagree with your assertion that religion is a part of human nature, but fundamentally you're right in that humanity needs something that builds a sense of community. I just disagree that such a thing needs to be religion (although it certainly can be).

Edited December 4, 2008 by Krezack

[Deadly_Nightshade]

The catholic church is guilty of atrocities throughout history, but in the last couple hundred years it has reached a point where it's very clear it does a ton more good than bad.

 

Like spreading misinformation about condoms and AIDs/HIV in Africa and asking Catholics to not give to institutions such as Amnesty International because they, the NGOs, support the use of abortion? Sorry, but until they reign in their missionaries and officials I'm not going to be singing praise about their "efforts."

Edited December 4, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Humodour]

The catholic church is guilty of atrocities throughout history, but in the last couple hundred years it has reached a point where it's very clear it does a ton more good than bad.

 

Like spreading misinformation about condoms and AIDs/HIV in Africa and asking Catholics to not give to institutions such as Amnesty International because they, the NGOs, support the use of contraceptives? Sorry, but until they reign in their missionaries and officials I'm not going to be singing praise about their "efforts."

 

Care to provide some unbiased sources?

Edited December 4, 2008 by Krezack

[Deadly_Nightshade]

So until you provide me unbiased sources I'm going to stop buying into those claims.

 

Here's some info about Amnesty International and the Catholic Church - as for the other issue I'll look into it and see if I can find some sources for you.

 

A.I. vs. C.C. Links:

http://www.amnesty.org.au/svaw/comments/2420/

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07073102.html

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/ite..._international/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/po...hts-461358.html

[Cycloneman]

Care to provide some unbiased sources?

Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo:

[Deadly_Nightshade]

EDIT: Some links are the same as Cycloneman's, he beat me by four minutes or so.

 

The other issue -

 

In 2003:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3176982.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

 

In 2004:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/3844945.stm

 

In 2006:

http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=19561

 

And in 2007:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7014335.stm

http://www.whatthefak.com/geography/africa...e-infected-aids

 

I'll admit that other branches of Christianity are also at fault, but the Catholic Church does not seem to have completely abandoned their old ways.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Humodour]

So until you provide me unbiased sources I'm going to stop buying into those claims.

 

Here's some info about Amnesty International and the Catholic Church - as for the other issue I'll look into it and see if I can find some sources for you.

 

A.I. vs. C.C. Links:

http://www.amnesty.org.au/svaw/comments/2420/

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07073102.html

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/ite..._international/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/po...hts-461358.html

 

Those links are about abortion, not contraception. Was your original claim meant to say abortion instead of contraception?

 

And I am primarily interested in your other claims, since I don't care which charity people donate to; there's a massive degree of choice in that arena.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Krezack

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Those links are about abortion, not contraception. Was your original claim meant to say abortion instead of contraception?

 

Yeah, I thought it was condom use and it was, instead, abortion. My mistake.

 

And I am primarily interested in your other claims, since I don't care which charity people donate to; there's a massive degree of choice in that arena.

 

The links are up.

[Humodour]

Care to provide some unbiased sources?

Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo: “In the case of the AIDS virus, which is around 450 times smaller than the sperm cell, the condom’s latex material obviously gives much less security... to talk of condoms as ‘safe sex’ is a form of Russian roulette.” (Source)

 

Maputo Archbishop Francisco Chimoio: "Condoms are not sure because I know that there are two countries in Europe, they are making condoms with the virus on purpose," (Source)

 

And, of course, it's official catholic church policy that contraception is immoral (Source)

 

Two Catholic priests out of how many Christian preachers in Africa? If you're trying to provide some evidence of widespread and systemic misinformation about contraception on the part of the Catholic church, you failed.

 

I also advise you to fully read the article you linked to. This one: http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=19561

 

Edit: The Vatican could do a hell of a lot more to promote safe sex and thus radically reduce HIV rates in some parts of Africa, where Catholicism is prevalent over Protestantism or Islam, but to condemn an entire religion because of this is silly. In the first place, something like 90% of Western Catholics use condoms.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Krezack

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Two Catholic priests out of how many Christian preachers in Africa?

 

I did not know Cardinals and Archbishops were just "some priests" - aren't they quite a bit more powerful and influenchal?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Two Catholic priests out of how many Christian preachers in Africa?

