The quality of combat in Bloodlines and other games

[Gorth]

Meh, I don't get the whole turn-based, real time debate. Especially if you can pause at will. That's a total red herring issue, IMHO. Even in strategy games. I used to think turn-based strategy was the only kind that made sense, then I played Europa Universalis. The issue is pacing and timing of encounters and combat, not whether or not the game stops for you or not.

Europa Universalis (III) is about as much realtime as the Infinity Engine games. I.e. not very much

[RangerSG]

Meh, I don't get the whole turn-based, real time debate. Especially if you can pause at will. That's a total red herring issue, IMHO. Even in strategy games. I used to think turn-based strategy was the only kind that made sense, then I played Europa Universalis. The issue is pacing and timing of encounters and combat, not whether or not the game stops for you or not.

Europa Universalis (III) is about as much realtime as the Infinity Engine games. I.e. not very much

 

It's Real Time enough that if you're not paying attention you can get yourself in REAL trouble real fast. Do you need more real time than that? I don't think so. That it does that without being a clickfest just makes it more delicious a system. I enjoy EU's marriage of traditional and RT strategy. And their mix of grognard and alternate history. Though I think EUIII swings too far to 'faking it.' EU2 is still the high-water mark of the series for me.

 

But that said, I agree that IE was 'barely' RT. But then, when you can pause at will and issue orders, how RT is any system? I really don't think of the NWN system as RT unless I'm playing MP and have "player pause enabled" turned off.

[poolofpoo]

I'll take whosever's word that ToEE was good, but why isn't anyone else doing it if it was possible?

 

 

coz developers thinks it lacks mass appeal, ToEE had the bestest combat of all DnD computer games released (evvar), on second place you'll find the old gold box games. Problem is that a trailer featuring this kinda combat just doesn't look very cool

[Xard]

I'll take whosever's word that ToEE was good, but why isn't anyone else doing it if it was possible?

 

 

coz developers thinks it lacks mass appeal, ToEE had the bestest combat of all DnD computer games released (evvar), on second place you'll find the old gold box games. Problem is that a trailer featuring this kinda combat just doesn't look very cool

 

lol no

 

See the difference between combat system and actual combat.

 

ToEE has best combat system*, but combat itself wasn't anything special. IWD's and BG's had easily better combat as did even Fallout 2, PS:T, NWN1 HotU and some other recent titles in some places. And that's sad remembering the awesomeness of system.

 

Troika deserves all the blame for ToEE's failure. In fact the so reverred Troika should be nailed to tree for destroying the once in a lifetime possibility to revive great TB combat in RPG's. Thanks ****ing a lot, Tim Cain

 

*though crappy interface did its best to screw it

[Llyranor]

It's too bad PC RPGs have for the most part shunned turn-based combat for years now, whereas the dumbed-down console kiddies get force-fed turn-based after turn-based RPG. Heck, they even made a genre for it.

[Xard]

It's too bad PC RPGs have for the most part shunned turn-based combat for years now, whereas the dumbed-down console kiddies get force-fed turn-based after turn-based RPG. Heck, they even made a genre for it.

 

 

Yeah, there are great jRPG's with great turn based combat systems - being jrpg doesn't equal to crappy FF7 or 8 gameplay

 

I really mean what I said about Troika and ToEE. It is entirely Troika's fault game was such POS.

 

Atari had already planned out franchise from ToEE and its engine. That's how much they trusted Troika's skill and turn based combat as great system in modern era. And yes, it means we might've got load of TB combat games merely from Atari. If ToEE had been success (and reason it wasn't had nothing to do with it being TB) we'd see nowadays a lot RPG's with turn based combat because reverred and succesful games tend to be influential, so others would've followed.

 

By screwing up ToEE they spelled doom for TB combat in mainstream CRPG's for years to come - up to this day, really.

 

Everyone claiming TB games can't be succesful in modern era obviously have intentionally or not excluded millions of people carrying their money for DS titles and jrpg's.

