Romantic drivel

[Guest The Architect]

Well then congrats to my parents. They got it right the first time as far as a relationship went, my mum was 19 and my dad was 22. They've been together for 30 years and have never looked back. I think it's more of a problem for women of the current generation, though, since perhaps the media and show business has given women unrealistic ideas about men before they step into the relationship world?

 

And by that I mean, modern Western society has taught us that material power = success, that the more you accumulate the more you a worth, so a good looking, athletic man with high socio-economic power is seen as the ultimate prize for women, but the reality is, there are few of those like that who exist, who also happen to have the personality goods, and so when they're younger they're overlooking the far from perfect guys in pursuit of the light at the end of the tunnel, only the tunnel never ends, and when they realise that, they turn back.

Edited September 4, 2008 by The Architect

[Hell Kitty]

I'm smart, funny, good looking, honest, thoughtful, cute, sweet, and just about every good quality a person can have really. I think I might be as close to a perfect boyfriend as you can get.

 

You should have told her exactly this, that's obviously where you went wrong. Make sure you tell all future girlfriends. They'll appreciate your honesty.

[thepixiesrock]

Well then congrats to my parents. They got it right the first time as far as a relationship went, my mum was 19 and my dad was 22. They've been together for 30 years and have never looked back. I think it's more of a problem for women of the current generation, though, since perhaps the media and show business has given women unrealistic ideas about men before they step into the relationship world?

 

And by that I mean, modern Western society has taught us that material power = success, that the more you accumulate the more you a worth, so a good looking, athletic man with high socio-economic power is seen as the ultimate prize for women, but the reality is, there are few of those like that who exist, who also happen to have the personality goods, and so when they're younger they're overlooking the far from perfect guys in pursuit of the light at the end of the tunnel, only the tunnel never ends, and when they realise that, they turn back.

 

Well, my parents were together since highschool and then got divorced. I don't really think there is a problem with the current generation, or at least, it has nothing to do with the material power = success, because that's been the status quo since the begenning of the 20th century really.

[thepixiesrock]

I'm smart, funny, good looking, honest, thoughtful, cute, sweet, and just about every good quality a person can have really. I think I might be as close to a perfect boyfriend as you can get.

 

You should have told her exactly this, that's obviously where you went wrong. Make sure you tell all future girlfriends. They'll appreciate your honesty.

 

I think what really went wrong was that she still loved her ex boyfriend and it was a safer bet than me because I lived far away where as he lived really close to her. I mean, I know you are making a joke, but I still have an intense need to justify what happened in the relationship any chance I can get.

 

But yes, I think I'll take your advice. I mean, nothing else seems to work, and this is just the type of crazy scheme I need!

Edited September 4, 2008 by thepixiesrock

[qt3.14159]

I'm smart, funny, good looking, honest, thoughtful, cute, sweet, and just about every good quality a person can have really. I think I might be as close to a perfect boyfriend as you can get.

 

You should have told her exactly this, that's obviously where you went wrong. Make sure you tell all future girlfriends. They'll appreciate your honesty.

 

I think what really went wrong was that she still loved her ex boyfriend and it was a safer bet than me because I lived far away where as he lived really close to her. I mean, I know you are making a joke, but I still have an intense need to justify what happened in the relationship any chance I can get.

 

But yes, I think I'll take your advice. I mean, nothing else seems to work, and this is just the type of crazy scheme I need!

 

Just make sure you tack "modest" on the end of that chain of descriptors...

[Moatilliatta]

Pixies fullproof method to getting womenz:

 

1) Be honest about just how awesome you really are.

2) ?

3) Lots of babes.

[alanschu]

Sweet, alanschu is like a homewrecker!

 

 

Haha it's true.

[Checkpoint]

The hole she has left is very dominating in my everyday life, and it hurts terribly that she could just take that hole and stuff someone else into it, and that it apparently is standard procedure with her. Me, I can't do that, so then I need to work with myself. She doesn't seem to do that because she never looks back and so she never learns.

