Russia in Georgia

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Yeah, Putin looks like he wants the country, Russia, to return to the "good old days" of the Cold War.

[Brdavs]

Man o man the british media seems to be carrying a big chip on its shoulder in regards to russia, as far as my limited browsing tells you... It`s saying quite something when the feel is you`re getting a more "balanced" story from CNN lol.

 

Must be all those exiled oligarchs and BP issues heh...

 

Or it might have something to do with the fact that Putin appears to murder his domestic critics, even on our soil. But I'm sure you'll tell me his KGB thing was 'just a phase all young men go through'?

 

Well perhaps the issue is in the West setting up and backing oligarch during the drunken yeltsin years that ran the country into the ground in the first place... or is it a coincidance that these people turned russia around as soon as they`ve thrown those oligarchs out (or as we that put them there would say "politically prosecuted them" heh). You cant deny this "KGB" has had a veery impressive run as far as an average russian & country go. Mainly at our expense.

 

 

 

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blo...27684#more27684

 

interesting blog from the other side of the fence... I payed speciall attention to the parts about post soviet collapss to the "putin era"... At some places the guys paranoia rivals that of the USA BUT its a good insight into the state of mind and the percieved reasons for it.

Explains a lot if you`re willing to keep a bit of an opened mind.

 

Yeah, Putin looks like he wants the country, Russia, to return to the "good old days" of the Cold War. pinch.gif

 

And what is wrong with that if I may ask? Fat load of good having a power monopoly has done for the world (outside siad monopoly) heh... Or are we actually starting to buy that we got a "god riven right to rule" lol?

Edited August 14, 2008 by Brdavs

[Walsingham]

What, so you're saying you don't mind extrajudicial executions, just because Putin makes the trains run on time? Do you even live in Russia? I don't see much in the way of it being turned around. Theonly thing being turned around is the military, not the lives of ordinary Russians, which is not surprising given we appear to be dealing with some kind of junta.

[Brdavs]

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/106151.pdf

 

Yanks themselves seem to be of a different oppinion, my man. The Putin popularity has good and actual basis. Russian elections are funnyly enough very likely a better reflection of the actual supprt than the so touted georgian ones were. Take a read of the stuff happened last november there. Very very little of it democratic. Yet it is not Georgias democratic standards that we`re worried about. As long as theyre on our side.

 

 

 

 

As far as supporting all their (alleged) actions go... I do as much as I support extrajudicial executions and torture in gitmo and leaders of "soveirgin nations" hanging on the end of a rope. Wont even lower myself to mention the stuff that went down in the 90s. + I`m sure BP is more than making up for its losses in Iraq lol.

 

West has been the champion of realpolitik for a long time. And I for one wont be going sanctimonious cos someomne else found the balls to do the same and whats best for their interest or atleast their citizens abroad, copying what ve`ve been doing for decades.

 

You should prolly find sources of information and viewpoints other than CNN and lately very objective BBC lol. Its got you all hyped up over the "red threath" lol.

 

Edit: no I dont live in Russia. But in central europe. Factinating that someone from there isnt worried by the reemerging evil of the Soviet Union, isnt it lol?

Edited August 14, 2008 by Brdavs

[Walsingham]

It's not surprising in the least, considering that by the sound of things you'll be one of the kind 5th columnists waving the T72 onwards.

 

I've just read the report you link to, and it is an economic report, not a political one, and I find their political analysis facile at best. Certainly there has been economic growth. But to impute this to mean the country is politically sound is just weird. China has economic growth.

 

Putin has behaved in a hyper-aggressive fashion, both domestically and externally since he came into office. Or had you forgotten Chechnya II? Litvinenko? The crushing of the free press? The hounding of Kasparov?

 

To me it sounds like more of this dangerous bollocks which has everyone siding with absolutely anyone so long as they are anti-American. I'm not fundamentalist pro-American. But I know that a hyper-aggressive regime in Russia has me worried. Poland is part of NATO, as are we, which means if Putin fancies a trot around Eastern Europe I have to ship over there and get shot at.

[Musopticon?]

Putin basically overstepped the president when ordering the troops to move into Georgia. That should tell you something about the man.