 

Here in Finland Silent Storm was picked by people AND critics both as GOTY (we did that for JA2 too, lol). It seems to be only America with problems to respect TB combat

[Nightshape]

American's tend to want a different experience from gaming than European audiances...

[Kelverin]

Troika deserves all the blame for ToEE's failure. In fact the so reverred Troika should be nailed to tree for destroying the once in a lifetime possibility to revive great TB combat in RPG's. Thanks ****ing a lot, Tim Cain

Did you ever finish TOEE?

 

Troika delivered what they said they would a true representation of a classic pnp game. They did blow it with their questionable decision on their part to not enhance or expand on what was written. The music and voice overs were terrible. Buggy as hell. Atari did not help much in supporting the game either.

 

The lead designer gets some of the blame, but so does the QA department, Atari not extending the release date when the game was still a buggy mess, Hasbro getting wet feet about the brothel, and children in the game......There were a few extenuating circumstances.

[Xard]

yet at the same time utterly newb team manages to make IWD1 even in clearly shorter time, game vastly superior to Troika's big title in every possible way.

 

 

Game's failure was Troika's fault just like vanilla NWN2's shortcomings were OE's fault, not Atari's

 

 

edit: heck, IWD1 team alone annihilates all excuses from Troika's part. They just sucked at designing that game.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Xard

[Kelverin]

yet at the same time utterly newb team manages to make IWD1 even in clearly shorter time, game vastly superior to Troika's big title in every possible way.

 

 

Game's failure was Troika's fault just like vanilla NWN2's shortcomings were OE's fault, not Atari's

 

 

edit: heck, IWD1 team alone annihilates all excuses from Troika's part. They just sucked at designing that game.

So did you ever finish TOEE?

[Xard]

oh, sorry

 

Is hell no firm enough answer?

[Kelverin]

oh, sorry

 

Is hell no firm enough answer?

At least you answered the question. How far did you get? Why exactly are we comparing IWD to TOEE?

 

Now if you where to compare it to IWD2 I would understand, both game had a rule change forced on them mid development (and suffered for it IMO) if I am not mistaken, but TOEE used a brand new engine, so I would cut it some slack.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Kelverin

[Hurlshort]

ToEE suffered from an unengaging storyline and an extremely steep learning curve. Where the heck were you supposed to go at level 1? I gotta blame the developers on that one.

[Xard]

I made it into Temple after Moathouse, Nulb and the beginning town. Can't remember how far though, propably not too because I was already utterly bored with game.

 

IWD2 is vastly superior game though (and I have never before heard rule change was forced in IWD2 - and I've never heard ToEE was going to use 2E before either)

 

And why should I cut it slack just because it used new engine?

Edited August 30, 2008 by Xard

[Kelverin]

IWD2 is vastly superior game though (and I have never before heard rule change was forced in IWD2 - and I've never heard ToEE was going to use 2E before either)

Never said either IWD was inferior to TOEE. As a matter of fact IWD is my 3rd favorite game. Combat was better in TOEE though and I dislike the "forced" combat in IWD2. I beleve TOEE was in development when the rule changes went from 3rd edition to 3.5.

 

And why should I cut it slack just because it used new engine?

You don't have to, but you might when comparing a game on a brand new engine to one that has had 7? games.

 

 

I made it into Temple after Moathouse, Nulb and the beginning town. Can't remember how far though, propably not too because I was already utterly bored with game.

Dont know if you caught this battle, but probably my favoite combat encounter of any game I have played

[Gromnir]

"You don't have to, but you might when comparing a game on a brand new engine to one that has had 7? games."

 

so, is easier to work with an engine you designed or to try an work with some other clown's engine? some o' the iwd guys is still 'round. maybe you can pose question to them. regardless, am doubting that the iwd guys felt much compassion for tim and co.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Kelverin]

"You don't have to, but you might when comparing a game on a brand new engine to one that has had 7? games."

 

so, is easier to work with an engine you designed or to try an work with some other clown's engine?

What the hell do I know? I am a businessman not a game developer.

some o' the iwd guys is still 'round. maybe you can pose question to them.

