Long rant on RPGs and comments on Obsidian

[RPGmasterBoo]

This could be the beginning of a long rant, don't say you weren't warned. But I'll try to keep it short and to the point.

 

As far as cRPG's are concerned, I'm quite sure I've seen the best the genre has to offer and very likely the best there ever will be. Those are (expectedly): Planescape Torment, Fallout games (the first being the more inspired) and the Baldur's Gate trilogy (the second being possibly the "perfect RPG"). Original additions and all around great games were also Gothic II, the Witcher and Troika's Vampire: Bloodlines. Last but not the least come KOTOR II (in its sad unfinished state) and Mask of the Betrayer which would have been much better if it was a solo game, not NWN2's expansion.

 

Now onto the main thing: yesterday I finished Bioware's Mass Effect. That's probably the reason for this whole rant. It has convinced me that Bioware is effectively dead as far as creative and original RPG's are concerned. Their games continue to sell but only the most adoring fans can shut their eyes to the the simple fact: they are making the same game third time in a row (KOTOR, Jade and now this). Similar dialogue, copy/paste characters and uninspired plot is all that's left when you strip away the purely technical excellence (not to mention the constant dumbing down of gamplay). While I consider BG II the pinnacle of computer role playing, there's no reason to to heap undeserving praise on them. Their community is perhaps at fault also, as there are far too many people who do exactly the wrong thing - demand more of the same.

 

Onto Obsidian. I've played and completed all your games, and the games you made as Interplay/Black Isle. Currenty I'm playing KOTOR II again and reading some of the character dialogue, I'm amazed at how good it is (very reminescent of Torment, but then again so was MoTB, perhaps even more so - it could hardly be much different considering the same people working on it). I arrived at the logical conclusion - you're currently the last game dev trying to offer a truly original RPG experience (+ CDProjekt, but we'll see how it goes for them).

 

I think your faults are mostly techical. To put it bluntly, your games are somewhat clunky. KOTOR II had inferior graphics compared to the first one (especially in the overall design segment), the pacing wasn’t great and not to mention that its unfinished, NWN2 wasn't very well optimized, it was buggy and story-wise it wasn't very good. MoTB was a great improvement, but some seemingly unchangeable faults remained: the feeling of confined space and linearity (I gather you are trying to rectify that with the new expansion), the somewhat bad implementation of DnD rules and the game being too easy in general. As an expansion to an above average game one could not, obviously, expect it to be perfection incarnate, but its excellent nonetheless.

 

To move away from the crticisicm, your high points are well made characters, the best I've seen since BGII/Torment. This goes for KOTOR II and MoTB. Expecially for KOTORII. Even if its completely ruined by its incomplete status the characters are simply fantastic. Also your storylines are much more interesting than anything anybody else is offering.

 

I'll try to summarize this in a few words:

+ improve the technical aspect of your games, especially graphical design (***design***, not crappy ***realism*** - think of the PS2 game Shadow of the Collossus when I say this). Realistic graphics are outdated overnight, good design lasts forever.

+ improve stability and the omnipresent bugs (how come this is always an issue wtih you???)

+ try to improve game pacing, Bioware does this very well - rip em off

+ try to work around the limitations 3D imposes on linearity and world size (hopefully it'll work out in the new exp)

+ think unique quests, one such quest is better than 5 cliched ones, we (the gamers) have seen 'em all. Too many times.

+ originality is key, dont be afraid like Bioware to drop an outdated gameplay concept if its not working out. Personally I think that NWN2 gameplay has gone as far as it will go and that it shoud be heavily modified or even scrapped, to ressurect true party based tactical gameplay. I mean an old dos rpg Realms of Arkania, had options such as splitting your party and leading two groups separately!! Today that's almost unthinkable... Look to the past for excellent (and free) solutions.

+ make games harder!! It cant be epic if it’s a pushover!

