US Presidential Elections 3

[Trenitay]

^wrath: no kidding. there's a very good reason that unions only enjoy single digit percentage existence now: the general populace doesn't want them and they are all but unnecessary. why on earth do liberals in control want this when the people clearly don't

 

Can you please tell me whats so bad about unions? I've never seen anything wrong with it.

[Killian Kalthorne]

^wrath: no kidding. there's a very good reason that unions only enjoy single digit percentage existence now: the general populace doesn't want them and they are all but unnecessary. why on earth do liberals in control want this when the people clearly don't

 

Can you please tell me whats so bad about unions? I've never seen anything wrong with it.

Well, counting hourly wage and benefits the average auto-worker makes $89 USD a hour. After a full work week, that is $3560 USD, $14240 a month before taxes. There are some people who don't make that in a year. Now, that is just one employee. Now add in thousands of employees. Unions have done their share to drive up costs and made profitability for US made cars almost nonexistent.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Killian Kalthorne

[Hurlshort]

Unions are also a breeding ground for corruption and strong arm tactics. The mafia used to be very involved with the unions.

 

But I love being part of a Union.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, I for one am willing to give a little socialism a try after the bungling of capitalism with this meltdown we had. Capitalism is just as failure prone as socialism.

That's ridiculous, it's historically proven that only capitalism creates wealth and improves living standards. As taks said, this crisis is not the failure of capitalism, it's a failure of government policies and government ineptitude. Anyone who thinks we have a free economy with the government gobbling up 1/3 of gross domestic product is fooling themselves.

 

As for unions, the fundemental problem with them is they're anti-market. You should be paid because your skills are in demand, not because you coerced the employer. Card check makes this far worse because it gets rid of the secret ballot for union representation. Open ballot was used in Soviet elections, for good reason. This is a favorite tactic of the left, if you can't win a fair election, change the rules in your favor.

[Trenitay]

If your skills are in demand you should get payed. Well if your employer doesnt listen to every single one of his thousands of employees then how do you get paid. If you're one of thousands and you go up to your employer and say 'I want a raise' hes going to laugh and say bye-bye. If you are thousands banded together and your leaders go and say 'our People want raises' They are going to consider it or they are going to have their thousands of employees on strike.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If your employer doesn't listen to you, go find another employer. Someone who doesn't pay market wages won't stay in business long.

[Trenitay]

So you want every single person in a union to quit their job, Go find a new job in this economy, then companies like Boeing go out of business and we have no more airplanes or teachers. Great idea!!!

Edited November 18, 2008 by awsomeness

[Calax]

If your employer doesn't listen to you, go find another employer. Someone who doesn't pay market wages won't stay in business long.

Then explain to me why teachers are payed a pittance when the "most valuable resource in the world" is in their hands?

[Aristes]

If your employer doesn't listen to you, go find another employer. Someone who doesn't pay market wages won't stay in business long.

Then explain to me why teachers are payed a pittance when the "most valuable resource in the world" is in their hands?

 

...And yet every teacher I know is in a Union, which completes the full circle of this argument.

[Meshugger]

I do not mind the basic idea of forming a union, but it also comes with a great deal of responsibility. If one looks at history on how unions where originally formed (safety demands, vacation, 8 hour working day and so on), it looks like a natural progression of a industrial society. The key-word here is negotiation. Through negotation, the parties come to a compromise, and with a compromise there's stability in the workforce and society. I mean, it is easy to dismiss unions when one is, like me, working in an industry-sector where the expertise of the individual counts the most. But it is more difficult if one is in the construction-sector, or working as a nurse or a factoryworker.

 

With the american automakers, they make as much as head surgeon make in Finland, so something has clearly gone wrong. I blame the automakers themselves for being bad at negotiating a deal that also works in the employers favor (employers usually form unions as well). If the unions have complete control over a sector, then a stalemate is imminent. The balance has been tipped, and banning unions would only tip the scale to the other direction, making it worse for "joe sixpack".

[Calax]

I do not mind the basic idea of forming a union, but it also comes with a great deal of responsibility. If one looks at history on how unions where originally formed (safety demands, vacation, 8 hour working day and so on), it looks like a natural progression of a industrial society. The key-word here is negotiation. Through negotation, the parties come to a compromise, and with a compromise there's stability in the workforce and society. I mean, it is easy to dismiss unions when one is, like me, working in an industry-sector where the expertise of the individual counts the most. But it is more difficult if one is in the construction-sector, or working as a nurse or a factoryworker.

 

With the american automakers, they make as much as head surgeon make in Finland, so something has clearly gone wrong. I blame the automakers themselves for being bad at negotiating a deal that also works in the employers favor (employers usually form unions as well). If the unions have complete control over a sector, then a stalemate is imminent. The balance has been tipped, and banning unions would only tip the scale to the other direction, making it worse for "joe sixpack".

2 things

 

Union's aren't always a good thing. It seems like now a days the Teachers union is designed to keep the teachers from having to do work (My highschool math teacher was the Union rep for the school... she was proud that she had forced the school to literally cut down class times to the bare minimum of what the local Union had to work... and this was done in the scale of minutes). Also at a higher level it seems like the Teachers Union in particular is somewhat useless. Once a teacher gets vested or tenure or some such then they can't be kicked out for being a bad teacher. This was a problem at my highschool where my Science teacher was a drug addict (painkillers) and was also emotionally unstable. half way through my second year the school finally had enough leverage to have him forcefully retired.

 

And two: Was it Nixon who fired every union air traffic controller that was union because the union was asking for outrageous benefits and even higher pay when they were the highest paid group on the planet?

