Thoughts on Mandatory Combat

[kefka]

Koriban was amzing. Taris was very vanila though it was the only place that let you play the character class you chose at the start , so it has that in its favour.

Yeah, that's true, but most people level up after Taris to gain more Jedi levels. They must not like their class...

In fact, that might be a good thing for the sequel - don't allow people to store their levels. I do it myself and feel like I'm cheating.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I don't insist on asking you anything. You started this whole discussion with your reply to my original post. I was just making a general comment.

 

Your general comment read that Bioware should keep doing what they're doing, instead of, quote, "please a small minority of hardcore gamers". My reply didn't started this whole discussion, because it wasn't meant to. My reply only pointed out that pleasing hardcore gamers was not what was at stake, and wasn't Tri's, nor my, point.

 

Yeah, but what if you don't like those improvements?

 

Point out what i don't like, why, and what i think should be done. How they would take and handle the criticism, however, would be left to themselves.

 

Also, depends on what kinds of improvements we'd be talking about. In this case, having more alternatives to combat instead of making it mandatory in many instances would be an improvement for a CRPG.

 

You know, I guess this is where people are different. I thought Taris was boring as hell. Korriban was a much better example of what I liked. Horses for courses.

 

Like Tri pointed out, Taris had some elements which allowed for a more varied gameplay section, and that is true, regardless of how much some people liked it or disliked it.

 

Well, it wouldn't make you hardcore but it would mean that you're in the minority, and that's almost the same thing when it comes to influencing Bioware.

 

Yes, well, being in a minority isn't really a surprise or a setback to me, and influencing Bioware isn't something i'm after. At best, i can only give comments and advice, and like i said, they can take it as they wish. I dislike some things they've done in their games, and have no problem with telling it to them. They have their thing going, and they'll likely keep doing it, regardless of what i, or anyone else, will say.

[Spook]

To Volourn about pacifism in FO/FO2.

 

If you set out to be it, you could be a pacifist and sneak or talk people down in FO. Never managed to talk down the president in FO2, but otherwise I could sthelth/talk my way though most things in the game except random encounters (which you could avoid if you ran to edge of encounter fast enough, if I remember it right). Though with a few NPC it is usualy easier to gun your way though random encounters.

 

Some none figher optional ways to finish the game would be nice if they are making a CRPG.

[Volourn]

*ignores Spook*

 

Tri, you also seem to forget that NWN is selling at a quicker pace than BG1, or BG2 at least that's what was said last time the issue was brought up.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It wasn't, but he's just a jerk-off. My point was always to remove pointless/redudant/frivolous filler, which serves no other purpose but to waste time. I think PS:T was even flawed in this respect since, they would have thugs attack YOU and nobody else for no specific reason. It was just stupid.

 

Like I said Taris was good. The use of droids, cameras and defense systems was great. If only that would have continued for the entire game, and not just the first 25% of it. The rest reminded me more of IWD, with more puzzles and dialogue. All levels very linear with pointless combat.

Your point was this right.

 

I (tri critical) dont like to fight therefore the game should be tailored to my needs. I want some way to avoid everything I find unpleasent in a game and I dont care if its in the slightest bit appropriate to the NPCs either because their only purpose is to power my ego trip. Was I close ?

 

Well guess what grow up and deal with it. If you dont want the game dont buy it , your perogative.

 

Those are the situations your character is faced with. He can always curl up into a ball or become an alcoholic. But its a real world out there and its your characters job to deal with that just like you presumabley deal with the real world.

[tripleRRR]

Back to the original topic...

 

 

I think some combat should be mandatory in a fantasy or sci-fi RPG.

 

But I would like most of it in optional side quests, for example you are contacted by the city guard to stop muggings in a district, you go to the district and on the way are waylaid by a couple of the muggers and you must drive them off, etc.

 

I feel that scenarios such as this make a game more realistic while keeping combat in optional quests that do not force people to do in order to continue the story.

 

Of course the option of combat is given to characters in the main story, but offers options to either talk your way past it, sneak past, or find another alternate solution.

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

TripleRRR

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yeah, that's true, but most people level up after Taris to gain more Jedi levels. They must not like their class...

In fact, that might be a good thing for the sequel - don't allow people to store their levels. I do it myself and feel like I'm cheating.

