Light or Dark?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

you have 5 posts and you call someone a padawn, sith arrogence must really be getting out of hand this days.

 

haha . so true

 

You both consider yourselves to be someone who has five postings - pitiful. Just look at Shadowplay, he, or she, only has fourteen...

[shadowplay107]

you have 5 posts and you call someone a padawn, sith arrogence must really be getting out of hand this days.

 

haha . so true

 

You both consider yourselves to be someone who has five postings - pitiful. Just look at Shadowplay, he, or she, only has fourteen...

 

thats he and this is my topic and my most are my questions

[thenohoper]

I think most 'normal' people would take the grey route - the Jedi are too aloof, and their suppression of all emotion is something which comes across as alienating. My personal faves are Qui-Gon and Jolee - both mavericks, both considered grey, but far more genuine as people than many of the ivory tower Jedi who stick to the code and the council as mantra. Jolee walks the balance between the two sides very easily indeed - there is no malice or risk of falling in him, but plenty of emotion.

 

Of course, if the choice is simply between the two, then it's LS every time. Helping people is a much more natural urge than destroying them, and more rewarding as well - DS can lead only to domination, and even if you got to the very top your reign would not be peaceful, as that is the nature of the beast. You'd have to be inhuman to cope with your actions, and that isn't really a price worth paying.

[JediMasterAltena]

I think most 'normal' people would take the grey route - the Jedi are too aloof, and their suppression of all emotion is something which comes across as alienating. My personal faves are Qui-Gon and Jolee - both mavericks, both considered grey, but far more genuine as people than many of the ivory tower Jedi who stick to the code and the council as mantra. Jolee walks the balance between the two sides very easily indeed - there is no malice or risk of falling in him, but plenty of emotion.

 

Of course, if the choice is simply between the two, then it's LS every time. Helping people is a much more natural urge than destroying them, and more rewarding as well - DS can lead only to domination, and even if you got to the very top your reign would not be peaceful, as that is the nature of the beast. You'd have to be inhuman to cope with your actions, and that isn't really a price worth paying.

 

Jolee wasen't gray, if he was he wouldn't have turned on you if you choose the dark side. as a "supposed" gray jedi wouldn't care. the fact that he choose to fight when you turned to the dark side, pretty much proves he was a Light sider in a sheep's clothing.

[shadowplay107]

jolee was naturally LS but he was annoyed at the fact of only doing good and trying to do just that so he decided to just let nature do what it must and only if the DS intervened then he would too.

[thenohoper]

Yes, I know - Jolee is good, just as I believe Canderous is at the end if you play LS, and the game is simply a bit too inflexible. But he is certainly more towards 'grey' than your archetypal Jedi - and his outlook on life is much closer to how I think most other people's would be.

[Doros]

Yes, I know - Jolee is good, just as I believe Canderous is at the end if you play LS, and the game is simply a bit too inflexible. But he is certainly more towards 'grey' than your archetypal Jedi - and his outlook on life is much closer to how I think most other people's would be.

 

If by "good" you mean "Dark Sided", then yes, Canderous is good in the LS end as well. Canderous is a fine Mandelorian- he values martial prowess and violence above all else. As he says in the DS ending "You are Revan, and I would follow you anywhere!" It's not abstract systems of ethics he's concerned about, it's simply looking out for his own self-interest by following a military genius. The same goes for HK. You don't honestly think HK is just another namby-pamby goody two shoes, like Luke Skywalker or Jar Jar Binks, do you? No, he follows Revan in the LS ending simply because Revan is his Master, and he knows that his own robotic self-interest lies in sticking by Revan for as long as possible.

 

Jolee's outlook is actually fairly atypical. Most people aren't as radically neutral as that old coot, and given the chance to voice opinions on matters, they will. I mean, look at this thread: has anyone stepped back and said "I don't care, let everyone figure it out for themselves"? No. Jolee was leaning towards the LS, but he only acted when it became clear the entire galaxy was threatened. Any petty crimes and brutal tactics on Revan's part up until that point were met with silence and acceptance... if you and I were walking down the street, and you saw me mug a helpless widow, stealing her last earthly possessions, would you really just stand there doing nothing? No, I don't think you would, and I don't think many people would either. You'd either intervene on behalf of the weak old sow (LS) or help me out in exchange for a cut of the profits (DS). Jolee is an oddity, an abberation, like Switzerland or (to continue with the Hitler-analogy brought up before) Neville Chamberlain.