[Meshugger]

I do not mind the basic idea of forming a union, but it also comes with a great deal of responsibility. If one looks at history on how unions where originally formed (safety demands, vacation, 8 hour working day and so on), it looks like a natural progression of a industrial society. The key-word here is negotiation. Through negotation, the parties come to a compromise, and with a compromise there's stability in the workforce and society. I mean, it is easy to dismiss unions when one is, like me, working in an industry-sector where the expertise of the individual counts the most. But it is more difficult if one is in the construction-sector, or working as a nurse or a factoryworker.

 

With the american automakers, they make as much as head surgeon make in Finland, so something has clearly gone wrong. I blame the automakers themselves for being bad at negotiating a deal that also works in the employers favor (employers usually form unions as well). If the unions have complete control over a sector, then a stalemate is imminent. The balance has been tipped, and banning unions would only tip the scale to the other direction, making it worse for "joe sixpack".

2 things

 

Union's aren't always a good thing. It seems like now a days the Teachers union is designed to keep the teachers from having to do work (My highschool math teacher was the Union rep for the school... she was proud that she had forced the school to literally cut down class times to the bare minimum of what the local Union had to work... and this was done in the scale of minutes). Also at a higher level it seems like the Teachers Union in particular is somewhat useless. Once a teacher gets vested or tenure or some such then they can't be kicked out for being a bad teacher. This was a problem at my highschool where my Science teacher was a drug addict (painkillers) and was also emotionally unstable. half way through my second year the school finally had enough leverage to have him forcefully retired.

 

And two: Was it Nixon who fired every union air traffic controller that was union because the union was asking for outrageous benefits and even higher pay when they were the highest paid group on the planet?

 

Those are the negative sides of unions having too much power. Like democracy, the system isn't perfect and is still very open to abuse. Balance is the key. It seems like the employers aren't making any demands themselves, why is that?

[Aristes]

I think that was Reagan, bro, not Nixon.

[Walsingham]

I used to work in the post office as a sorting ape. The union rep was great and he kept things very clear. He would help keep us working, but had an eagle eye out for unfairness. The system worked. Years later, and after he retired he was replaced by a weak-willed cretin who couldn't keep things straight. The sorting office kept having wildcat strikes over tiny tiny infractions and imaginary slights. It was pathetic, and in the end hundreds of local businesses lost money and moved to private couriers, despite those couriers being twice the cost.

 

Unions are like booze. Glorious when treated with a glad heart, ruination when approached trhough meanness and anger.

[Calax]

From what Little I understand from my mom and former teachers the California Teachers union is one of the most powerful unions in the state and has a stranglehold on every teacher that is willing to work.

[Meshugger]

From what Little I understand from my mom and former teachers the California Teachers union is one of the most powerful unions in the state and has a stranglehold on every teacher that is willing to work.

 

That is not right. It is understandable to detest unions when they overstep their boundries.

[Trenitay]

Unions in general arent a bad thing, you're all just naming the bad ones.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Reagan fired the air traffic controllers for striking illegally, because you can't strike against the government in the US. And I'm not talking about banning unions, I'm talking about keeping union elections fair thus keeping them from vastly expanding their death grip on the economy.

[Gorgon]

What do you mean by that, the members elect their reps, whats not fair about it.

[Trenitay]

If you have a union its probably going to have a death grip, not by choice but by circumstance. Unions are necessary for the survival of many people and if they go on strike because the employers wont give them benefits or a good enough pay raise then the company loses money and the economy worsens. Without the unions a lot of these people would make a lot less money and the CEOs would make a lot more.

[Gfted1]

^Im curious, how would you justify the examples of people ridiculously overpaid. You honestly feel an autoworker is worth 89/hour?

 

Unions were necessary years ago before laws and regulations were mandated to set an hours per week limit / benefits / etc..., now they are just an anchor around the neck of any employer that has to deal with them.

[Meshugger]

^Im curious, how would you justify the examples of people ridiculously overpaid. You honestly feel an autoworker is worth 89/hour?

 

Unions were necessary years ago before laws and regulations were mandated to set an hours per week limit / benefits / etc..., now they are just an anchor around the neck of any employer that has to deal with them.

 

There is no justification for that. The fault lies entirely on the companies themselves for caving into the union's demands.

[Wrath of Dagon]

What do you mean by that, the members elect their reps, whats not fair about it.

What I'm talking about is a new law that's about to be passed, which has to do with elections on whether a workplace will be represented by a union or not. Before it was a secret ballot vote by all the employees, under Federal supervision. Under the new law union representation will only require a majority of employees to sign union cards, without having an election at all. In addition, a provision for binding arbitration means the government can set wages and working conditions in the newly unionized workplace.

[Hurlshort]

It's interesting to hear the negative comments on the teacher's unions. I'm not saying they are perfect, but they are absolutely necessary. Teaching isn't run like a business. Realistically a school district has absolutely no motivation to hire qualified teachers. They make the same amount of money no matter who is in the classroom. The performance goals just don't affect the bottom line. If a school has low test scores, the government isn't going to stop funding that school. And it shouldn't, because that's punishing the students more than anyone else.

 

The union protects teachers as they move up the salary schedule.

[Rostere]

Similar to the tripartite system of political power, the division of power between unions and employers is in place to prevent any single one of them from acting only in their own immidiate interest. No one is ever required to give in to a unions demands if they are too high, and if someone does, the members of the union themselves will suffer for it in the end (compare Prisoner's Dilemma). For society overall it is best if both sides make sound demands on wages, working hours et.c.. We can only look at history and see what has happened when the scales has tipped too much in favour of either one of them. A people without history is a people without future... or whatever.