[Brdavs]

It's not surprising in the least, considering that by the sound of things you'll be one of the kind 5th columnists waving the T72 onwards.

 

I've just read the report you link to, and it is an economic report, not a political one, and I find their political analysis facile at best. Certainly there has been economic growth. But to impute this to mean the country is politically sound is just weird. China has economic growth.

 

Putin has behaved in a hyper-aggressive fashion, both domestically and externally since he came into office. Or had you forgotten Chechnya II? Litvinenko? The crushing of the free press? The hounding of Kasparov?

 

To me it sounds like more of this dangerous bollocks which has everyone siding with absolutely anyone so long as they are anti-American. I'm not fundamentalist pro-American. But I know that a hyper-aggressive regime in Russia has me worried. Poland is part of NATO, as are we, which means if Putin fancies a trot around Eastern Europe I have to ship over there and get shot at.

 

You`ve got to be kiddin me.

 

Your the one talking youre worried cos ppl are taking sides (anti-american)? for christs sake could you be any more rusofobic lol? And yes, thou arth a fundamentalistic pro-american, most on these boards can pritty much gather that heh.

 

"Hyper agressive" domestic fasion lol? The economc report indicates putin does not need to rig elections to win them wals. Twas the uber democratic (puppet) saakashvili that declared martial law and cracked down on opposition and media last year and not Putin lulz. Just cos we dont fancy the results doesnt mean Kasparov lost cos he has been opressed to the ground and KGB killed off all his voters. Russian people actually love their current government, for the silly reasons in the above mentioned report. Chechnya? Arent we all about teritorial soveirgnity? What did Georgia just try to pull if not Chechnya III heh? Hyper agressive externally? Name me one action Russia has taken beyond its borders before this thats not "alleged" to be whacking off of a mi6 agent or a western ushered oligarchs exile. Unlike the defensive nato that invaded 2 countries by now. If I were NATO (which I actually am), I`d be more worried about being shipped off to Iran at this point.

 

And the remark about me being the 5th column I resent. If I am that youre an angloamerican imperialistic neocon that has issues whith someone else joining the big stakes game again. A fine one you are to point out omnious signals from the big bad russia we should be panicking about when you selfproclaimed you never even heard of the region or the political situation in ossetia/abkhazia/georgia before. War. Gods way to teach brits and yanks geography&history eh? Then we can all moralise together once we skimmed trough wikipedia.

 

 

For crist sake, its not about being pro or anti anything. Its about common friggin sense. We`ve been expanding with puppet regiemes into an area Russia considers itsown "middle east". A balkan like area of ethnic friction at that. Excersizing 0 understanding for the region and relations there, just throwing support and arms behind a NY lawyer we picked up to performe a coup and is now (was) considering making himself king of georgia lol. All to build nato bases all around russia. Throw in a balistic shield and a forced "sui generis" in international law when it suits us here and there.

Wth did we think would happen? At some point the reinvigorated Russians were about to signal we`ve been fecking about their borders for long enough. Saakashvili, being the genious that he is in trying to emulate Miloševič (we actually support???), gave a perfect chance for that signal. They want to be treated as a power again, not as a carved up yeltsin time intoxicated puppet. So feck me, but after the past 10 years of a certian hegemony in which I`ve seen western democracies "degrade" into no better practices they frown uppon when others practice them, I`m rooting for the underdog lol. We`re all about the free market are we not. Well if I remember my theory well, a monopole is bad.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Brdavs

[Volourn]

"And what is wrong with that if I may ask?"

 

Well.. the alst Cold War certainly didn't work to Russia's advantage the last time. Afterall, the country it sued to be got cut into multiple pieces. It was so bad for them, they even changed their name from USSR to Russia. *shrug* But, hey, if they want to suffer through that again, go ahead.

[walkerguy]

At least they aren't invading Alabama, right?

 

NO! They'll go for Florida next!! Sanctuary! Sanctuary!

[Walsingham]

You're claiming Russia is the underdog? You also claim to be in favour of breaking a monopoly. Well, I see this as being about breaking the monopoly one Empire established across the majority of the 'World Island' (Europe/Asia) in the 18th and 19th centuries. A monopoly which can hardly claim to have served the conquered territories very well.

