KotoR 3: Ideas, Suggestions, Discussion, Part 25

[Darth Clumber]

Also, masks just look completely ridiculous without a hood or anything. The masks in the gammes look like they were meant to be combined with hoods.

I think they need to choose a face for Revan and the Exile because it would just be annyoing having thier faces hidden the whole time. Still have their alignment be different according to your choices, but it would be so much better if their faces were free.

[DAWUSS]

Also, masks just look completely ridiculous without a hood or anything. The masks in the gammes look like they were meant to be combined with hoods.

I think they need to choose a face for Revan and the Exile because it would just be annyoing having thier faces hidden the whole time. Still have their alignment be different according to your choices, but it would be so much better if their faces were free.

 

As long as I get to choose the face without the use of mods

[Guest The Architect]

You wouldn't confuse the players as the character would be called The Exile not Darth Nihilus. Or you could give the Exile a different mask and robes. Or you could show their faces, so long as the player gets to choose them. As far as how they're supposed to sound like goes, in KotOR we already heard glimpses of what Revan sounds like, so Revan has a set voice. There's no reason why they can't bite the bullet and do the same for the Exile. I'd rather a set voice over a set sex/alignment/face any day. If making small sacrifices results in a prettier overall picture, then so be it.

[Bass-GameMaster]

You wouldn't confuse the players as the character would be called The Exile not Darth Nihilus. Or you could give the Exile a different mask and robes. Or you could show their faces, so long as the player gets to choose them. As far as how they're supposed to sound like goes, in KotOR we already heard glimpses of what Revan sounds like, so Revan has a set voice. There's no reason why they can't bite the bullet and do the same for the Exile. I'd rather a set voice over a set sex/alignment/face any day. If making small sacrifices results in a prettier overall picture, then so be it.

 

I agree with you again.

[Rosbjerg]

I've been reading these posts for a long time and pretty much everything has been covered in the past 24 70+ pages long threads, which have kept me from contributing myself. But I'll give it a go.

 

Prolouge:

Knights of The Old Republic, the first game in the series, was somewhat an eyeopener for me into the Star Wars history and really showed me the potential in the SWs licence, which I feel have been squandered by many companies before.

 

But Bioware's games lack depth, this has always been a problem for me. Both NWN, KOTOR and the newest Mass Effect are great games, but only for so long. They are repetetive and often follow the same story arch. Generic Unknown Unique Indvidual is put in a situation where he must save the town/galaxy/universe, either by good will or selfinterest, he gatheres friends, discovers something from his own past and is betrayed either externally or internally - and usually by a friend or mentor. It's cool enough the first time, not so great the second time and a little boring the third time.

 

Obsidian Entertainment did the same in the TSL expansion. Where they differ is the fact that they true to explore the nature behind things, question the nature of the force, morality and push the players expectations. I love when game developers are trying to make you think instead of just focus on entertaining you - we can argue wether or not they succeded, but at least they tried and are still trying in their current games. Their games suffer from bugs and missing content, which is just as bad as a generic story arch. It has more potential, but if it's never fufilled...

 

If KOTOR3 is ever released, I'm not so worried about tiding up the story from the former games. It doesn't even have to be the same era. What I would like is kind of a Bioware/Obsidian hybrid. A good stable game, with a strong story. But a story that goes beyond the normal Space Drama. One that really makes us look at Star Wars in a different light.

What is the Force? - A look behind the curtain of this mythology.

Why do we Fall? - Is it invevitable for those who indulge in feelings and what are the consequences?

Impact on the Universe - Here I'm not talking about simply revisiting the Plantes you've been to and see the difference, but rather play out a part of history or shed light on some of the more unknown pages of the SWs history, make us feel that what we do in the game has something to do with the overall mythology.

Consequence of Choice - Needless to say somethings will be forced on you when you make specific choices, make sure the game will punish and reward behaviour according to the setting. Forcing people to fall to the Dark Side, if they don't stay clear of temptation, would be a daring and brave element, I'm not sure it would be well recieved or even work, but I would love to see it tried.

A more dynamic approach - Levelling is fun for sure, but it's unrealistic, with the setting, to go from level 1 to 30+ in a matter of days or weeks. Either give us fewer levels (which are harder to attain) or reward us differently. Better gear is realistic enough.