[shadowplay107]

canderous isnt really dark sided its just mandalorians naturally like violence and fighting. so if you were to compare him to other mandalorians then he would be neutral or maybe even good if the mandalorians were judging it seeing as how he is mandalore and a natural leader

[Guest The Architect]

Is murder evil? Is theft evil? Is torture evil? Is betrayal evil? Is preying on the weak evil? Is abuse of power evil? When you apply these things to selfishness, which is what the Sith are, then yes, they're immoral.

 

The dark side is supposed to = evil, since Lucas made it that way, and Sith = dark side thus Sith = evil, so stop trying to argue that they're not, Doros. The Jedi are hardly perfect but the Sith are evidently much worse. Please don't make me elaborate the unnecessary.

[Doros]

Is murder evil? Is theft evil? Is torture evil? Is betrayal evil? Is preying on the weak evil? Is abuse of power evil? When you apply these things to selfishness, which is what the Sith are, then yes, they're immoral.

 

The dark side is supposed to = evil, since Lucas made it that way, and Sith = dark side thus Sith = evil, so stop trying to argue that they're not, Doros. The Jedi are hardly perfect but the Sith are evidently much worse. Please don't make me elaborate the unnecessary.

 

Are these acts inherently evil? No. Murder can be killing, theft can be reappropriation, betrayal can be a realignment of interests in light of new opportunities, it all depends on how you justify (or rationalize) your actions. The Light Side is just as willing to get its hands dirty as the Dark Side (how many Stormtroopers did Luke Skywalker "murder" when he trespassed on and destroyed the Death Star? Han didn't bat an eye when he "stole" Imperial weapons and uniforms. You want to talk about betrayal, look at the final fight between Vader, Palpatine, and Luke!) and every "fault" the Dark Side has is simply the result of how we percieve their motivations, not the actions themselves. Like I said before, we've been conditioned to view collectivist actions wrapped in the language of "communal welfare" as "good" (another Five Year Plan? Well, it's all in the name of equality and justice, so alright), and self-interested actions prizing individual freedom as "evil" (how dare that corporation try and make a profit from it's services? People don't work so they can make money!), so we automatically look the other way when killing is done in the name of the masses, yet not when killing is done in the name of personal freedom.

 

Lucas thought he'd make the Sith evil, yes, but Lucas is a film director. He's not a political philosopher or an expert on social policy. His vision of good and evil was wrong, plain and simple. He tapped into the same collectivist rhetoric that dominated the Hollywood mindset during the 20th century, fell into the very same traps, took a cue from classic Westerns and adventure movies by playing everything up for melodrama, and it shows. Now you can feel free to sit by passively and take things as they are fed to you (oooo, that guy's wearing BLACK! I bet he's the bad guy!) but don't mistake surface propoganda for the end of the issue, my son. Some Sith may be rotten people, it's true, but the Jedi and their wicked philosophy of forced altruism and obedience are far, far worse.

 

The next time you watch Star Wars, ask yourself this: "Who is John Galt?"

Edited November 20, 2007 by Doros

[Musopticon?]

I don't know if I even want to go into that message, there's so many misconceptions and outright errors in it.

[Albino Anaconda]

yes but what about embracing love, compassion, forgiveness, joy, even regret. you can't go around saying you embrace your emotions when really you just embrace the darker ones and then say those who serve their lighter emotions don't embrace them. o:) o:)

 

Wasn't Anakin's first step towards the Dark Side falling in love?

[refuse]

Perhaps we are investing a wee bit too much into the semantics of the Force, light side, dark side, etc...

 

In the end of the day, Lucas envisioned them as two opposing philosophies, as a binary division, so clearly there are 'good' and 'bad' qualities in both. However, if we want to discuss this from a canonical basis, the Dark Side is meant to be the boogie man and the Light Side is mean to be the knight on a white horse. You might be supposed to feel sad for Vader in Episode VI, but that's because he's 'redeemed' himself to the light side.

 

If we want to discuss this otherwise, on a non-canonical basis, then any argument you put forward will essentially be correct, as you can assume, misunderstand or accept whatever you want.

 

The concept of 'grey/gray' Jedis, as far as I can tell, is one that tries to change the discourse into dismantling this binary divide, consolidating both opposing sides with a humanist twist. Or perhaps it's a step towards that Nietzschean 'Overman'. Who knows?

[Omelette]

yes but what about embracing love, compassion, forgiveness, joy, even regret. you can't go around saying you embrace your emotions when really you just embrace the darker ones and then say those who serve their lighter emotions don't embrace them. o:) o:)

 

Wasn't Anakin's first step towards the Dark Side falling in love?

And being stupid.

[Chill]

Jedi and Sith as philosophies are just that, philosophies. George defined them as 'good' and 'bad' - Jedi are suppose to be unselfish, saving lives of the others and bringing harmony into the galaxy, while the Sith do the things the opposite, they are selfish, working for themselves, taking care of number one, as well as, bringing chaos and exploiting other lifeforms. Now are the Jedi good and are the Sith bad?