Theres a saying i really like, may not be wholly true:

 

A single man will be happy spending his whole life trying to achieve his goals. A married man will spend his entire life trying to achieve his wife

[thepixiesrock]

It's ok if you want to cry Schmarthy. I'm here for you. We can cry a little together.

Edited September 4, 2008 by thepixiesrock

[alanschu]

In all honesty I've been at least a lite-version of your friend's husband. I mean, I think I've painted a picture of my ex as some sort of monster when in all honesty I was far from the perfect boyfriend either. The thing is that I was very insecure during the actual relationship because it all got so intense so fast and I could never really just stop and breathe and evaluate the situation. Then she quickly got really serious about the future when I still hadn't figured out whether I was comfortable in the relationship or not. It took a breakup for me to release that pressure and then, without having to know what I felt, I realised that I did love her above everything.

 

And again, her problem is that she doesn't take the time to allow herself to digest and make any reflections of the sort. It's just head-on into the next project, so while I've realised a great many things during the time since we broke up, it feels like her head remains firmly stuck in the sand.

 

To me the tragic thing is that the husband already has his life planned out for the next 40 years. He found a job that he himself says he doesn't really like, complains about a lot, but stays in because its stable. He knows how long he need to work to be eligible for full pension (31 more years to go). The only real deviation to his plan for life is that his wife isn't keen on having babies right now, though I know he really wants them (and feels pressure from his parents to have children as well). His family bugs her for not having children, with his sister calling her vain for doing so, and his mother lecturing her about how women that wait until they are 30 and older have the most complication with their pregnancy. I know this gets on her nerves, and he does nothing about it...making me think he's okay with this and hoping she'll buckle under the pressure sooner or later. A weekend ago his parents and family randomly stopped by to visit (forcing her to suspend her plans for the weekend, but the husband can never say no to his family), and the Dad started talking about how he knew lots of women that were all "NEVER!" to having babies, that changed their minds when they got older. This after my friend told her husband that she doesn't appreciate the pressure from her parents (which, appropriately, came after I had told her that I'd kick my parents asses if they ever tried that **** with my wife).

 

I made some mistakes, in that at first, I suggested a lot of stuff to try to help her with her marriage. Then as we got closer, I started doing fun stuff with her and for her, and now I see her trying those things with her husband. So in a sense, I handicapped myself from the get go, and just gave her ideas.

 

Another tragic thing is that he has learned that all he has to do is nothing, and she'll eventually cave on the issue. Any issue. Eventually she'll feel guilty, and even though she wants a tattoo and he's adamantly against it, I doubt she ever will. A friend and her are going to Vegas in November, and the friend is all "I'm getting a tattoo" and my friend was like "me too!" and then put an apprehensive look on her face. It's talk, as I know she really wants one, but ol' hubby doesn't approve.

 

The funny thing is that the husband isn't your typical "jerk" like husband. He's a math geek to the extreme. He's chubby because he likes to eat his fast food, and isn't keen on exercise. She likes to try new things and experience life, but he doesn't. He likes solving Math problems and reading Scientific American, and discussing the LHC. She feels she's still young and wants to do so much with life before settling down, and wants to do it with him. But he wants to take the safe, boring approach to life. Sadly, she's already started to give up on some of the things she wanted to do in life.

 

 

Even though I became something inappropriate for her, as a friend (which is what we were before things became more complicated) I still look at her situation and feel bad for her. It's less of an emotionally jarring event, so in that sense I've created distance from a romantic and affectionate point of view. She invited me and my roommate over to play some board games with her, her husband, and her sister and sister's boyfriend. My roommate flaked and said no, but I still went. Appropriately, it's never awkward between my friend and I, and she has admitted that kind of confuses her, because she thinks it should be. But we played board games, and it was irritating to watch the husband tell her to get a drink. And when the radio CD player stopped playing, all he did was say "Radio radio radio radio." At least in both cases she told him to get his own drink, and to do something about the radio himself. I just think he's too socially inept to realize that he's annoying. I almost wonder if he thinks he's cute. I do worry for my friend, and I want her to be happy. But at the same time, people have to live with the choices they make...and if she wants him, she has to accept the consequences of that action. I just hope it doesn't wear her out.