+ polish, polish, polish - always something stupid and almost irrelevant brings your games down a notch (NWN2 inventory for example)

 

I hope you're not offended as it might seem that I'm telling you what your job is. I'm not. After Troika's demise (and they tried so hard to create great games) and Biowares stagnation, you're all that's left and I wouldnt like to see you finish as either of them.

 

Damn this is loong. Oh well

[Humodour]

I disagree.

[RPGmasterBoo]

On what?

[Xard]

Krezack is just trolling

 

good rant

[kirottu]

I disagree.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Krezack is just trolling

 

good rant

 

Thanks. I think every dev will make a good game with good gamer advice. Only not everybody's capable of good advice (sounds presumptuous eh?)

 

I basically said the same thing on Bioware's forum only to be mobbed by rabid fanboys who think that KOTOR 1 is the next best thing after pre-sliced bread...

[random n00b]

I think this belongs in C&C, as it pertains to Obsidian's games specifically. It's more likely you'll be trolled *ahem*, I mean, read there.

 

*casts summon moderator*

[Humodour]

Krezack is just trolling

 

good rant

 

Thanks. I think every dev will make a good game with good gamer advice. Only not everybody's capable of good advice (sounds presumptuous eh?)

 

I basically said the same thing on Bioware's forum only to be mobbed by rabid fanboys who think that KOTOR 1 is the next best thing after pre-sliced bread...

 

Look, I just fundamentally disagree.

[Magister Lajciak]

Now onto the main thing: yesterday I finished Bioware's Mass Effect. That's probably the reason for this whole rant. It has convinced me that Bioware is effectively dead as far as creative and original RPG's are concerned. Their games continue to sell but only the most adoring fans can shut their eyes to the the simple fact: they are making the same game third time in a row (KOTOR, Jade and now this). Similar dialogue, copy/paste characters and uninspired plot is all that's left when you strip away the purely technical excellence (not to mention the constant dumbing down of gamplay). While I consider BG II the pinnacle of computer role playing, there's no reason to to heap undeserving praise on them. Their community is perhaps at fault also, as there are far too many people who do exactly the wrong thing - demand more of the same.

 

I have not played Mass Effect, partially because of the limited installs and online activations issue, but BioWare did well even post-Baldur's Gate II, at least with KOTOR. I have high confidence they will do very well again with Dragon Age (unless they ruin it with DDRM). I would not discount BioWare yet. They have lately concentrated on games that are somewhat less appealing to me than their pinnacles (BG II & KOTOR), but this is about to change again with Dragon Age. BioWare ain't dead yet!

[Magister Lajciak]

Krezack is just trolling

 

good rant

 

I basically said the same thing on Bioware's forum only to be mobbed by rabid fanboys who think that KOTOR 1 is the next best thing after pre-sliced bread...

 

Well, I do think that KOTOR 1 is an absolutely excellent game.

[Magister Lajciak]

Onto Obsidian. I've played and completed all your games, and the games you made as Interplay/Black Isle. Currenty I'm playing KOTOR II again and reading some of the character dialogue, I'm amazed at how good it is (very reminescent of Torment, but then again so was MoTB, perhaps even more so - it could hardly be much different considering the same people working on it). I arrived at the logical conclusion - you're currently the last game dev trying to offer a truly original RPG experience (+ CDProjekt, but we'll see how it goes for them).

 

I think your faults are mostly techical. To put it bluntly, your games are somewhat clunky. KOTOR II had inferior graphics compared to the first one (especially in the overall design segment), the pacing wasn

[RPGmasterBoo]

@Lajciak: Its a sound perspective but there are some things must be mentioned.

 

First, Obsidian is made of people who delivered some of the finest RPGs ever made, the fact that they did it under the name of another company is irrelevant. The core Black Isle/Interplay people were proven veterans, indeed already legends - not newbie developers. So I think your doubt was somewhat misplaced.

 

Secondly, since I criticised KOTOR I might as well say why I think the game is above average at best, and derivative rubbish at worst.