 

In reality, the line between the two is very thin... people are shades of gray, and that is perhaps the best way to answer the question of the thread, I think. While Sith are selfish, and they kill for their selfish reasons and for the enjoyment, Jedis in the other hand, suppress their emotion to the point that they kill (when the need be) without any emotion. It seems to me none feel the real weight of such an act. And sometimes I even had a feeling that both the Sith and the Jedis are doing the best for themselves the first. So, to me, something in-between seems to be the right answer. But in the end, it all comes down to actions as a way to define someone, no? Taking risks and even doing some things that would normally be considered as evil seemed to be just the right thing to do in the longer runs (meaning as a good example of sacrificing a few for the benefit of the many). It is still evil thing to do, but a necessary evil sometimes. Bringing balance to 'good' and 'evil', when the two are the real opposite of the other, and when there's nothing in between, and not being one or the other extreme seems to work the best in the long runs, and I agree with refuse on that one it's the most humanist, isn't it? I do think that gray jedis are not fully neutral but stick to the lightside, even a little.

 

Jolee, in my opinion, was a good guy, but he wasn't 'fully' lightsided, but instead had an wise neutral approach, he isn't a stereotipical Jedi, and I got the feeling he was just trying to save the galaxy, and that titles, tags and personal goals wasn't really a thing that matters to him, and that makes him a true good guy (although again, he wasn't 'fully' ls but rather just a little bit).

 

It's hard to choose just one black or white when there's so many colors in between really. The end is what justifies the means. It does sound bad and evil when it comes from the mouths, doesn't it? But it really comes down to that simple.

But in the sense of the game, the best experience is played neutral, atleast to me, mainly becose you don't suffer the stereotipical 'good' or 'bad' tags and can simply do whatever you feel in necessary to save the galaxy and your own life.

 

Well, that is what I think. I enjoyed reading the other posts in this thread, there are some really good facts and points there... also, I'm very happy to be a part of the forums.

[Guest Accept]

Wasn't Anakin's first step towards the Dark Side falling in love?

That's the first step to the Dark Side for all of us.

[GaspardDeadlyAssailant]

Id go with dark because they get Force crush and all that stuff and a very nice power crystal . but sometimes ill be light just to be nice but i mostly go wiht dark.

[shadowplay107]

yes but what about embracing love, compassion, forgiveness, joy, even regret. you can't go around saying you embrace your emotions when really you just embrace the darker ones and then say those who serve their lighter emotions don't embrace them. o:) o:)

 

Wasn't Anakin's first step towards the Dark Side falling in love?

 

yes but what i mean is not love in a husband and wife way but love for humanity, nature etc etc

[GaspardDeadlyAssailant]

the jedi code is all against what the elders of the force ment for it to be thats y dark is the way to go

[Darth Osiris]

Yeah, and I'm sure these elder people wanted half the galaxy killing the other half....

Besides, from what I've read, some of you are a bit misguided. Love can be one's salvation, not one's end. Anyway, both extremes of the light and dark are thoroughly irritating. Grey is probably the best route.

[Lidda-Bit]

Kotor 1 I felt like you could be a respectable dark sider... like a ends justify the means anti-hero machiavelli's prince type. In Kotor 2 I just feel like a bitch when I try to play darkside

 

So for Kotor 1 I really enjoyed both but in kotor 2 I am purely lightside. I kind of understand the jedi code as well, with that much power at hand emotions would be very dangerous, heck emotions are dangerous enough in real life !

[walkerguy]

ls

[R'tas Vadum]

I've mostly prefer dark, but it is true that you come to a much better area of philosophy, when you take some of it from both sides. Such as the idea that if your killing someone, not just for yourself, but in killing them, you change something that now may not seem to matter, but will in the future.

 

Both sides have their strengths, and weaknesses. Even if you do chose to follow the light or dark side in the game, one of Kreia's comments at the end does put what you truely are in perspective, even if you have a preference of sides.

 

And as much as i do prefer the light over the dark, (after all, it is somewhat satisfying to be able to get a few more credits, some items, or anything, merely with a bit of manipulation.) both sides have certain things that call people to them. Ether you are after power, supremacy, or if you are just looking to help went needed.

[Darth Zial]

you guys are funny, The dark side is way better. My enemys will fall gasping for air in the wrath of my force choke...

[Lidda-Bit]

you guys are funny, The dark side is way better. My enemys will fall gasping for air in the wrath of my force choke...

 

 

Force choking people is not a good response to your mom not taking you to the mall