 

In the end what I want is a game that's story driven like TSL, which dares to question set beliefs. Exploring the "grey", being gritty etc.

The Star Wars universe is somewhat Good vs. Evil - and no middle ground. Which is why it's important to look at that area in between.

 

I could go on, but I think you get the jest of it.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

- Rosbjerg

[Bass-GameMaster]

I've been reading these posts for a long time and pretty much everything has been covered in the past 24 70+ pages long threads, which have kept me from contributing myself. But I'll give it a go.

 

Prolouge:

Knights of The Old Republic, the first game in the series, was somewhat an eyeopener for me into the Star Wars history and really showed me the potential in the SWs licence, which I feel have been squandered by many companies before.

 

But Bioware's games lack depth, this has always been a problem for me. Both NWN, KOTOR and the newest Mass Effect are great games, but only for so long. They are repetetive and often follow the same story arch. Generic Unknown Unique Indvidual is put in a situation where he must save the town/galaxy/universe, either by good will or selfinterest, he gatheres friends, discovers something from his own past and is betrayed either externally or internally - and usually by a friend or mentor. It's cool enough the first time, not so great the second time and a little boring the third time.

 

Obsidian Entertainment did the same in the TSL expansion. Where they differ is the fact that they true to explore the nature behind things, question the nature of the force, morality and push the players expectations. I love when game developers are trying to make you think instead of just focus on entertaining you - we can argue wether or not they succeded, but at least they tried and are still trying in their current games. Their games suffer from bugs and missing content, which is just as bad as a generic story arch. It has more potential, but if it's never fufilled...

 

If KOTOR3 is ever released, I'm not so worried about tiding up the story from the former games. It doesn't even have to be the same era. What I would like is kind of a Bioware/Obsidian hybrid. A good stable game, with a strong story. But a story that goes beyond the normal Space Drama. One that really makes us look at Star Wars in a different light.

What is the Force? - A look behind the curtain of this mythology.

Why do we Fall? - Is it invevitable for those who indulge in feelings and what are the consequences?

Impact on the Universe - Here I'm not talking about simply revisiting the Plantes you've been to and see the difference, but rather play out a part of history or shed light on some of the more unknown pages of the SWs history, make us feel that what we do in the game has something to do with the overall mythology.

Consequence of Choice - Needless to say somethings will be forced on you when you make specific choices, make sure the game will punish and reward behaviour according to the setting. Forcing people to fall to the Dark Side, if they don't stay clear of temptation, would be a daring and brave element, I'm not sure it would be well recieved or even work, but I would love to see it tried.

A more dynamic approach - Levelling is fun for sure, but it's unrealistic, with the setting, to go from level 1 to 30+ in a matter of days or weeks. Either give us fewer levels (which are harder to attain) or reward us differently. Better gear is realistic enough.

 

In the end what I want is a game that's story driven like TSL, which dares to question set beliefs. Exploring the "grey", being gritty etc.

The Star Wars universe is somewhat Good vs. Evil - and no middle ground. Which is why it's important to look at that area in between.

 

I could go on, but I think you get the jest of it.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

- Rosbjerg

 

Sounds good to me, I always thought Bioware lacked in some area's as Obsidian does.. but EA bought Bioware.. I don't see a team up happening. Im confident Obsidian can tackle it alone, but it still would be a great help if Bioware pitched in. I mean look at Mass Effect... it might not be as long lasting as the KOTOR's but it shows what you can do to an RPG on a Next Generation Console

[qt3.14159]

Rosbjerg - Very well put!

 

I especially agree with you on the part of looking deeper into the Force and the Star Wars mythos. Whatever the storyline is, I *will* be disappointed if K3 lacks the depth of TSL, which is the main reason I do NOT want Bioware to do it.

 

I started playing Mass Effect last week and while it's pretty, yes, it's just a re-hashing of KOTOR all over again... Not that it'll keep me from finishing it, of course...

[Rosbjerg]

I started playing Mass Effect last week and while it's pretty, yes, it's just a re-hashing of KOTOR all over again... Not that it'll keep me from finishing it, of course...