I didnt even know I was going to end up a Jedi Rented the game and it didnt come with any instructions so I knew very little about it which you can usually tell from reading the manual.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I don't presume to speak on Tri's behalf, but no, that wasn't his point. His main concern in the topic was about ways to reduce mandatory combat, not a way to avoid anything he disliked. In fact, Tri likes combat, otherwise he wouldn't have defended aspects of ToEE and Wizardry 8 in the past. Like me, i think, he just doesn't agree that mandatory combat is the right way to go, and that there are varied and valid possibilities to make it happen.

 

In another news, i wonder how much combat-centric KoTOR would've been if not developed with consoles primrily in mind. That's one of the downfalls of console RPGs, too much combat. I have little doubt that, if KoTOR were a PC-only title, we'd have seen something between the BG series and NWN.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I don't presume to speak on Tri's behalf, but no, that wasn't his point. His main concern in the topic was about ways to reduce mandatory combat, not a way to avoid anything he disliked.

Well he was the one who typed it. Not the smartest move to type something you dont stand behind.

 

I dont care as long as.

 

1. The NPCs motivations are taken into account.

2. Not every room has a ventilation shaft just large enough to crawl through or something equally ridiculous.

3. It dosnt become a case of oops missed my stealth/speech roll better reload.

 

The integrity of the gameworld is far more important than Tri C's ideas for avoiding things he dosnt like and will always be so. Unless of course your a power gamer like he is. Which would be kinda ironic considering your name.

[triCritical]

Well he was the one who typed it. Not the smartest move to type something you dont stand behind.

Actually you typed it, and then gave me credit for it.

 

I (tri critical) dont like to fight therefore the game should be tailored to my needs. I want some way to avoid everything I find unpleasent in a game and I dont care if its in the slightest bit appropriate to the NPCs either because their only purpose is to power my ego trip. Was I close ?

 

For the record, I am pretty much a combat gamer. My favorite CRPG in probably the last year has been Silent Storm. However, KotOR's combat is,

 

1) not the what KotOR does best

2) seems secondary to the exploratory/adventuring aspect of the game

3) does not allows non combat oriented characters in late stages of the game to really exercise their skills.

 

So IMO there is no need for the mandatory filler.

 

Of course you can continue to twist my words and write down things you said and put my name on it. But that is because you're low class.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Actually you typed it, and then gave me credit for it.

 

For the record, I am pretty much a combat gamer. My favorite CRPG in probably the last year has been Silent Storm. However, KotOR's combat is,

 

1) not the what KotOR does best

2) seems secondary to the exploratory/adventuring aspect of the game

3) does not allows non combat oriented characters in late stages of the game to really exercise their skills.

 

So IMO there is no need for the mandatory filler.

 

Of course you can continue to twist my words and write down things you said and put my name on it. But that is because you're low class.

Do I really have to go back and dig out the quote from your post ?

 

Silent Storm isnt an RPG which is not suprising as you really dont seem to know what roleplaying is outside of statistics.

 

1. Really the cinematic combat is one of the most lauded features of KOTOR. Just not by "hardcore" gamers.

2. If you say so though what you think hardly seems worth anything except to you.

3. The StarForge isnt a place for tea and biscuits.

 

What you have repeatedly failed to do is show how you could realistically talk your way through the StarForge. Or any other situation that has a party who dosnt give a monkeys what you have to say.

 

The StarForge is interesting because you really get to flex your Jedi muscles. Especially if you take the other two along and toss Sith around like rag dolls.

 

You wrote It I pulled it from your post and put the "" round it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

OMG you are so stupid, lets try this again.

[triCritical]

Silent Storm isnt an RPG which is not suprising as you really dont seem to know what roleplaying is outside of statistics.

The first sentence on Nivel's Silent Storm website is,

 

Silent Storm is a true 3D game combining turn-based tactical combats and role-playing set against the background of the WWII.

 

Jeezus I just got in an argument with role-player saying Wiz8 wasn't a CRPG. I guess I don't like CRPG's because only the developers and I think they are CRPG's. Whatever...

 

1. Really the cinematic combat is one of the most lauded features of KOTOR. Just not by "hardcore" gamers. 

 

I like playing not watching.

 

2. If you say so though what you think hardly seems worth anything except to you.

 

A lot of people I have talked think this as well.

 

3. The StarForge isnt a place for tea and biscuits.

 

That is one location. What about every other location after Taris, you putz?

 

What you have repeatedly failed to do is show how you could realistically talk your way through the StarForge. Or any other situation that has a party who dosnt give a monkeys what you have to say

 

I am sorry, I have to call you a little doggie again. Because your chasing your tail again doggie.