 

And don't trouble to point out the British Empire, because we GAVE away the Empire willingly after WW2 when we began to understand that liberty is a human right, and forced control degraded the nation. Instead you seem to be pushing for a return to the extinct virtues of Empire, where Russia can only have respect when it pushes people around; and the glory of that country can be measured only in its land mass! Such a metric has only one outcome - war. And believe it or not I am genuinely not keen on war. Because unlike ol' Vlad I have to fight in them.

 

I am quite prepared to admit that prior to a few weeks ago my knowledge of the Caucuses extended only to my knowledge of Stalin, and the activities of the wehrmacht. It is uncomfortable, but what is the point of debate if we cannot admit weakness?

[Volourn]

It's ok. Russia may 'get away' with their attacking Georgia; but they keep it up they'll be back where they started after the Cold War. Heck, they've already started not so subtley threatening Poland with a 'strategic preemptive nuclear strike'. But, Russia is cool, I guess. *shrug*

 

L0LZ

[Morgoth]

Poland, another pawn of the US of A. Like the rest of the EU-Brussels-dwarfs.

[Walsingham]

Dwarves?

[Xard]

Poland, another pawn of the US of A. Like the rest of the EU-Brussels-dwarfs.

 

Except one of the main reasons of EU is to reduce importance of USA

 

lol

[Brdavs]

Poland being the biggest thorn in EU operations side heh...

 

@wals: well if you`re going back to the 18th century for validation of your fobia I think we should forbid the US of holding standing armies. Cos I dont exactly remember their expansions doing many favours for the natives at the time, if you discount multiple counts of genocide that is.

And in the past ossetians and georgians voluntarily flocked to the Russian state cos it provided protection against the Turks and the Persians. So much for the "only opressors" theory heh.

btw, ever heard of Patarkatsishvili? Died this year, georgian opposition oligarch. Criticised Saakashvili imensly. Died of hear attack in London and his 12bn dollar assets got confiscated by the georgian government. Free the honest georgian democracy from russian totalitarism indeed lol.

 

 

 

 

I seriosuly think people are overestemating the fundamental difference in seeing this "cold war revival". Comunism is dead. Both as a econiomic and political system, bothh in Russia and in China. They`re playing "our" game now. Playing it well at that. The clishe of a dictaturship opressed russian and chinaman is just that at this point, a clishe. So China has a single party system and in Russia you have 1 "unnaturlly" popular option. Heck the US, champion of democracy, runs a 2 party presidential sytem of supreme executive power as of late lol. In all areas their societies have liberated to close to our standard.

 

There is no fundamental clash of civilizations anymore... Just one of partial interests. Perpetuating te commie/totalitarin threath is manipulation. And I for one ain`t buying it heh. Doesnt mean anything Russia does is right, but then again, who is the West to moralise at this point, when all they`re doing is "emulation" of our realpolitik.

[Volourn]

"runs a 2 party presidential sytem"

 

Not true. They have more than 2 parties - the other ones are simply unpopular. HUGE difference.

[Walsingham]

when all they`re doing is "emulation" of our realpolitik.

 

"our"? I thought you said you were Eastern European, not Russian.

[Rostere]

From my point of view, both Georgia and Russia are undemocratic nations ruled by warmongers. Let them blow each other to smithereens until they can elect a proper government, that's what I say. There's just this problem that one of them is much larger than the other.

[Brdavs]

when all they`re doing is "emulation" of our realpolitik.

 

"our"? I thought you said you were Eastern European, not Russian.

 

"our" Since I`m EU. Russia is the one doing the emulation

 

 

 

 

 

But to put things into perspective of our practical world as opposed to make believe ideological confrontations...

 

 

Putting aside what russians took as grave insults from the US over the last decade or so (In july (g8 summit) for instance, Bush refered to Medvedev as a "smart fellow" but sent connie to Prague to finalise the balistic defence agreement just a day before that summit... Which for the russians ammounted to a clear message that Medvedev is an idiot and the US could not care less what russia opposes or what it thinks of its international standing heh...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Putting that aside, it is mostly about energy policy.