 

 

 

 

Sooooo, lets be honest. Who read what I wrote the first time and figured I was a jerk? I can take it

Edited September 4, 2008 by alanschu

[thepixiesrock]

Is it difficult for you to stay friends with her? Like, I'm trying to be friends with that ex I was talking about earlier, and I really want to, because I really do like being freinds with her, but I think it's also driving me crazy, because I still love her. I guess I just don't want to let her go. We weren't freinds for a few weeks, and that sucked, and now that we are friends again, I really do enjoy just talking to her, and all that, but I can't deny that I deffinetely still have feelings for her. Laozi told me to never talk to her again and get her out of my life completely, but I don't know if I can do that. So Alan, how do you stay friends with her without going nuts?

[alanschu]

Alanschu -

 

I was that girl for a long time. Looking back on it, I think I stayed in my marriage as long as I did because I had married him against everyone's advice and I really wanted to be right about him. I wanted it to work out a lot because of those romantic notions that made me cling to something that was absolutely nightmarish. It took a long journey to finally admit how bad the relationship really was and I couldn't have gotten there without my own "homewrecker" friend. Though, honestly, I think that he helped me more by just being a good man and providing a contrast to the bastard I was married to.

 

Anyhow, I'll be the first to admit that most women have very screwed up notions when it comes to relationships until they've been through a few and learn to let go of the crappy ones. Usually they become a lot more reasonable somewhere in their mid to late twenties... (at least in my experience).

 

 

I think a lot of people are like that, men and women alike. I think it's also hard to let go of something, after you invest so much time and effort into it. The one thing I am happy about for my friend, is that she has finally admitted that she feels she does most of the work in her marriage. It was something a friend of hers (that she started talking to after her and I started to go our separate ways) was able to get her to admit. My friend said to me a long time ago that she couldn't imagine divorcing him, because the idea that she could love someone so strongly, and then want to leave him, was so hard to fathom. She felt she'd never be able to love again (though I guess her relationship with me proved otherwise haha) if that was the case.

 

For what it's worth, I tried to just be the good man. While my intentions were not really to play "homewrecker," in being there for her, we ended up getting very close.

[samm]

(This is a reply to your post from 08:56 PM)

I didn't read what you wrote the first time and thus don't think you're a jerk Maybe later I really think her husband's an ass and she's weak. From my experience with my parents, it's always akward to get involved into the difficulties of other's relationships. There's nothing one can do right in such a situation really. To not be guilty after things are over or cleared up, the only thing that was working in the situations I observed was to be neutral and offer to listen, comfort, but never to give advice. And this is tough and unsatisfying, so again: Nothing to do right...

Edited September 4, 2008 by samm

[alanschu]

Is it difficult for you to stay friends with her? Like, I'm trying to be friends with that ex I was talking about earlier, and I really want to, because I really do like being freinds with her, but I think it's also driving me crazy, because I still love her. I guess I just don't want to let her go. We weren't freinds for a few weeks, and that sucked, and now that we are friends again, I really do enjoy just talking to her, and all that, but I can't deny that I deffinetely still have feelings for her. Laozi told me to never talk to her again and get her out of my life completely, but I don't know if I can do that. So Alan, how do you stay friends with her without going nuts?

 

 

I stay friends with her because, for some reason, the way it's always been between us, is that it's not hard. I think it's because before we were romantically involved, we laid the foundation of a fantastic friendship. She appreciated my honesty from the get go, and considered it brave, so whenever there were issues between us, we'd just talk and be honest about it. We also did our best to not pressure the other person.