I would rather they concentrate on a fun, bug free games

regardless, am doubting that the iwd guys felt much compassion for tim and co.

I agree, although it might be nice to have other companies work on D&D games, have a choice plus I simply can't get enough of those. Competition is a good thing!

Edited August 30, 2008 by Kelverin

[Gorgon]

I just want to say that although Temple of Elemental Evil was a horrible game, the system wasn't the reason, hell it was the only thing that made me finish it.

[Niten_Ryu]

TOEE had two main problems. First was Atari's poor support and second was that it was based on old PnP adventure. After I finished TOEE, I was sure that PnP campaign wasn't that crappy. I mean we did have fun with it when we were kids in 80's.

 

Worst case of rose colored glasses from my part. I did read the adventure book again and it was garbage. It would need serious modifications to make it even somewhat good campaign. Yeah, in PnP DM can do that but they might as well could have done their own custom campaign.

 

"Let's see how many different type of monsters for no reason we can add to this place"

 

Well, it's Troika's fault that they chose to make game based on PnP TOEE. Bad mistake.

[Bokishi]

Bloodlines shooting combat sux

[Gromnir]

"You don't have to, but you might when comparing a game on a brand new engine to one that has had 7? games."

 

so, is easier to work with an engine you designed or to try an work with some other clown's engine?

What the hell do I know? I am a businessman not a game developer.

some o' the iwd guys is still 'round. maybe you can pose question to them.

I would rather they concentrate on a fun, bug free games

regardless, am doubting that the iwd guys felt much compassion for tim and co.

I agree, although it might be nice to have other companies work on D&D games, have a choice plus I simply can't get enough of those. Competition is a good thing!

 

 

so you question xard's comparison 'tween iwd and toee development, but truth is you honestly got no reason or basis to question such a comparrsion.

 

it would be good to see some other companies working on d&d rules... attempting to do a better crpg implementation, but so far the folks other than bio and obsidian who has been given such chances has really dropped the ball. so, as a businessman, if you is a publisher would rather have bio develop your next d&d game, or .... somebody else?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Kelverin]

so you question xard's comparison 'tween iwd and toee development, but truth is you honestly got no reason or basis to question such a comparrsion.

What was the reason for the comparison? None as far as I can tell.

so, as a businessman, if you is a publisher would rather have bio develop your next d&d game, or .... somebody else?

 

HA! Good Fun!

No I would would pick bio everyday of the week and twice on sunday.

[Gromnir]

so you question xard's comparison 'tween iwd and toee development, but truth is you honestly got no reason or basis to question such a comparrsion.

What was the reason for the comparison? None as far as I can tell.

so, as a businessman, if you is a publisher would rather have bio develop your next d&d game, or .... somebody else?

 

HA! Good Fun!

No I would would pick bio everyday of the week and twice on sunday.

 

you don't know what point o' comparison was? really? then why you argue it?

 

*shrug*

 

in any event, troika dropped the ball with toee... is too bad too, 'cause as xard points out, atari had envisioned a kinda series o' games.

 

'course iwd, a game built in less time by a largely rookie design team utilizing some other developer's engine, ended up being obsidian's greatest financial success... which is sadly the reason fergie kept coming back to the iwd well when maybe it woulda' been better to put more effort into fo3 or bg3.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[RangerSG]

xard,

 

I loved Silent Storm 2. Good game, good combat. But I don't see how it proves I have to have turn-based. Or how turn-based must be better than real-time. It's a red herring. A good combat system is a good combat system regardless of whether it's running between "rounds". And as long as pause is enabled, what's the real difference?

[Kelverin]

you don't know what point o' comparison was? really? then why you argue it?

It's a slow day and I'm bored? You questioning somebody arguing, now that's rich

in any event, troika dropped the ball with toee... is too bad too

Nobody's said anything different

'course iwd, a game built in less time by a largely rookie design team utilizing some other developer's engine, ended up being obsidian's greatest financial

HA! Good Fun!

That had nothing to do with it really, the story is what set's those two games apart. Plus the music, voice acting, production, design, art direction........