 

But that's the point, of course we buy their games, and probably will continue to buy their games (though some won't due to the SecureRom issues), because they are technically great games - stable, good graphics, innovative in design and approach etc. And the story is still good even if we've seen it many times before.

 

They just lack replay value. KOTOR was a bit different, because it felt somewhat deeper. But still it was a copy of NWN to a degree.

 

And Obsidian makes somewhat unstable games, don't have so great graphics (they are adequate though) - they are however innovative in their interface design as well. Their stories are fantastic, or at least the prospect and potentiel of their stories are fantastic.

Their biggest mistake imho is they're too ambitious, in what they want in their games. Making it hard for them to finish it properly. If they can keep that attitude as they grow (and I believe they will), they are gonna have a very bright future. And that's why I like them, they have massive potential.

 

But I think I would rather have another company make KOTOR3. Because sometimes it takes a new approach to make a series shine.

[Jediphile]

But that's the point, of course we buy their games, and probably will continue to buy their games (though some won't due to the SecureRom issues), because they are technically great games - stable, good graphics, innovative in design and approach etc. And the story is still good even if we've seen it many times before.

 

Rehashed stories won't continue to sell games. The plot with the amnesiac who must discover a dark past is old to say the least. I'll accept it for Bourne Identity, because - hey - that's what the Bourne Identity is, but in other instances it's very old hat.

 

Note: There is no SecureRom issue anymore, is there? I thought Bioware dropped that idea after exceedingly negative feedback.

 

And Obsidian makes somewhat unstable games, don't have so great graphics (they are adequate though) - they are however innovative in their interface design as well. Their stories are fantastic, or at least the prospect and potentiel of their stories are fantastic.

 

Unstable? I haven't played NWN2, but in TSL's case I'll chalk up to LA pushing the deadline and publishing a game that is unfinished in my book. I'd call it stable. It crashes and has bugs at points, yes, but then again, what game doesn't? Indeed, that Obsidian was able to finish TSL and make it workable in about a year is a marvel of an achievement.

 

As for the graphics, I honestly don't care that much. Nicer graphics would be, well, nice, but it's not that important to me. Besides, since LA will always be the publisher of a Star Wars game, they could just cash out for a nice graphics engine, if it's really that important.

 

But I think I would rather have another company make KOTOR3. Because sometimes it takes a new approach to make a series shine.

 

I disagree. TSL left a big plot hanging. It was deliberate and would have worked, were it not for all the cut content, but still... we need closure to that. Exploring consequences of choices would be good, though. The best option there is probably Revan's fall, since it took place before the first game outside the player's control and so is a fact regardless of choices. If the plot takes us on a guided tour of how Revan's choices are the reason for the Republic's seemingly inevitable demise at the hands of the True Sith and why, for example, that would be pretty good, if you ask me.

[babydol]

Perfect world would see Obsidian doing it. With all the time and money they need.

[DAWUSS]

Obsidian could always take their storyline for K3, take out the Star Wars element, and apply it to one of their in-house IPs.

 

 

A "what-would-have-been KOTOR III", so to speak.

[Jediphile]

Obsidian could always take their storyline for K3, take out the Star Wars element, and apply it to one of their in-house IPs.

 

 

A "what-would-have-been KOTOR III", so to speak.

 

With lightsabers, starships, and a plot continued from a game that is then said not to exist. Uh-huh...

[Rosbjerg]

And Obsidian makes somewhat unstable games, don't have so great graphics (they are adequate though) - they are however innovative in their interface design as well. Their stories are fantastic, or at least the prospect and potentiel of their stories are fantastic.

 

Unstable? I haven't played NWN2, but in TSL's case I'll chalk up to LA pushing the deadline and publishing a game that is unfinished in my book. I'd call it stable. It crashes and has bugs at points, yes, but then again, what game doesn't? Indeed, that Obsidian was able to finish TSL and make it workable in about a year is a marvel of an achievement.

 

As for the graphics, I honestly don't care that much. Nicer graphics would be, well, nice, but it's not that important to me. Besides, since LA will always be the publisher of a Star Wars game, they could just cash out for a nice graphics engine, if it's really that important.

