Consolidated Infinite Ammo Discussion

[Gorth]

I wonder what the rating would be for a game where you get to run around and smash baby strollers?

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

The need to find new ammo promotes the conservation of ammunition, consideration of ammo types, and scavenging. It also can promote the avoidance of enemies or the use of "non-consumable" methods of defeating enemies (e.g. CQC).

 

Which is exactly why AP sounds like it could have used finite ammo. It helps make him a rogue spy with little to no ressources and adds some strategy to getting rid of enemies... CQC, for example.

 

CQC sounds rather useless when you have an inifinite amount of ammo.

[Cycloneman]

CQC sounds rather useless when you have an inifinite amount of ammo.

Much like how syringes, hand-to-hand and fiber wire were rather useless in Hitman: Blood Money because... well... you can make your Silverballers a pair of hundred-bullet assault rifles, and it's not that hard.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

CQC sounds rather useless when you have an inifinite amount of ammo.

Much like how syringes, hand-to-hand and fiber wire were rather useless in Hitman: Blood Money because... well... you can make your Silverballers a pair of hundred-bullet assault rifles, and it's not that hard.

 

Exactly. Now matter how sweet it looks or how much more fun it is, people will instictively shoot instead.

 

Splinter Cell did it rather well. Where sneaking in is much smarter because your weapons have a very finite amount of ammo, the enemies aren't sissies and you actually need the guards to go on sometimes. I'm not saying AP should be the same, but there are a lot of different styles of gameplay that fit in the "super-spy" genre and they all have to look like valid options with none clearly better.

Edited September 9, 2008 by WILL THE ALMIGHTY

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Whew, here goes.

 

This is the point. It simplifies. Some people like it, I (instinctively) don't.

 

When I say simplifies, I mean "makes salient to the developer what is necessary to balance their game." Not having a base jump skill simplifies AP and I'd love it if we could, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say they've done wrong by not including it. It's one less feature to balance with the rest of the game, which means the features we *do* get will receive more attention. It's mostly a matter of priorities within what the game has set out to do, and I guess we differ there.

 

With finite ammo: reloading makes me check the amount of ammo still with me and consider the possibility of running out if I engage that next group of enemies.

With infinite ammo: "Stupid game, stop delaying my pray and spray, I have all the ammo in the world!!"

 

Sounds like one o them personal preference thingies to me.

 

It makes the times you get to use it feel special. If you can use it whenever, it'll just be another weapon, albeit slightly better than the last one.

 

Typically, shooters will force you into using either a specific bread & butter weapon or a specific category of weapon by ammo drops (such as assault rifle). That I can *choose* my bread & butter weapon rather than having it dictated by the drops allows me to play the game in more different ways. That I can use my precious favorite gun for that one important shot kind of pales when 95% of the gameplay hours are spent having my loadout dictated to me.

 

It's like the Bourne Conspiracy phenomenon of doing rather mundane stuff to build up the adrenaline meter and then executing the awesome takedowns. I find it enjoyable, but ultimately flawed because I spend most of the game waiting for a chance to do something cool rather than actually doing something cool.

 

It sounds like we mostly just have different philosophies regarding ammo systems in episodic mission-based gameplay, but hopefully that explains mine better.

 

Which is exactly why AP sounds like it could have used finite ammo. It helps make him a rogue spy with little to no ressources and adds some strategy to getting rid of enemies... CQC, for example.

 

CQC sounds rather useless when you have an inifinite amount of ammo.

 

Which is exactly why Obs *has* to make CQC effective in its own right (in theory). Players need a way of getting close to enemies (for example, appearing unarmed and non-threatening, sneaking up on people, darting between cover, bullet-time, etc), then once they close the distance they have to be able to incapacitate enemies effectively. Punching out every enemy in the game would probably still be a point of pride rather than efficiency, but being able to wtfpwn any lone enemy that gets close to you could still come in handy. I find myself wishing I could CQC all the time in cover shooters when the AI overruns my position or simply cowers in their own.

 

Basically, the way to balance CQC in a game with firearms is to have it be quick, effective, and to allow the player methods of closing with the enemy without getting shot. I suspect that each of these applies moreso as Thornton improves his chop socky skill. The key from a balance standpoint is that while simply shooting the enemy would work, CQC would prevent the enemy from shooting you.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Much like how syringes, hand-to-hand and fiber wire were rather useless in Hitman: Blood Money because... well... you can make your Silverballers a pair of hundred-bullet assault rifles, and it's not that hard.