 

It has turned out that Russia under Medvedev runned a very lively and most of all effective foreign energy policy. In july medvedev visited azarbejdzan, turkmensitan & kazahstan and managed to secure new deals musceling out western (eu&us) competitors and got assurances turkmenistani and kazahstani oil wont circumvent russian soil in tranzition to the west.

What really made a difference thoe was Gazprom (russian state oil company) making huge headways into africa. US convinced Gadafi to open up Libia for foreign investment and energy deals setting up the western companies for fat deals. However, it was Gazprom that secured a deal for any and all future energents making their way out of Libia, to mainly EU and US lol. Russians are also expanding their buisiness into Niger and coming to agreement with Algeria about joint marketing of natural gas in europe.

 

All the US&EU effort that went into especially Libia evaporated and Americans flipped their lid so to speak lol. They`ve excluded Russian companies from oil dealings in Iraq - russia previosly writing off a massive Iraqi state debt to them in anticipation of securing siad oil deals - cheeky and painful hit. Gazprom responded by a trip top Iran, securing major longterm strategic agreements about Iraninan oil/gas exports. Coincidentally (lol?) Washington promptly changed the tune and sent a message to Teheran that "washington is sworn to diplomacy" heh. Taking the battle to "eurazia" in response was really to be expected. Just not so litterary as to really start a war...

 

So all in all, Russians outplayed the US both in diplomacy and on the market. In one of the most sensitive issues on the planet. And an american "democratic" satelite starts the first war in the Caucasus in the 21st century.

Coincidance?

 

You be the judge heh...

Edited August 16, 2008 by Brdavs

[Walsingham]

ROFL. You talk about the Russians being excluded from Iraq as if it was some fiendish Amerikan plot! Have you forgotten that Russia and the 50 BILLION deal they signed with Saddam Hussein happened before the invasion? And the fact that Russia vetoed the invasion? This isn't an example of Russia getting hardd done by, it's an example of them selling out teh Iraqi people! Realpolitik be damned.

[Brdavs]

You missunderstand me thinks. Being excluded from the *post invasion* Iraq deals. The SH deals are the writeoffs of old in anticipation of further deals I was reffering to. Deals that now aint happening as a result of the global game lol. Everything I said happened in the last year tops.

 

Btw they sold them out by vetoing the invasion? Or by buying from Sadam... like I dunno, everyone, mainly west heh? Interesting concept lol...

Here is another cherry on the oil cake: one of the major factors for the Iraq invasion was rumored to be Sadams intent to no longer deal for oil in USD but in euros... being a large exporter, that`d hit USD a "wee bit" hehe.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Brdavs

[Hildegard]

ROFL. You talk about the Russians being excluded from Iraq as if it was some fiendish Amerikan plot! Have you forgotten that Russia and the 50 BILLION deal they signed with Saddam Hussein happened before the invasion? And the fact that Russia vetoed the invasion? This isn't an example of Russia getting hardd done by, it's an example of them selling out teh Iraqi people! Realpolitik be damned.

 

 

Have you forgotten that Saddam was the western ally in the war with Iran. During that period he was getting arms form all around the world, and you can thank companies from the west for helping Iraq develop Biological and Chemical weapons. US and the west sold out the people of Iraq during the first gulf war and after, but it's nothing personal, just business, it's all business, nothing but business.

[Hildegard]

It's ok. Russia may 'get away' with their attacking Georgia; but they keep it up they'll be back where they started after the Cold War. Heck, they've already started not so subtley threatening Poland with a 'strategic preemptive nuclear strike'. But, Russia is cool, I guess. *shrug*

 

L0LZ

 

 

US 'got away' with Iraq, I wonder who'll they gonna get away with next...but that's justified, because of liberty, justice, equality and other horse**** they 'stand for'...

[Morgoth]

No wonder Russia feels threatened and therefor took the initiative in the caucasus. After all, the west (USA, NATO) has shamelessly expanded into east, including former SU countries and setting up missile shields against Russia. I'd feel pretty pissed about that. Russia or China are the only countries that can offer a counter-weight to the (arrogant) West in order to create balance in the world order again.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Morgoth

[Walsingham]

So if I understand you all correctly you're saying Georgia has to just put up with being invaded because you want a counterweight to the United States?