 

NWN 2 had problems, it had glitches even after alot of patches and TSL still does. I've never had either game crash on me though, but I hear that's a problem for some users. I had alot of wierd problems with NWN2 which made me stop playing the game entirely, half way through, I only picked it up again because I hate unfinished buisness.

 

So granted, in my personal experience Obsidian makes ok stable games save some quite annoying glitches, but judging from what people have posted here, there are issues with stability.

 

And while it's true that LA is the main reason for the cut content and some of the stability issues as well, I still have to place some of the blame on Obsidian - even if I don't want too, they made the game after all.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of this company and will buy anything they release. I mean, I'm spending some of my time moderating here for free! But that doesn't mean I'm gonna be blind to the obvious problems staring me in the face. I do believe it's a temporary problem though, which they'll adress as they get more experience and grow as a company.

 

And because they need to grow and develop their own IPs, I think they should stay away from KOTOR3, for their own sake. Otherwise they are gonna be that "Knights of The Old Republic Company"

[DAWUSS]

Obsidian could always take their storyline for K3, take out the Star Wars element, and apply it to one of their in-house IPs.

 

 

A "what-would-have-been KOTOR III", so to speak.

 

With lightsabers, starships, and a plot continued from a game that is then said not to exist. Uh-huh...

 

 

Swing and a miss.

[Bass-GameMaster]

that's odd rosberg... Obsidian actually excelled in the categories you listed , they just need help on plot and story which Is what bios good at

[walkerguy]

From what I hear, Bioware is not good at plots and stories.

[Calax]

From what I hear, Bioware is not good at plots and stories.

actually they're fantastic at certain types of stories and seem scared of jumping out from the comfort (and $$$) zone.

[Jediphile]

that's odd rosberg... Obsidian actually excelled in the categories you listed , they just need help on plot and story which Is what bios good at

 

The problem is that Bioware tells pretty much the same plot every time. They may do it well, but how long can you stand that? Unless, of course, you don't care about plot and just want nice graphics and cool gadgets in the game.

 

TSL may have been bugged over severely and suffer criminally from cut content, but the plot was much, much deeper and original that Bioware's was in the first game, which was basically a retelling of the original trilogy with the mandatory Bioware "I have forgotte my dark, evil past and must confront it"-plot thrown into the mix. But like I said, they did it well... except for just about the cheesiest villain I've yet seen in a computer game. I mean, just listen to Malak's laugh

[Darth_Sunnyboy]

Repsekting your honesty Rosbjerg=o)

[walkerguy]

Malak's voice wasn't too bad but the laugh was ridiculous. What I meant by "From what I hear, Bioware is not good at plots and stories" is that people keep saying Bio just rehashes. So, rephrase: From what I hear, Bioware is not good at new and original plots and stories.

[Pifon]

I listen that the BioWare is working with the game... moreover, that KOTOR 3 will be MMO RPG... Is it true?

Edited June 14, 2008 by Pifon

[walkerguy]

I hope they do not make an MMO. Since they've already ignored us and made The Force Unleashed, the least they can do is be sure to create an RPG. They probably want extra cash if they're truly considering an MMO format. Then again, if they wanted cash they'd had started making K3 a long time ago.

 

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=48932

According to this thread, a great majority of people want an RPG.

 

And about Bioware, quoting the good Jediphile:

 

This is the same source that we heard the other day which attributed a KotOR MMO to a collaboration between LA and Bioware. Hence I don't believe it, since LA has already denied that. Yes, they are working on something with Bioware, but it has nothing to do with KotOR.

 

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/852/852342p1.html

 

Bioware is not working on K3 unless they are making a completely direct lie.

 

"Yes, we [Lucas Arts] are working with BioWare. We've announced that we're working with the developer on a project, but it has nothing to do with Knights of the Old Republic."

Edited June 14, 2008 by walkerguy

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I listen that the BioWare is working with the game... moreover, that KOTOR 3 will be MMO RPG... Is it true?

 

Most likely, no.

Edited June 14, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Pifon]

hm... but why Obsidian does not create the third part of game? Why they can't complite this great project?

And what does Obsidian say about it?

[walkerguy]

Well right now Obsidian says that they're too busy, which they are.