 

 

To be fair, from my perspective it's not completely pure. There's still a part of me that still cares for her very strongly, but I don't go into the times we spend together to win her heart or criticize her or anything. She has made her choice, and while I may not care for the husband at all, I do care for her. If she can be happy with him, I'll fully move on, but right now she is suffering, and I think that if I suddenly upped and disappeared from her life (which would be difficult. We have a lot of mutual acquaintances and play on the same sports teams), she'd feel responsible and guilty for pushing me away, and it's not something I want to put on her shoulders right now.

 

The "weird" thing is that we still talk, and while we don't hang out very much alone anymore obviously, the very few times we do, it's never weird or awkward. She admitted that was kind of confusing for her, and she didn't know what to think. So I was just honest with her, and said that if she has any reservations about the times I chat with her via email, or sports, to just let me know. If she's honest, she needn't ever worry about hurting my feelings. It's impossible. I just make sure to give her every possible outlet to tell me to piss off if I make her feel uncomfortable, or perhaps even TOO comfortable, and it confuses her.

 

 

I'll be the first to admit my friendship and relationship with her is quite atypical. We have always found it easy to talk, and I think we always will.

[alanschu]

(This is a reply to your post from 08:56 PM)

I didn't read what you wrote the first time and thus don't think you're a jerk Maybe later I really think her husband's an ass and she's weak. From my experience with my parents, it's always akward to get involved into the difficulties of other's relationships. There's nothing one can do right in such a situation really. To not be guilty after things are over or cleared up, the only thing that was working in the situations I observed was to be neutral and offer to listen, comfort, but never to give advice. And this is tough and unsatisfying, so again: Nothing to do right...

 

 

I agree, but of course I am biased. The interesting thing is, from my perspective, it really seemed like she had become a more confident individual in her time with me. She used to be selfless to a fault, but I can tell even now, she has an easier time doing the things she wants to do. When she and I got really close, I saw someone that was not afraid to do something that might make her look foolish. She said it was easy to try new stuff with me, because she knew I wouldn't judge and she never felt ashamed of failure. It was almost inspiring to see her begin that type of transformation, and it made me feel great to feel I had that type of a positive impact on her life (it also made her seem particularly attractive to me, and hence, more affectionate feelings). She grew more confident in herself, and tends to feel less guilty (I think anyways haha). It was a bit of a kick in the teeth to feel that I spent all this time helping her become this way, but in the end he gets all the reward from it (he was too busy at work, and spent much of the spring and summer not spending time with her).

[Gfted1]

Sooooo, lets be honest. Who read what I wrote the first time and figured I was a jerk? I can take it

 

*raises hand*

 

I think you were and still are a jerk wrt this matter. You may act like you've "distanced yourself" but all you've really done is lay off the direct pressure and decided to lurk in the background, hoping their relationship will fail, whispering in her ear of a "better life". IMO, if you really cared about this woman you would leave her alone and respect her decisions. The constant pointing out of her husbands deficiencies is just a poorly veiled attept to point out; "See, Im better then him. LOVE ME!". IMO, thats really low class and a good way to get your ass kicked. I dont mean any of this as a personal attack, just an outsider looking in.

[Laozi]

Laozi told me to never talk to her again and get her out of my life completely, but I don't know if I can do that.

 

 

Thats the short answer to a very complex set of circumstances you presented me with. After the whole, I'm going to get back with my ex and then it didn't work but I'm seeing someone else now and I don't want to talk about how you feel thing, it seems that she doesn't really care about you too much. I dunno, maybe she has done somethings to keep the friendship intact but it all seems like bad juju that will end making you distrustful of relationships and people's intentions.

[Checkpoint]

Sooooo, lets be honest. Who read what I wrote the first time and figured I was a jerk? I can take it

We knew that.