 

Listen doggie,

 

I never said you should be able to talk your way through KotOR 2

 

Will the little doggie finally understand in bold? This is what happens when the english make the dummies stop going to school when they can't pass their test. They forget to learn how to read. How many friggin times am I going to have to tell the doggie, that I do not think there should be a pacifistic path through KotOR2.

 

When will the little doggie learn that I said, an option to remove the mandatory dull combat, for non combat oriented character would be a good idea. Does the little doggie understand that? Now go chase your tail some more, you moron.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The first sentence on Nivel's Silent Storm website is,

 

Jeezus I just got in an argument with role-player saying Wiz8 wasn't a CRPG.  I guess I don't like CRPG's because only the developers and I think they are CRPG's.  Whatever...

 

I like playing not watching.

 

A lot of people I have talked think this as well.

 

That is one location.  What about every other location after Taris, you putz?

 

What you have repeatedly failed to do is show how you could realistically talk your way through the StarForge. Or any other situation that has a party who dosnt give a monkeys what you have to say

 

I am sorry, I have to call you a little doggie again. Because your chasing your tail again doggie.

 

Listen doggie,

 

I never said you should be able to talk your way through KotOR 2

 

Will the little doggie finally understand in bold? This is what happens when the english make the dummies stop going to school when they can't pass their test. They forget to learn how to read. How many friggin times am I going to have to tell the doggie, that I do not think there should be a pacifistic path through KotOR2.

 

When will the little doggie learn that I said, an option to remove the mandatory dull combat, for non combat oriented character would be a good idea. Does the little doggie understand that? Now go chase your tail some more, you moron.

So ? Still dosnt disprove my statement in any way.

 

irrelevent . Its still one of KOTORs most lauded features.

 

If you say so though given your level of confusion and not even being able to remember what you have typed they may well be imaginary people.

 

Korriban has plenty of opportunities for talking as does Dantooine, Malon and Tatooine.

 

Your whinging because you cant talk the fanatical Sith who pop up to not kill you ?

 

And when will you get a clue ?

 

Hard combat, no problem just talk your way through it. Congrats on removing any challenge from the game. Because talking/sneaking are all one roll resolutions.

 

Your not thinking through the consequences of allowing people to chat or sneak their way through every encounter. Which is what you have said on repeated occasions although you cant seem to make up your mind.

 

As long as the integrity of the world is maintained its your job as a roleplayer to work within it. If combat is heavy going, what sort of effect does that have on your character. Your character would have to be pretty sick and twisted to take pleasure in killing other sentient being even if they have no choice but to do so. In fact to do so would be to send the character on an express trip to the dark side.

 

But you would rather look for the easy way out it seems and avoid anything at all arduous for your poor little grouping of statistics.

[kefka]

an option to remove the mandatory dull combat, for non combat oriented character would be a good idea.

Is the combat really dull? I'm trying to think of a situation where it is and I can't. It's exactly what I'd expect Star Wars combat to be like - cinematic. The only enemies that force you into battle are those that you'd expect to, either because they're hostile to begin with or simply can't be reasoned with, like Malak and the Sith.

 

There are many occasions in KotOR when a non-violent solution is possible. You can avoid (or create) so many fights by talking that you can almost play a diplomatic character. Take the family feud on Dantooine, you can solve all their problems and send them merrily on their way, or you can be evil (like me) and get them to kill each other.

 

In fact, I'm surprised at just how many chances you have to talk. Naturally, the results of your diplomacy might have unwanted side-effects, for example; the 2 Rakata settlements on the Unknown World. Siding with one group forces you to kill the other. A peaceful solution would've been nice but it's reasonable to expect a belligerent tribe not wanting to talk.

 

You can double cross the Sith, betray people you've made a deal with, or even turn one darkside NPC back to the light.. all by talking. Combat is not quite as mandatory as you make it sound.

[kefka]

Another great example of combat avoidance is the Sand People. This quest, which is necessary to complete Tatooine, allows a peaceful solution. Even though I play darkside I always talk to these guys, otherwise I'd be helping Czerka corporation eradicate them, and I don't like Czerka. You even sneak your way to their enclave by wearing Sand People robes. Combat is hardly mandatory with options like these. I think most situations give you at least a shot at diplomacy. The only problem is that your enemies don't want to talk.

[Volourn]

Kefka, you must realize, that Tri despises the IE/NWN/KOTOR style of pause n play that BIO specializes in. In fact, BG1 which he does like, he basically likes because it has empty screens that you can explore freely in spite of the combat. He just doesn't like kind of conmbat yet he continues to buy games that feature it..