- It has forgettable and uninteresting characters, apart from HK-47, but a comic relief character can't make up for droll main characters (my personal opinion). To keep it short they are all examples of type or derivative. Bastila is Aribeth ver 2.0, and I think, they both come off as somewhat lame. Canderous, the wookie (forgot his name), Mission, the droid, Jolee Bindo, the female Jedi and Carth Onasi are all stereotyped, mercenaries, rogues or jedi. Their personal stories are boring, as are their quests (except for the Wookie but his is integral to a huge location).

- It has a bad, reused, concept as storyline. Bioware insists on (for some reason) using the idea of an ancient, extinct "creator race" or empire. It was first seen in NWN campaign, then again in KOTOR and again in Mass Effect (yes, again!). All those plots are chases for essentially irrelevant things the (stones, or tablets I dont' recall?) in NWN, the star maps in KOTOR and I wont spoil it for you in ME. Repetetivness aside, KOTOR's storyline is totally predictable, and a very simplified good vs evil tale with a sole interesting twist (Revan). This is a step down from the morally much more ambiguous BG trilogy.

- The main villain is comical.

- The game is extremely linear.

- The game is too easy.

- The gameplay is too simplistic due to console adaptation.

- The game is too short.

- The game constrains the development of the PC to two extremes, Sith or Jedi with no real choice before the player.

 

Bottom line, its an SW fan game. For them its like nirvana, but from a purely RPG perspective its not a great achievement.

 

A few of these things stand for KOTOR II as well (shortness, linearity, ease, and improved but still not incredibly in depth gameplay)

But!

- The characters are excellent, Kreia, Visas, Handmaiden and Atton in particular.

- The story demands much more participation from the player, and actually thinking about dialogue choices.

- The story is also very interesting up to the point it ceases to exist.

For me that's much more important.

One things stands thoug, KOTOR II is crippled by its non existent ending. Team Gizka will hopefully set this right.

 

In one thing you are right, KOTOR ia a more complete game, but all said and done its unambitious, derivative and plays on the SW card to cover up its weaknesses.

 

I dont doubt that Bioware has talent. But I doubt it has courage and ambition to break from what still makes cash for them. We'll see how Dragon Age plays out, but I wouldn't hold my fingers crossed.

[Pidesco]

Krezack is just trolling

 

good rant

 

Thanks. I think every dev will make a good game with good gamer advice. Only not everybody's capable of good advice (sounds presumptuous eh?)

 

I basically said the same thing on Bioware's forum only to be mobbed by rabid fanboys who think that KOTOR 1 is the next best thing after pre-sliced bread...

 

Link?

[RPGmasterBoo]

Link?

 

Sorry friend, it was some time ago and to tell you the truth I don't go there anymore, it might have been deleted and whatnot. Bioware forums are huge and confusing (to me at least). Effectively it was the same, except there was no mention of Obsidian, and much more criticism of Bioware.

[J.E. Sawyer]

As a company, I believe our biggest weaknesses have been the following:

 

* Games that are not fundamentally fun. That is, their core mechanics are not quickly enjoyable or do not have lasting value at a variety of difficulty levels.

* Characters that are not visually appealing. This doesn't mean characters that are attractive, but certainly that's part of it.

* Poor overall production values, polish, and stability. Not much to say here.

 

I think we are realistically raising the bar on all of these issues on our next two titles, though obviously the proof is in the eating of the proverbial pudding.

[Volourn]

The intiitla post is wrong. How can one claim to be a RPG fan,a nd then hold BG2 up as the pentacle of the genre when BIO's presumed 'crappy' games all have far superior role-playing in them.

 

BG2 is an awesome game; but it is not a better RPG than ME, JE, NWN, or KOTOR. And, don't get me started on BG1. And, I say that as I love BG series.

 

 

 

" Games that are not fundamentally fun. That is, their core mechanics are not quickly enjoyable or do not have lasting value at a variety of difficulty levels."