 

Is it difficult for you to stay friends with her? Like, I'm trying to be friends with that ex I was talking about earlier, and I really want to, because I really do like being freinds with her, but I think it's also driving me crazy, because I still love her. I guess I just don't want to let her go. We weren't freinds for a few weeks, and that sucked, and now that we are friends again, I really do enjoy just talking to her, and all that, but I can't deny that I deffinetely still have feelings for her. Laozi told me to never talk to her again and get her out of my life completely, but I don't know if I can do that. So Alan, how do you stay friends with her without going nuts?

My approach is that if it's painful just stay away, at least until you feel okay about the whole deal. I'm cutting all contact with my ex, and I don't plan on picking it up in the future. Sure, you never know, but the friend/ex of hers I talked to the other day just advised me to delete her number and forget all about her instead of making the mistake he made, which was keeping in touch with her over the years. The new relation can always be very awkward and the way my ex seems to be is that it doesn't make any difference that you're no longer together; she'll still push you around.

 

And yes, I'd cry with you anytime, Lou.

[alanschu]

Sooooo, lets be honest. Who read what I wrote the first time and figured I was a jerk? I can take it

 

*raises hand*

 

I think you were and still are a jerk wrt this matter. You may act like you've "distanced yourself" but all you've really done is lay off the direct pressure and decided to lurk in the background, hoping their relationship will fail, whispering in her ear of a "better life". IMO, if you really cared about this woman you would leave her alone and respect her decisions. The constant pointing out of her husbands deficiencies is just a poorly veiled attept to point out; "See, Im better then him. LOVE ME!". IMO, thats really low class and a good way to get your ass kicked. I dont mean any of this as a personal attack, just an outsider looking in.

 

To be clear, I don't point out her husbands deficiencies to her. I haven't mentioned anything to her about her husband since we "broke up," which is almost 3 months ago now and outside of email and sports, our interaction is limited. Believe me there are times that I wanted to...but I do check my tongue around most of my friends (I'm ranting on an internet message board, because there's anonymity and a variety of different perspectives that can be lent).

 

You have an interesting comment though, one that I conflicted myself with very much the first week or two. You say that if I really cared about her, I would leave her alone and respect her decisions. However, if I really cared about someone, would I just abandon them if I believed they were suffering? I still don't know the "right" answer to this question.

 

 

You are right that I am lurking and waiting, and I didn't find pointing out his deficiencies to be a poorly veiled attempt at anything...I figured it would be rather transparent. I tried to make this clear by admitted that I am in fact biased when I see things. It is hard to disassociate, because she did say to me that she'd feel guilty if I moved away or stopped playing on the sports teams because of all this. There is the friend part of me that wants to provide assistance when I can. There is the romantic side of me that wants her to choose me. I am very self conscious about my interactions with her though. She has said that things are very hard for her right now, compounded by the fact that it hasn't really gotten much easier for her in the 3 months.

 

"Should" I turn away when she is feeling bad and wants to talk with me? Maybe. Who's to say who should or should not do what though? If I was just a friend with her, I would never turn away. Things ARE complicated by our relationship though, however as a person it is virtually impossible for me to simply ignore her if I feel she is suffering. This type of attitude is not restricted to her, though it is more accentuated for her, because of how I feel.

 

As for getting my ass kicked, I'm not too worried about that. Even if the husband was a physical threat to me, my impression of him is he'd to be too non-confrontational about it to do anything about it.

 

 

And I don't take it as a personal attack. You spoke your mind and were honest. Good for you. I respect that. I guess it's easier on the internet to do such things, but I don't think that diminishes the fact you could have sugar coated it, but decided not to.

Edited September 4, 2008 by alanschu

[Hurlshort]

After hearing your description of the husband, I don't really see him as a bad guy. He went into the marriage expecting a certain lifestyle. They both erred if they didn't communicate about that ahead of time. The kid issue really stuck out to me, how do you now discuss that before taking your vows?

 

I'm really not one to blame you for anything here. A good relationship is built on trust. I know my wife is faithful to me. If she went behind my back, I would blame her. She would be breaking the trust. You don't have a vow to the husband.