 

I did not know Cardinals and Archbishops were just "some priests" - aren't they quite a bit more powerful and influenchal?

 

Yes, I looked it up and they are definitely high-to-semi-high ranking.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

In the first place, something like 90% of Western Catholics use condoms.

 

So? According to their Church they are committing a sin - they have decided to use their own brains instead of being sheep.

 

EDIT: That is not to say I have a problem with Catholics, I do not, but I will admit that I am not a fan of their religion.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Cycloneman]

Two Catholic priests out of how many Christian preachers in Africa? If you're trying to provide some evidence of widespread and systemic misinformation about contraception on the part of the Catholic church, you failed.

Yeah, I mean, they're just a cardinal and archbishop, which are just the second- and third-highest offices in the main Catholic Church.

I also advise you to fully read the article you linked to. This one: http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=19561

Okay, I re-read it. Did I miss the part where the Church decided that safe sex was A-OK?

Edit: The Vatican could do a hell of a lot more to promote safe sex and thus radically reduce HIV rates in some parts of Africa, where Catholicism is prevalent over Protestantism or Islam, but to condemn an entire religion because of this is silly. In the first place, something like 90% of Western Catholics use condoms.

So? If the Catholic Church told all its members to kill themselves, would that be OK because most of them won't?

[Humodour]

Two Catholic priests out of how many Christian preachers in Africa? If you're trying to provide some evidence of widespread and systemic misinformation about contraception on the part of the Catholic church, you failed.

Yeah, I mean, they're just a cardinal and archbishop, which are just the second- and third-highest offices in the main Catholic Church.

I also advise you to fully read the article you linked to. This one: http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=19561

Okay, I re-read it. Did I miss the part where the Church decided that safe sex was A-OK?

Edit: The Vatican could do a hell of a lot more to promote safe sex and thus radically reduce HIV rates in some parts of Africa, where Catholicism is prevalent over Protestantism or Islam, but to condemn an entire religion because of this is silly. In the first place, something like 90% of Western Catholics use condoms.

So? If the Catholic Church told all its members to kill themselves, would that be OK because most of them won't?

 

a) Cardinals and Archbishops are actually fairly common. To try and pin the comments of one Cardinal and one Archbishop on all Cardinals and all Archbishops, or the Catholic Church in general, is disingenuous.

b) You missed the part where a lot of Catholics in Africa teach contraception methods.

c) I imagine it would be as dreadful as if any other church told its members to kill themselves?

[Strix]

I imagine it would be as dreadful as if any other church told its members to kill themselves?

 

Yes, it would.

[Cycloneman]

a) Cardinals and Archbishops are actually fairly common. To try and pin the comments of one Cardinal and one Archbishop on all Cardinals and all Archbishops, or the Catholic Church in general, is disingenuous.

To allow truly vile lies such as the ones propagated by such high-ranking members as Alfonso and Francisco pass without any internal action on the part of the Church represents tacit support of these statements.

[Hurlshort]

a) Cardinals and Archbishops are actually fairly common. To try and pin the comments of one Cardinal and one Archbishop on all Cardinals and all Archbishops, or the Catholic Church in general, is disingenuous.

To allow truly vile lies such as the ones propagated by such high-ranking members as Alfonso and Francisco pass without any internal action on the part of the Church represents tacit support of these statements.

 

Or it could mean the church leadership isn't willing to create a huge schism over the opinions of some officials. The catholic church is very slow to act these days so as to not cause huge waves. There are good and bad results to this strategy.

[Gorgon]

The Catholic church is on record advocating against contraception in the middle of a pandemic, they also actively argue against the safety of condoms. Technically it's true that they do not provide perfect protection, but that's just muddying the waters. It's all there is. 'Abstinence', give me a break.

 

Their ideology costs lives, unquestionably.

[Humodour]

The Catholic church is on record advocating against contraception in the middle of a pandemic, they also actively argue against the safety of condoms. Technically it's true that they do not provide perfect protection, but that's just muddying the waters. It's all there is. 'Abstinence', give me a break.

 

Their ideology costs lives, unquestionably.

 

My original intention was actually to point out that Christian churches in general do this, and singling out the Catholic church seems spiteful.

 

But then I forgot why I was posting.

[Meshugger]

I somewhat understand Morgoth's bitterness to "K