 

They're fun enough that I look forward to your next game. *shrug*

 

 

"* Characters that are not visually appealing. This doesn't mean characters that are attractive, but certainly that's part of it."

Eh. Cool enough.

 

 

"* Poor overall production values, polish, and stability. Not much to say here"

 

Maybe not perfect; but poor is too strong of a word, imo.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Volourn

[RPGmasterBoo]

As a company, I believe our biggest weaknesses have been the following:

 

* Games that are not fundamentally fun. That is, their core mechanics are not quickly enjoyable or do not have lasting value at a variety of difficulty levels.

* Characters that are not visually appealing. This doesn't mean characters that are attractive, but certainly that's part of it.

* Poor overall production values, polish, and stability. Not much to say here.

 

Well they require patience and thought and simply aren't for everybody. Its hard to marry depth and instant immersion gameplay. Only BGII had that and even it required considerable patience to get things rolling. As for difficulty levels... well that's more of an arcade game style of thing isn't it, 99% of RPG's do not have enough optional content to make them worth replaying at all, if the gamer is thorough. But the fun factor could definitely use a boost, to help your sales, and more money would help with the next two points you mention.

 

Hmm well, I found KOTOR II characters visually interesting and refreshing. This goes for MoTB as well. Graphically speaking they were not top notch at their moment of release. But what's the use of ME characters like Saren, Wrex, Liara who are graphically fantastic, dripping pixel shaders, but hopelessly shallow?? Well its true, they sell those games... but still, eye candy for eye candy's sake is a crappy compromise.

 

I wouldnt say poor. You are outdone in that segment only by Bethesda and Bioware but they swim in cash and can afford the best of everything. Here's a link to an crpg list that I made from 1998 onwards, (disregard the writing in my language, and the grades - they are from a local mag) you will find that you are always in the top... On average, third best actually. Though Bethesda and the diablo clones cater to a differnt crowd.

http://www.sk.rs/forum/attachment.php?atta...mp;d=1194452492

 

Anyway the second and third points are essentialy money and being able to hire top notch artists, programmers and so on. It all comes down to how much you are ready to compromise - make mediocre games for the average mediocre gamer and you'll be swimming in cash. Make good games for the hardcore crowd, and you'll have respect and solid sales, but never like your larger competitors...

 

At least you are working on your faults, congrats

[RPGmasterBoo]

The intiitla post is wrong. How can one claim to be a RPG fan,a nd then hold BG2 up as the pentacle of the genre when BIO's presumed 'crappy' games all have far superior role-playing in them.

 

BG2 is an awesome game; but it is not a better RPG than ME, JE, NWN, or KOTOR. And, don't get me started on BG1. And, I say that as I love BG series.

 

Sorry but this is absurd. BG2 has everything those games have and more. Even its playing time is larger than all of them combined. I think even the guys from Bioware would be shocked to hear this. You're the first person I've seen in the last 7 years who would even venture to compare NWN and JE with BGII...

[random n00b]

As a company, I believe our biggest weaknesses have been the following:

 

* Games that are not fundamentally fun. That is, their core mechanics are not quickly enjoyable or do not have lasting value at a variety of difficulty levels.

* Characters that are not visually appealing. This doesn't mean characters that are attractive, but certainly that's part of it.

* Poor overall production values, polish, and stability. Not much to say here.

It's neat that you're so open about your self-criticism. Not sure I agree with all of it, though - but you made it so you probably have a better idea, heh.

 

I don't know why you would say Obs' games aren't fundamentally fun. Indeed, I would say that they *are* fundamentally fun, with some annoyances detracting from the overall experience. K2 had essentially the same gameplay as K1 except for some horrible balance issues... which you would probably only notice if you are a rules lawyer or as anal as myself. It doesn't have the tactical depth of TOEE, but I don't think that means the game isn't as fun... simply that combat is not the focus. It's debatable whether NWN2 is better gameplay-wise than NWN, so I don't understand that either. And in both games, characters are more memorable both visually and from a writing standpoint than Bioware's counterparts, especially in MotB. Care to elaborate?