[Guest The Architect]

Yeah well I can understand why that'd frustrate the **** out of you alanschu that a girl who adores you and vice versa is with a guy that makes her less happy with him than it does for her with you, which is an illogical decision for her to make, but yeah, don't abandon her, that'd be self centred and going against what made you so appealing to her in the first place; the fact that you were able to have an open, honest relationship to begin with.

 

And that's where I disagree with Gfted1. It doesn't sound to me at all like you're trying to give your friend a bad impression of her husband in an attempt to lure her away from him and into your arms, but I do agree that the lurking in the shadows part would be weak and cowardly. So if she continues to talk about her relationship problems with you, then don't hold back from what you think. It is unlikely by the sound of it that she'll ever leave him and go to you, but that's just too bad.

 

A sense of humour goes hand in hand with emotional honesty as the two personality characteristics women love the most and if you continue to be that kind of person, alanschu, you'll wind up with a different woman as nice as the one you have feelings for at the moment. Why do you think gay guys in general are so popular with women? Because they normally possess that quality of emotional honesty, whether as heterosexual men in general are less likely to be as emotionally honest.

 

@ Pixies, you're right, although I do believe the strength of the material power = success message is more prominent now than it used to be, and because of that women are taking longer to settle down. I believe that because I think effeminate men {which normally goes hand in hand with economic power} are more popular with women than they ever were say 20 or more years ago. And why is that? Because those types dominate show business more so than ever before.

Edited September 5, 2008 by The Architect

[Laozi]

I dunno, I've always been of the school that you never rub another man's rhubarb, and if you try to you're forthright about it.

[thepixiesrock]

Laozi told me to never talk to her again and get her out of my life completely, but I don't know if I can do that.

 

 

Thats the short answer to a very complex set of circumstances you presented me with. After the whole, I'm going to get back with my ex and then it didn't work but I'm seeing someone else now and I don't want to talk about how you feel thing, it seems that she doesn't really care about you too much. I dunno, maybe she has done somethings to keep the friendship intact but it all seems like bad juju that will end making you distrustful of relationships and people's intentions.

 

And I mean, I know it sounds really pathetic, cause I mean, this is obviously how I'm going to feel because I'm stupid, but I think she still has feelings for me but won't admit it because of the distance is too hard for her, when she can get someone closer. I think she needs it to be a physical thing as much as an emotional thing. And I don't mean just sex when I say physical, I mean like, seeing the person every day. So I mean, I know you said it was a rebound thing, and that's probably completely true. Maybe she didn't really care about me. But I can't believe that. She acted like she cared a lot, and still does act like she cares, she just doesn't want to face it. You're probably right, but I really can't let myself believe that in any way. I'm willing to acknowledge it, but I won't tell myself that it's really true, because I don't know how I'd feel if I believed it.

[alanschu]

The part I struggle with for fully distancing is the fact that this person was also my confidant. She helped me through the time when my Mom was rushed to intensive care, and offered her time and ear to me when I was struggling when she needed more surgeries.

 

I just got some bad news today, and the only person I really feel comfortable with, from a trust perspective, is her, and she is very good at reading me when I have something on my mind.

[Laozi]

And I mean, I know it sounds really pathetic, cause I mean, this is obviously how I'm going to feel because I'm stupid, but I think she still has feelings for me but won't admit it because of the distance is too hard for her, when she can get someone closer. I think she needs it to be a physical thing as much as an emotional thing. And I don't mean just sex when I say physical, I mean like, seeing the person every day. So I mean, I know you said it was a rebound thing, and that's probably completely true. Maybe she didn't really care about me. But I can't believe that. She acted like she cared a lot, and still does act like she cares, she just doesn't want to face it. You're probably right, but I really can't let myself believe that in any way. I'm willing to acknowledge it, but I won't tell myself that it's really true, because I don't know how I'd feel if I believed it.

 

 

Doesn't sound pathetic, sounds like you're just free from cynicism besides how you feel your feelings might be viewed. Nothing wrong with that.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Laozi