 

Plus, in Tri's mind... turn base combat = role-playing

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Plus, in Tri's mind... turn base combat = role-playing

Where did he say this?

[Volourn]

He's been saying it for a good year!

[triCritical]

He's been saying it for a good year!

Well IMO Morrowind and PS:T are decent roleplaying games, and a lot more so then anything Bioware's ever made. So I guess you're wrong. But that would not be new.

 

As for BG1, I liked the open areas, but I also liked the exploratory nature of the game as well, and I really don't think the combat was that bad, partly because IMO it was fairly tactical (edit: not really) in a RTS/WC3 sorta way and the low level combat was interesting. I did not feel the same love for BG2 combat because in that game everything was a lot more routine, and just like in KotOR became redundant. I also liked the atmosphere in BG1, and the fact that although it was not non-linear it was more non-linear then any other game Bioware's made. Furthermore, I like BG1 more in hindsight, then I did at the time.

 

Gosh, its as if people can't even express their opinions anymore, without getting bombarded with whores like Shadowputz.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

As for BG1, I liked the open areas, but I also liked the exploratory nature of the game as well, and I really don't think the combat was that bad, partly because IMO it was fairly tactical (edit:  not really)  in a RTS/WC3 sorta way and the low level combat was interesting.  I did not feel the same love for BG2 combat because in that game everything was a lot more routine, and just like in KotOR became redundant.  I also liked the atmosphere in BG1, and the fact that although it was not non-linear it was more non-linear then any other game Bioware's made.  Furthermore, I like BG1 more in hindsight, then I did at the time.

 

Gosh, its as if people can't even express their opinions anymore, without getting bombarded with whores like Shadowputz.

I'm still waiting for that appology or are you going to prove your the low class punk you accused me of being ?

 

You expressed your opinion I expressed mine. Mine just happens to be more well thought out and have basis beyond my own personal preferences.

[AlanC9]

Well since this is only getting worse since the time of BG, you said it yourself, maybe that explains Bio's success. In any case, it doesn't make much sense regardless to deviate from your most successful title.

 

Still adding choices and options in CRPG's is never bad design.

Even if their bestseller turns out to be NWN? Bio's sales projections seem to make that probable (though the BG games will still be more profitable, given NWN's development history). Of course, that's based on Bio staff chatter - I don't have the numbers to back it up.

 

 

And adding choices in RPGs can be bad design -- if you cut something out that people value more. Sure, all things being equal, more choice is good. But all things are never equal.

[triCritical]

Even if their bestseller turns out to be NWN? Bio's sales projections seem to make that probable (though the BG games will still be more profitable, given NWN's development history). Of course, that's based on Bio staff chatter - I don't have the numbers to back it up.

 

 

And adding choices in RPGs can be bad design -- if you cut something out that people value more. Sure, all things being equal, more choice is good. But all things are never equal.

Not to argue semantics, but BG1 was not made in a week. One of the main reasons I don't like BG to ToEE comparisons. BG1 was in development for over 3 years, and they had a working engine when they shipped the idea to IPLY. That is not to say that the budget was anywhere near NWN's, which was monumental. But IMO it was a pretty good game because all that time was spent on making a game. NWN the majority of time was spent on peripheals to the game, at an enormous cost, it just doesn't make sense logistically. But your totally right, I doubt NWN will ever turn the profit BG1 did, especially since they are continually maintaining it, allegedly out of their own pockets.

 

An other thing to consider is that BG aged well, where as NWN IMO already looks really old.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

And adding choices in RPGs can be bad design -- if you cut something out that people value more. Sure, all things being equal, more choice is good. But all things are never equal.

Choices like that require a very grey world.

 

The best example of a totally open game I can think of is DXII. not only could you change employers on a whim, even working for both sides at the same time if you wanted to. You also had something like 5 different endings.

 

But what made it really open is you never HAD to do anything because nothing was rewarded by experience points. Everything you did ,well it was really upto you.

 

Like when you rescue the helicopter pilot go in and kill everyone in sight, or like I did sneak around and tranq them. Either way it dosnt make any difference whatsoever to how the organisation treats you.

 

You still have to fight but you have a range of options and weapons so you can either be very upfront about it, or totally sneaky so they never even see it coming.

 

The idea that the designer somehow owes it to the player to be able to bypass anything they feel is somewhat bothersome, well that just makes me laugh.

[Volourn]

Huh?NWN has aged well. So well, I'm still playing it and it still looks reasonably good aside from the blocky look. I no longer play BG when I see screenshots of it I say "TOEE clone".