 

Can't argue with the last point, at any rate. That's probably the single worst point in your games so far... it's good to see that at least you acknowledge this.

 

 

Sorry but this is absurd. BG2 has everything those games have and more.

For one, it didn't have 3D graphics.

[Nick_i_am]

the Baldur's Gate trilogy (the second being possibly the "perfect RPG").

 

Stopped reading.

[Jaesun]

As a company, I believe our biggest weaknesses have been the following:

 

* Games that are not fundamentally fun. That is, their core mechanics are not quickly enjoyable or do not have lasting value at a variety of difficulty levels.

* Characters that are not visually appealing. This doesn't mean characters that are attractive, but certainly that's part of it.

* Poor overall production values, polish, and stability. Not much to say here.

 

I think we are realistically raising the bar on all of these issues on our next two titles, though obviously the proof is in the eating of the proverbial pudding.

 

If Mask of the Betrayer is any indication of how Obsidian is "raising the bar", it's all good. I feel it greatly improved on the visual appealing characters, and overall production value.

[Magister Lajciak]

As a company, I believe our biggest weaknesses have been the following:

 

Thanks for posting this. It is nice to see an assessment directly from a dev.

 

* Games that are not fundamentally fun. That is, their core mechanics are not quickly enjoyable or do not have lasting value at a variety of difficulty levels.

 

Well, since we are talking about core mechanics here, it is worth noting that all your games so far have been based on the d20 ruleset. KOTOR was based on d20 Star Wars ruleset and NWN2 OC plus MotB have been based on the D&D ruleset. Considering the success of this ruleset in the PnP world, one can hardly say that the core mechanics are not fun. And the new mechanics you added to (such as the Spirit Meter) were great fun too (though it is true that I saw a significant number of posts on NWN2 forums that didn't appreciate it - hopefully this will not discourage you from trying more things along those lines in the future). It is true that what works in PnP might not work in CRPGs, but I have certainly not had a problem with your games in this regard. On the other hand, perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by core mechanics... perhaps you mean something else?

 

* Characters that are not visually appealing. This doesn't mean characters that are attractive, but certainly that's part of it.

 

Nothing really sprung at me as horribly visually unappealing in your games, but you are right that characters did not visually stand out (say due to attractiveness). Yeah, I guess there is room for improvement in this regard.

 

* Poor overall production values, polish, and stability. Not much to say here.

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you here at least to begin with. Stability problems are particularly important, but the other two matter too. I have indeed experienced technical difficulties with games such as NWN 2 - they were not insurmountable, but it would have been better had they not been there of course. I think MotB, however, made great strides in overcoming not just the technical problem, but also the issue of polish.

 

I think this kind of progression with the associated initial difficulties is understandable. Regardless of the experience of the individual developers Obsidian was a new studio and needed to build a reputation as well as clout (financial and otherwise) and add more employees to be able to devote the time and resourcs necessary for polish, production values, etcetera.

 

I think we are realistically raising the bar on all of these issues on our next two titles, though obviously the proof is in the eating of the proverbial pudding.

 

Good to hear that! When you speak of the next two titles, does that include the Storm of Zehir?

[Magister Lajciak]

Having named your perception of Obsidian's games weaknesses, it would be interesting to hear what you think are their greatest strengths. I would say that story and dialogue are the two areas where Obsidian's games truly shine.

[mkreku]

Good to hear that! When you speak of the next two titles, does that include the Storm of Zehir?

No. That's an expansion, still stuck on the Neverwinter Nights 2 engine. I'm expecting Alpha Protocol and Aliens RPG to be free of such Bioware/D&D imposed limitations.

[Strix]

Sorry but this is absurd. BG2 has everything those games have and more.

For one, it didn't have 3D graphics.

 

Bah. A game could be 2d and 16-bit and still be better than the majority of modern games.