That's a legitimate way to play the game, but a lot of people specifically avoid using their guns because they enjoy the challenge (and reward) of "accidents" and otherwise silent/untraceable deaths.

[Cycloneman]

Exactly. Now matter how sweet it looks or how much more fun it is, people will instictively shoot instead.

 

Splinter Cell did it rather well. Where sneaking in is much smarter because your weapons have a very finite amount of ammo, the enemies aren't sissies and you actually need the guards to go on sometimes. I'm not saying AP should be the same, but there are a lot of different styles of gameplay that fit in the "super-spy" genre and they all have to look like valid options with none clearly better.

Sorry, I must've removed it in my editing of that post; that was sarcastic. I play Hitman stealthy, and a pair of "assault rifle pistols" is no match for the dozens upon dozens of enemies you will encounter over the course of them all coming to try to kill you. And even if you manage to, the sheer wastefulness of it will cause your notoriety to rise significantly (something similar will apparently happen in this game) and make subsequent missions more difficult.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Ah.

 

Damn ye.

 

My point still stands, I guess.

[Pop]

Much like how syringes, hand-to-hand and fiber wire were rather useless in Hitman: Blood Money because... well... you can make your Silverballers a pair of hundred-bullet assault rifles, and it's not that hard.

That's a legitimate way to play the game, but a lot of people specifically avoid using their guns because they enjoy the challenge (and reward) of "accidents" and otherwise silent/untraceable deaths.

Also at higher levels of difficulty, you were penalized for not taking care to remain inconspicuous.

[Patrick K Mills]

Even being a rogue spy, it's not like bullets are hard to come by. It's not a survival horror game, the stores are still open for business.

[mkreku]

Even being a rogue spy, it's not like bullets are hard to come by. It's not a survival horror game, the stores are still open for business.

I guess you've lied your entire life in the US then? Remember that Thorton is an international superspy. In most countries you can't find bullets lying next to the cabbage at every Wal-Mart in town.

 

In Sweden, bullets are under exactly the same strict supervision as weapons. Hard to come by.

[Pop]

Also Thorton starts the game with a list of contacts. Ostensibly they would be able to hook him up with whatever he needed.

[Joseph Bulock]

Even being a rogue spy, it's not like bullets are hard to come by. It's not a survival horror game, the stores are still open for business.

I guess you've lied your entire life in the US then? Remember that Thorton is an international superspy. In most countries you can't find bullets lying next to the cabbage at every Wal-Mart in town.

 

In Sweden, bullets are under exactly the same strict supervision as weapons. Hard to come by.

 

Mike doesn't go to Sweden.

[Gorgon]

Well that's that then, plausible deniability, suspension of disbelief is saved.

 

It's Miller time !

[Gorgon]

Also, what self respecting international man of mystery would go to Sweden.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Oh dear, I hope he doesn't pass in Southern Canada. Lamest mission locale ever.

 

I mean, Nothern Canada might work, because it's all ice and snow and there could be hidden nuclear silos or something, but Southern Canada? Nooooooo.

[mkreku]

Mike doesn't go to Sweden.

I WILL DEVOTE EVER WAKING HOUR OF EVERY DAY TO MAKE SURE ALPHA PROTOCOL IS A FAILURE!!

[Tigranes]

I was kinda hoping Mike could hook up with the local metal bands and use their look as a disguise.

[Patrick K Mills]

I guess you've lied your entire life in the US then? Remember that Thorton is an international superspy.

 

Emphasis fixed.

[Rostere]

Even being a rogue spy, it's not like bullets are hard to come by. It's not a survival horror game, the stores are still open for business.

I guess you've lied your entire life in the US then? Remember that Thorton is an international superspy. In most countries you can't find bullets lying next to the cabbage at every Wal-Mart in town.

 

In Sweden, bullets are under exactly the same strict supervision as weapons. Hard to come by.

 

It's not just Sweden. In fact, I believe the US must be one of the easiest places in the world to acquire guns and ammunition.

[Gorgon]

In Hard Boiled there is this one triad soldier who looks like a Chines James Brown and cool like that. He get's it after his gun goes click. Chow Yun Fat's gun never runs out of ammo, although he reloads once in a while to provide a closeup.